Weakness is strength??

"pilgrim-seeker_tom

lol Are you telling me that you intuited rage in my statement? You may say no but then my next question would be: Why then would you insert the word rage into the post?

Am I capable of experiencing rage? Yes I am as I would suppose most are. Terrorism attacks enrage me, pedophiles enrage me when they have destroyed the psychic lives of children, rapists enrage me for the same reason, ad continuum. Does that mean that I would go out and murder in the name of justice? Probably not but who really knows what one is capable of under certain circumstances. But it is a good thing to try to be aware of what we are capable of…you know, that dark side. Close our eyes to it and we may be doomed.

I am not a buddhist.

Imagination is wonderful, awesome, but I am not quite sure that it is more important than knowledge but I may be wrong. I might like to think of them as running nose to nose. But then again, a lot of knowledge has come into existence through the use of one’s imagination, wondering and musing.

I have thought and felt the same thing at times. At the same time, I think that this way of thinking and human experience is at least in part due to the little universe which we each have within us, the unconscious, the subconscious, that other self somewhere within which knows how to trust and to be in harmony with the outer universe.

So, when the universe sends (as you implied) terrorists your way and your part of the world and different parts of the world are destroyed and devastated, human lives are crushed and blown up, please tell me in what way that is the universe intending to help you?

We do not always realize what it is that we are saying when we are saying it? So, how is that the universe helping us? I do not want rationalizations - I am looking for truth.

lol Do you mean to say in the same way that some posters in here speak their own truth? Would ranting and raving be a part of speaking truth?

I do agree with the above though with one qualification. Genuine truth seekers speak their truth with a sense of responsibility and care - or do they not?

Yes, it may be. It may also be instructive and constructive - and a real eye opener if we can be objective and not white wash what IS.
It is ALSO akin to power. It just depends within whose hands, heart and mind it is being held.

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Will you please clarify what YOU mean by the above. I mean really respond to it.

I think both must be true in different ways. How 'bout this: Phyllo is right in that we all must be challenged in order to grow (no pain, no gain), but you’re right Mags in that we all must have a support system in order to grow. Going out and meeting the challenges of un-like minded people is the gathering of material for growth. Returning to your peers and support group is how to best utilize that material for growth. Without material, there isn’t much to grow on, even if you have the best support group in the world. But without a support group, it’s difficult to know how to utilize the material for your own growth, even if you have an iron resolve to do so. The support group provides guidance, a different (perhaps objective) perspective, and also rejuvinates your confidence in case the challenges take too much of a toll on you.

Are you sure of that, Pilgrim? I’ll often nibble from people’s philosophies, but if I don’t return for more, it’s only because I’m at a huge buffet and all I can do to fill my plate is nibble on a bit of this and a bit of that.

And if you were to split that up into, let’s say, 10 words (or more)… what would it be?

I think it’s pretty rare that personal stuff doesn’t impinge on human experience in general. What experience does a person go through that another can’t relate to to some degree?

I suppose certain groups of people can boast that they’ve had experiences in life which I will never have: what it’s like to be a blind man, what it’s like to be a woman giving birth… but even then, the sharing of these experiences are common at least within that group.

If there’s one thing I’ve learned about philosophy, the main subject of this forum, it’s that any topic can be made into philosophy, especially personal experiences.

I think the way Einstein meant that phrase wasn’t in the mutually exclusive sense–either knowledge or imagination–but in the sense of what is needed for what. Imagination is needed for knowledge, it’s needed for understanding. It’s like I was explaining to Magnus Anderson the other day: just in order to understand the word “apple”, one must bring to their imagination the idea of an apple–otherwise there’s no comprehension at all–and just the same, I think in order to understand the knowledge we possess, we must conceptualize that knowledge in our imagination. So imagination is more important than knowledge in the sense that it is needed for knowledge, and if we’re lucky, can bring us beyond knowledge.

