But but… zinnat, you can’t even mention the interconnectedness of global anything without being labeled an elitist, or a shill of the illuminati, or an oppressor of the masses. It’s all “America First” without any regard to reality - except the alternate reality that seems to be made more of wishful thinking than connection to fact. Currently, there is little or no dialog between nation states in devising plausible (read doable) solutions to our shared reality. Why? Because we have no intention of compromising. It’s our way or the highway. We want simple answers while blithely ignoring the complexity. You are right that regardless all the hulaballoo, there will be an evening effect over time. But Americans will do so unwillingly, kicking and screaming all the way.
Zinnat
Are you ready to lead that kind of social life?
What is that kind of social life?
Tentative
We want simple answers while blithely ignoring the complexity.
Everything with you is complexity. There are simple answers to chip away at all the complexities, to whittle them back down to the basics.
People who think they deserve more than other people make complexity, when one is considered self-denial, when practicality means two $80,000 cars, instead of one $15,000 car, when it must be 6 lbs. of prime rib instead of 2 lbs. of ground beef, when used means an embarrassing poverty, when being normal or average is not good enough, when everything must be a self-serving, showy superiority, that’s when life gets complex because a lot of finagling had to be done to keep life so out of kilter.
But but… zinnat, you can’t even mention the interconnectedness of global anything without being labeled an elitist, or a shill of the illuminati, or an oppressor of the masses. It’s all “America First” without any regard to reality - except the alternate reality that seems to be made more of wishful thinking than connection to fact. Currently, there is little or no dialog between nation states in devising plausible (read doable) solutions to our shared reality. Why? Because we have no intention of compromising. It’s our way or the highway. We want simple answers while blithely ignoring the complexity. You are right that regardless all the hulaballoo, there will be an evening effect over time. But Americans will do so unwillingly, kicking and screaming all the way.
I am not an elitist by mindset but on the other hand it is also a reality that everyone or everything in this world is not the same. It cannot be. They are bound to be somewhat different in all aspects. The matter is only the degree of differences. Secondly, if you go by the original definition of illumunati, it is actually the opposite of oppressor of the masses.
There is nothing wrong in America first but everything has its limits and it is wise to understand the limits of all things. If one goes beyond the reasonable limits, it will come back to haunt itself sooner or later.
But, i want to make one point here for sure, even at the cost of making some people angry. US or at least its establishment, is imbued with some sort of superiority complex for sure. That applies to its citizens also, though neither to all nor to that extent but something of that kind is certainly there in their mindset. This BIG DADDY syndrome is so deeply amalgamated in US establishment mindset, they cannot or do not want to see the world without that prism. That applies to other developed countries also but certainly not to that extent. Their prism is not that much thick and they are even ready to let go that too.
Everyone has to make compromises, more or less, whether US or any other country. Look at what Trump said about China or Mexico before becoming a president and how he behaved towards those after becoming a president. Has he stopped imports from China or Mexico? Or he compelled China to appreciate its currency? No, simply because he realizes that neither these things can be done nor in the real overall interest of US.
Speeches can be done in poetry when one has to use hardcore prose when it comes to actual governance.
with love,
sanjay
What is that kind of social life?
Where govt would tell you that how much children you can have like China.
Where the leaders of political opposition would be sent to rot in the prisons like Russia.
Where anti establishment protesters can be killed by assault rifles and tanks like Tiananmen Square of China.
You can still lead the life more or less you want in a capitalism and even shout against establishment too, but you cannot even whisper otherwise. What would you prefer?
with love,
sanjay
Where govt would tell you that how much children you can have like China.
Where the leaders of political opposition would be sent to rot in the prisons like Russia.
Where anti establishment protesters can be killed by assault rifles and tanks like Tiananmen Square of China.
I believe that all of these situations could quite easily happen here in the USA in the near future.
Any type of outside established government political opposition that gained traction here would be met with I think worse than imprisonment, more like murder. We only have two recognized parties here, in other words, other political parties are not taken seriously for they wield no major power in Washington, DC or with the majority of citizens…should that change and other real challengers took root here in the USA which has never happened before, those opposition leaders would either be falsely imprisoned, disappear, or be found dead. And there haven’t been any anti-government protests here since Vietnam where…
1968, June 4–5. The hope of the antiwar movement, presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy assassinated after celebrating victory in the California primary. He dies the next morning, June 6.
