a new understanding of today, time and space.

now one may accuse me of being, out of touch or unrealistic or not
in tune with modern “sensibilities”… but I am and let us take a concrete
example…

the opioid crisis: many say that we are in a crisis because many people
are addicted to and die from opioids and we should limit this crisis
by removing opioid from use or keeping people away from opioids…
but that is the wrong way to go about it… that focuses on the symptoms of
the opioid crisis, not the cause of the crisis…

what is the cause? why do people take opioids? to take away pain, to feel nothing…
why would one do that? now I personally have taken opioids because of
multiple surgeries, spinal surgery, surgery to take out part of my colon,
ongoing back pain, I have taken opioids for such pains and yet, I didn’t
become addicted… I took them for present pain, not to take away
the pain of existence which is what this current opioid crises is about…
if we give people meaningful, purposeful lives, the opioid crises would
be over tomorrow… the people who take opioids wouldn’t have a reason
to try to cover up their alienation, their pain from modern existence…
and why would people want to cover up their alienation, their pain from modern
existence… what would cause the alienation, pain, existential pain, not physical
but pain from existence? people are alienated from modern society, alienated
because they have no voice in society, no voice in government, no voice in
economics, they have no justice within society, within the American system
we no longer have justice because justice is about equality, justice is about
every one being treated the same regardless of wealthy or status or position,
but that is no longer true, the wealthy and powerful can buy justice, they
are not treated the same because their wealth exempts them from being treated
equally… if I committed a crime and Oprah, for example, committed the exact
same crime, we would not be treated equally… she can buy justice for herself,
fancy lawyers and access to judges and DA’s will allows her to escape justice
that I because I don’t have wealth or power or position or privilege and I am
not treated equal as Oprah, I am not given justice that she can buy…
we are not equal in the eyes of the laws, justice bought is justice denied…
we no longer have an equal society, no longer have a just society,
no longer have an equality needed to make our society work anymore…
this failure to have a just equality means people disconnect, become alienated
from our system of government, become alienated from society… that is the cause
of our opioid crises… we no longer have a government, a society that notes or cares
to note what we want, or need… our government is no longer a government of the people,
for the people, by the people… our government is of the wealthy, for the wealthy,
by the wealthy… we live in an oligarchy, government of the wealthy but our
theory is we live in a government of the people, for the people, by the people…
we have a disconnect between the theory and the reality and that is causing
with people… and that disconnect is the reason people are taking opioids,
drugs, sex and rock and roll are means to escape from that disconnect, that
alienation… our love of knowing what the “stars” like tom cruise and
beyonce are doing is another way of dealing with the disconnect, the alienation…
why bother with knowing or caring what the government is doing or is society being
just because frankly it won’t affect me because I am not going to be treated equally
in any case… so why bother… so I take opioids because it really doesn’t matter if
do or not… I am not connected with society or the government or the culture in any
case… that disconnect is what is causing people to take drugs or drop out or drink
or what ever they do… get people back into the system, get people to reconnect
with society, with justice, with their culture and people will become connected
with and start engaging with society, justice, culture and they will stop
the drugs, drinking, sex and rock and roll…reconnect people with society
and many of the ills we complain about go away…this is the value of
what I am doing… attempting to find ways to reconnect people with values,
and with society by analysis of who we are and what are we to do…

we live in a nihilist society and I am trying to find a way to combat that…
our nihilism exists because we pursue money, profit over values like justice,
love, charity and hope… and that nihilism is also in part why people take drugs,
and drink and sex etc, etc…to recover who we are, we must first
understand that our modern society is a nihilistic one and what we can do
to remove or change that…we have a large, a very large task and
sometimes I think I am the only one who see’s this… oh, well…
the future begins…with a thought…

Kropotkin

after a very long day at work, I am attempting to philosophize…
we will see how this works…

it has been said that man pursues things… among the things that man/human beings
have pursued is knowledge… the first line in one of Aristotle books is just that…
Man pursues knowledge… so what is the list of things we can pursue?
if we are creatures that pursue things, then what do we pursue…
we can pursue such things that are material or idea’s or values among other things…

The Greeks for example, pursued arête, which is excellence… they pursued
excellence in everything they did… the word arête actually comes from military
excellence, the soldier being an excellent soldier was arête and then after the years passed
the word expanded to any activity where excellence could be found, like creating
drama’s and poetry, which during festivals had contest featuring drama and poetry…