On truth seekers: I think I would have called myself a truth seeker in my youth, but one of the most profound truths I ever stumbled across is that half the time, you’ve gotta invent your own truth. In science, in engineering, in justice and law, it’s best to be a truth seeker–let your beliefs be guided by evidence–but there are so many areas of life in which being a truth inventor is best–and in many of them, the only thing to be. I’m thinking of areas in life in which nothing is really a fact of the matter. Take mental health for example. Are you a glass is half full person or a glass is half empty person? Is there a fact of the matter? The whole crux of this expression is that there isn’t, and that what that leaves us with is a choice, a couple of perspective to select. Now, the choice is not based on facts or evidence. We suddenly realize in this moment that the truth depends on what we want it to be, yet we can still be guided by a principle: mental health. What would be more healthy? To see the glass as half empty or half full? Or take as another example: criticism. Someone may harshly criticize you and make you feel small. But what we often do, and this is normal and healthy, is try at once to accept the criticism (if you see little kernels of truth in it) and to re-think it in a more positive way, a way that doesn’t make you feel small or belittled. Judging a person or yourself on their/your character flaws is far removed from the realm of facts and evidence, and very much in the realm of inventing truth–the skill here being to simply recognize what truth counts as healthy.

Will you please clarify what YOU mean by the above. I mean really respond to it.
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What word(s) is the source of your confusion? or … do you simply want more words before you deploy your battering ram.

He will imagine it completely from his own limited perspective.

He can’t get out of the sack that confines his imagination unless someone shows him some other ways of imagining.

But it’s an unimaginably complex paradox, relieve it’s limit causes the imago loose the power of it’s focus.

How?

The inverse proportionality in play .

I think that the “like-minded people” concept goes beyond simply getting support and avoiding negative and toxic interactions. It’s also a way of avoiding points of view and ideas that you don’t agree with. This includes POVs and ideas which are reasonable and unreasonable. And it also includes POVs and ideas which are abhorrent and ought to be confronted.

This weekend I was reading about the victims of the Las Vegas shooting … they are getting hate messages on social media from conspiracy theorists who are calling them fakers and actors.
Those conspiracy theorists are hanging out with like-minded people. They are living in a bubble that feeds their particular thinking patterns. The internet makes it easier than ever.

Meno … yet another example of your keen insight. =D>

Let me take your thought one step further … it starts with “loose the power of it’s focus” … it progresses to the death of the prior "image (ination) … a necessary outcome.

The cycle … birth/death/birth/death/birth/death ad infinitum is self evident in nature.

NT

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The same cycle is self evident in our daily lives … I favour St Augustine’s example … conversation

In human conversation the sound of each word we utter must die in order to create a womb for the gestation of the next sound. The process happens so fast we are unaware of the cycle.

The first twelve words suffice. Then next 14 are a cop out. I don’t see how the first 12 amount to ‘help’ though.

I’m thinking maybe Arc is onto something (as much of a shock as that is! ).

Hey!

So the take home message is: you gotta have both–you’ve got to challenge yourself with exposure to opposing, possibly disconcerting, points of view, but at the same time, you need a support group in order to balance yourself out with external, possibly objective, points of view. The groupthink that occurs with prejudices and biases, like those accusing the Vegas shooting victims, could probably do with a few members of the group going out to seek different points of view and challenge their original thoughts.

Do you think if this happens, the group’s original prejudices and biases will tend to dilute and depolarize?

Huh?

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Gib … you may be right … though I can’t imagine what … tried imagining the shock you mentioned … come up blank as well. Will try again later.

You’re on to something with cop out though … not sure if I was just being lazy or simply not in the mood … as in didn’t see any merit in making the effort … still don’t.

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Huh?

You’ll need to contact the author of the quote(paraphrased) for an explanation … now that will require some imagination.

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St Augustine … Confessions

Why did I mention the quote from Augustine?

In the process of awakening … expanded awareness … expanded consciousness … stuff that we have clung to … perhaps for a very long time … must pass away … fade into the shadows of memory … for a higher level of consciousness to replace the former.

Well, let’s not worry about that. Your other words:

“To be true to my personal conviction … imagination is superior to knowledge”

…are supposed to be an expansion of “help”. So are you asking for help to stay true to your personal convictions?

I mean that in the nicest way possible, of course.

Yes. I think that they will have to rethink based on the input from other people. Their adaption could be to become more disconnected and isolated or to absorb the input and become more moderate. The hard-core members will probably remain the same or become even more extreme but the rest will either stay if the median beliefs of the group change or they will leave the group.

Gib … I only have one conviction I really care about … I shared it in another OP in response to a question from you.

Your comments remind me of Elijah … the OT guy. Philosophy has been embedded in religion for a very long time … perhaps since the beginning.

Somewhere near the Biblical Mount Carmel event Elijah said …

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We know the religious intention of his words … what are the philosophical implications?

A “will” divided is weaker (limp along) than a single unified will. Yes or no?

Of course! A will divided will conflict with itself stifling its own goals. Is that what this thread is about?

Huh?

A “will” divided points to a reluctant saint.