Resistance to the established political machine shot dead.
- Kent State University, Ohio, May 4: Kent State Shootings: U.S. National Guard kill four young people during a demonstration. As a result, four million students go on strike at more than 450 universities and colleges.
- April 24. Peaceful Vietnam War Out Now rally on the National Mall, Washington, D.C., with 200,000 calling for an end to the Vietnam War, 156,000 participate in the largest demonstration so far on the West Coast, in San Francisco.[28]
April 26. More militant attempts in Washington, D. C. to shut down the government are futile against 5,000 police and 12,000 troops.[citation needed]
May 3–5, May Day Protests. Planned by Rennie Davis and Jerry Coffin of the War Resisters League, later joined by Michael Lerner; militant mass-action tries to shut down the government in Washington, D.C. 12,614 arrested, a record in American history.
These were protests to stop war, rather than to unseat the established government, people were still killed by military and over 12,000 were arrested. If there were major protests against the government itself, it’d turn ugly real fast and martial law would be declared.
Wendy, your data is 30 years old.
Who cares?
The poor exist because of those that rule, control, and run society from authority. There is no getting rid of poverty in any given society because it simply couldn’t exist without it, for society to exist as it does now poverty must also. Society and poverty work together in tantamount.
I always find these discussions interesting because whenever anybody talks about poverty or the poor there is always some form of dehumanization involved even by the so called advocates that claim to represent them.
Zero, I think the main idea is that people who are taking care of themselves kind of expect other people to take care of themselves.
Zero, I think the main idea is that people who are taking care of themselves kind of expect other people to take care of themselves.
I think the main idea is that you create an environment where some are unable to take care of themselves by engineered design and then to add insult to injury tell them they’re lazy deserving to be poor from the powerful segments of society through dehumanization when they demand more independence, protections, opportunities, or privileges. By dehumanization you diminish their ability to rebel, lash out, or have any real public voice. By dehumanization you have them boxed in. It is successful ongoing tactic and strategy by those in power along with their obedient underlings as history can attest.
That whole mindset of, “someone is pulling the strings and is preventing me from living up to my potential” is the kind of mental slavery that Bob Marley was talking about. None but ourselves can free our minds. It just seems so childish to me. Like the view that someone else can change nature, and that if they could, that they ought do it to their detriment and to the benefit of someone else. It doesn’t put any responsibility on the individual. I know guys who’ve slept in cars and worked 7 days a week, then moved to weekly motels and gotten better jobs, and then who’ve ended up buying homes and funding retirement plans.
When I see someone doing all that and then they tell me that the man is holding them down, maybe I’ll change my mind. But the notion that you ought be handed a life with some leisure, some vacation time, someone else paying your doctor bills, someone ensuring that you own a home and can retire by simply putting in your 40 hours at a job any old job you find is well…as you know…a bit unrealistic.
Like not to be personal, but what do you contribute to society? Does the value of what you do for humanity outweigh the rewards that you’re receiving?
How old are you? Have you put any money into savings for your own future?
Do you drink sodas or bottled water? Do you smoke cigarettes? Own pets and buy them food? Do you spend money on alcohol or drugs?
If you do any of those things, then what you’ve done is chosen to forego your ability to live comfortably and/or invest in yourself in lieu or supporting corporations that produce soda, cigarettes, dog food and alcohol.
No one makes you do that.
Can you honestly say that you haven’t wasted 4 or 5 dollars a day on things that you don’t really need? That’s a lot of money over time. You could have been buying gold, or bonds, or CD’s, or putting that into a money market account, or taking all the time you’ve spent reading propaganda and instead reading about how to effectively invest, and then BOOM, all these problem that you say are being imposed on you by others wouldn’t even be present.
I think in a lot of cases that people aren’t willing to make any sacrifices at all, and feel as though they should be entitled to the kind of amenities that a parent might provide for a teenager. Housing, transportation, communication, healthcare, etc. But if it’s possible at all that you could have gotten those yourself but that you chose otherwise, then you’ve not really asking someone else to provide for your necessities, you’re asking them to buy your dog food, cigarettes, alcohol and sodas.