Medieval man pursued god, or said another way, they pursued faith…

but humans aren’t limited to arête or faith as objects of pursuit…

humans can pursue a great many things like a material thing like cars or money
or TV’s… a human can pursue a non-material thing like fame or status…
a human can also pursue something like “vices” which would be drugs, sex, gambling,
as some common “vices”

but we also have “traditional” pursuits likes the pursuit of happiness, love or knowledge

and then you have different pursuits like the pursuit of experiences and the pursuit
of being first or the thrill of victory…

we have many different motivations that drive people and that is what complicates
the idea of, what is the meaning of life? because the meaning of life can be what motivates
one into action and gives meaning to that action…

we can pursue such things as justice, love, truth, values like this can also be
pursued… this is important to understand that we can pursue values like hope,
honor, charity, justice, love, but we only pursue the higher values… for there
is no point to pursue lower values like anger, hate, despair, violence… they
are pointless, empty values that offer us nothing… but the higher values…
they can create meaning, give our life purpose in pursuing those higher values…
like justice, and truth and love… they can create a vision of who we are and what
we need to do…

personally, I am not driven by fame or money or status… I pursue the truth…
finding knowledge, understanding is what is what drives me… I want to know…

so what drives you?

what creates meaning for you?

Kropotkin

Do you have any evidence for this claim Peter?

“Babies have three instinctive fears, of snakes, of the dark and of falling.”

I find the snake part especially to be questionable because I remember liking and getting excited about snakes as a child.

I think you have a misunderstanding of what “we” are. We are not made of atoms but of consciousness. Consciousness, as far as we know, requires atoms to exist, but consciousness itself is not atoms, and your consciousness is you, not your body nor your make up. If your consciousness could hypothetically exist as energy, and external from your body, would you say that you no longer exist?

Again, the atoms have nothing to do with you except for the fact that you require them to be conscious. Atoms have no history because history has to be recorded.

From the Ayn Rand Lexicon:
“Existence exists—and the act of grasping that statement implies two corollary axioms: that something exists which one perceives and that one exists possessing consciousness, consciousness being the faculty of perceiving that which exists.”

You seem to be claiming that atoms exist outside of consciousness. They don’t. They can’t exist unless someone is perceiving them, and nobody has perceived and recorded the life of the atoms of JFK, Plato, or Julius Caesar so they literally have no history. We can make conjecture or supposition of their history, but nobody can actually perceive it which is why such history does not exist.

You sound like me when I used to frequent this forum in my early 20’s lol. I am still a holist, so I want to like what you are saying here, especially in the OP which I would have considered posting on my facebook wall and quoting you, with your permission, but you advocated voting, which I am against. You also make all kinds of unfounded claims about God and the need for a prime mover and assume that the big bang theory is correct. There is no need for a prime mover. Things move independently of that. For example, atoms vibrate. That has nothing to do with the big bang even if it does exist which is in question. You probably shouldn’t say anything in a philosophy forum that you can’t prove using either reasoning or evidence or preferably, both.

the motivations that drive us are diverse and exist within
both the environment and within us…

as a child, you are deprived of food, then, maybe, as a adult
you are driven to seek out food… become a foodie perhaps…

that which we seek, be it knowledge or love or justice or sensory
experiences are the foundations of the things we do and the things we
seek…I have no desire to have money and that doesn’t drive me
and others the drive for money is ALL they think about… it doesn’t make us,
either of us wrong, just different…

there is no way that I can tell, to say one drive is better or worse, then
any other drive… but these drives complicate our understanding
of the human being… we have a rough idea of who, what, when, where, why
and how of the human being… but that understanding takes a beating when
we try to include aspects of the human nature, emotions for example and
that which drives us to action…or what we search for…

the motivations of the human being is as individual as we are
and as hard to understand as we are…

I don’t believe we can ever really, truly grasp the human being until
we begin to understand the motivations and drives of human beings…

so what drives you?

Kropotkin

Then you have significantly more to “know” about you.

K: actually, I am atheist and don’t believe in god or the need for a prime mover…
unless you have a better idea, the big bang still fits the bill as the best answer as
to what began the universe…and yes, atoms vibrate… AND…there is nothing
to add to this… the atoms vibrate and…it doesn’t change anything if they vibrate…

now as far as the last part goes, I am not attempting to “prove” anything either by reasoning
or evidence… I am simply attempting to understand human beings and the human experience…

you have to understand before you can prove…

Kropotkin

K: we are made of atoms… consciousness is another different mess I have yet to explore…
the problem you have is, what is consciousness? how do you define consciousness?
point out where exactly in the human body does consciousness exists? if you say the mind,
I have seen human brains, where exactly in the brain does consciousness exist?
to makes existence “consciousness” has it owns problems and if you have studied
the problem, you would know what they are… so…

Kropotkin

I don’t have a better idea than the big bang, but I do have one that is equally as good. Perhaps the universe, rather than exploding, was inflated like a balloon. Perhaps matter and energy were created and the force of doing such inflated space time beyond the point of a singularity. There is also the possibility that the universe has always existed. To me, the big bang and God are both attempts to try to get around our incapability to grasp infinity. There is no logical reason why the universe has to have been created, so there is no logical reason to attempt to explain its creation. Also, the big bang is not science because it is not falsifiable.

That consciousness exists is an axiom. The fact that you are typing here proves that you are assuming that it does.

"When a savage who has not learned to speak declares that existence must be proved, he is asking you to prove it by means of non-existence—when he declares that your consciousness must be proved, he is asking you to prove it by means of unconsciousness—he is asking you to step into a void outside of existence and consciousness to give him proof of both—he is asking you to become a zero gaining knowledge about a zero.

When he declares that an axiom is a matter of arbitrary choice and he doesn’t choose to accept the axiom that he exists, he blanks out the fact that he has accepted it by uttering that sentence, that the only way to reject it is to shut one’s mouth, expound no theories and die." -Ayn Rand from “The New Intellectuals”

Not to interrupt, but briefly, if not created, then how did it get here?

Remember,

:sunglasses:

K: I didn’t ask if consciousness existed, I asked what it was and where do you find it?
which body part had it? if I dissect you, where would I find consciousness?

Kropotkin

deleted

There is an actual answer to that (not to get too deep into it). But one could ask, “Exactly where in your PC is the application program?” And one could say, “It is in the computer’s memory”. And that would be true, but where in the memory? - different places at different times and in different pieces. If not stored on disc, where does it go when the computer is turned off?

To someone who had no idea of how computers worked, those might be mysterious questions. The same is true for those who have no idea how their brain works. If you don’t know enough about a computer, no answer will be very revealing and is always questionable. The same is true when you don’t know enough about your brain: “Your consciousness exists in your memory”, but what did that really tell you and how could you know the truth of it either way?

K: personally, I have no idea where the computer memory is, but, but many
people do know where the memory is and they build computers knowing this
fact… (I am researching building my own computer, so this is rather relevant)
but no one, not doctors or scientist or philosophers knows where consciousness exists…
do the research and you will read, “it is believed that consciousness exists in…”
does consciousness exists in your memory? no one knows… that is the point…
no one knows…ask your local neighborhood doctor and they have no idea…
so, I am still waiting for an answer… where does consciousness exist?

Kropotkin

You are seriously mistaken about that, but why did you even think such was true?

I’m thinking that if there is argument concerning it, a lack of consensus, you take that as “no one knows”. If ten people are arguing, couldn’t one of them actually be right?

Of course someone knows. Many people know. But it is a sensitive, and even religious and spiritual issue, so of course people are going to fear resolution and thus argue. Is the Earth flat? It took hundreds of years and photographic evidence of such a solidly concrete thing in order to convince everyone - to end the debate. What is it going to take to convince the whole world of mostly not-very-bright people exactly what consciousness is, much less where it is?

Who would you believe? How could you ever possibly know the truth of it, except to take the word of a consensus of others. Which priesthood are you going to accept as the holy one?

There are only two choices; logically figure things out for yourself or take the word of others. Most people can’t do either. Thus they are always arguing, especially over things that they cannot even take a picture of.

You are seriously mistaken about that, but why did you even think such was true?

[quote=“Peter Kropotkin”]
do the research and you will read, “it is believed that consciousness exists in…”
does consciousness exists in your memory? no one knows… that is the point…
no one knows…ask your local neighborhood doctor and they have no idea…
so, I am still waiting for an answer… where does consciousness exist?

J: I’m thinking that if there is argument concerning it, a lack of consensus, you take that as “no one knows”. If ten people are arguing, couldn’t one of them actually be right?

Of course someone knows. Many people know. But it is a sensitive, and even religious and spiritual issue, so of course people are going to fear resolution and thus argue. Is the Earth flat? It took hundreds of years and photographic evidence of such a solidly concrete thing in order to convince everyone - to end the debate. What is it going to take to convince the whole world of mostly not-very-bright people exactly what consciousness is, much less where it is?

K: ok, great, where is consciousness? simply enough question…
where is it?

Kropotkin

I return from mundane questions to my study of the enlightenment…

one thing I note is that “the philophes”, the name they gave themselves during
the enlightenment, study theory for the use of action…

we have action, but very little theory and that is our weakness…
we must have theory AS WELL as action for us to properly achieve or
undertake something… it is the theory of who we are and what we are to do
that is weak and that is part of our failure…for it requires both action AND
theory for anything to be accomplished and we have action but no theory and
until we work out theories that underline whatever action we wish to do, we shall
be spinning our wheels…

Kropotkin

this most ancient of questions lie at the heart of the modern world,

in what am I to have faith in?

the old forms of god/gods and religion has been eroded away… swept away by
science and doubt…

how can I have faith in science? all science is facts and facts change
single day… what is “true” today is false tomorrow and I must believe/have faith in
something that is more permanent… something that will be not only today but tomorrow…

this leads back to our motivation post… what motivates us? is it truth or justice or
material good or fame? what are we to have faith in, what are we to believe is a worthy
goal to pursue? and once again, two distinct and separate questions become one…

so, brave soul, answer me this…

in what do I have faith in?

be honest, what do you have faith in?

Kropotkin