Please open your mind for just a second and realize that no matter what argument you give, no one is going to solve your problems for you. You’re going to have to do it yourself. I suspect that you’re in your mid 20s, you’ve still got time to aggressively start building yourself a secure future. The longer you wait the harder it will be and the less compelling your excuses for not doing so well be.
Also lol@ the irony of a Machiavellian victim asking for handouts. Seriously man. You’re entertaining, but your world view isn’t reflective of the actual world in many cases. I don’t mean to trigger you by saying that, but I honestly believe…no…I know that you’re intelligent enough to do what you gotta do to come up in the world. If you were a moron for real I wouldn’t bother saying these things to you.
Why don’t you get a checking account, and prioritize some money toward making a regular bank draft to contribute to your future? If the money comes out and you can’t afford dog food or cigarettes, then that means you can’t afford those things so you either have to earn more or stop buying those things.
50 bucks in dog food a month, distributed instead across a diverse set of stable dividend stocks, over 30 years will make sure that you don’t eat dog food yourself when you’re too old to work. You can have that…or you can have a dog now. But it’s your choice, not something that’s being imposed on you.
That whole mindset of, “someone is pulling the strings and is preventing me from living up to my potential” is the kind of mental slavery that Bob Marley was talking about. None but ourselves can free our minds. It just seems so childish to me. Like the view that someone else can change nature, and that if they could, that they ought do it to their detriment and to the benefit of someone else. It doesn’t put any responsibility on the individual. I know guys who’ve slept in cars and worked 7 days a week, then moved to weekly motels and gotten better jobs, and then who’ve ended up buying homes and funding retirement plans.
When I see someone doing all that and then they tell me that the man is holding them down, maybe I’ll change my mind. But the notion that you ought be handed a life with some leisure, some vacation time, someone else paying your doctor bills, someone ensuring that you own a home and can retire by simply putting in your 40 hours at a job any old job you find is well…as you know…a bit unrealistic.
Nobody understands the mindset until they’re on the opposite side of the line experiencing it themselves. This is why people who have everything don’t understand this perspective because they’ve never experienced otherwise. It’s only a slave mentality embraced if individuals don’t fight back. I’ve known maybe four individuals in my life who have died living on the street. You can name examples and so can I. Many individuals work hard and make constant sacrifices only to achieve nothing in the end, hard work or sacrifice guarantees nothing. There is no guarantee of anything.
It’s not true that people in one position have necessarily never experienced the other.
It’s not true that people in one position have necessarily never experienced the other.
There are a few rare exceptions but in no way constitutes a majority of people.
So try and think like the ones that do and see what happens.
So try and think like the ones that do and see what happens.
Yeah, if it was that easy there would be no poverty and everybody would be doing it.
I work for a small city in the U. S. I meet a fair number of poor people through my job. Many are on drugs. Some are mentally ill. Most have a debilitating reliance on anything or anyone but themselves. Many assume that the government will and should take care of their everyday needs, often because they have no friends or no friends with any kind of resources. Their families have sometimes disowned them - not because they are poor but because they are drug addicts and/or criminals.
I heard a story yesterday. There is a very successful restaurant in town. The wife of one of the owners cleans dorm rooms at a local college. Financially, she doesn’t have to work at all. She loves her job. My guess is that health insurance is a major reason she works, but she and her husband would be fine if she didn’t work at all or if she worked in the restaurant. They are both immigrants to this country.
I have known few poor people who could not clean dorm rooms for a living. One big problem that these poor people seem to have is that they find it difficult to pass background checks, for employment or for housing. They won’t usually bother to apply for a job that requires a drug test. I know landlords that can overlook one eviction. But multiple evictions and a rap sheet makes it difficult. So one reason they live in unsafe and unacceptable apartments is that decent landlords won’t rent to them. It’s not really the amount of rent charged.
Overall, in my experience, a great many people who are poor are not poor because of government policies. They are poor because they have not, for a variety of reasons, made the choices that will allow them to escape poverty - or to have avoided it. They are not all born poor. Most of the poor people I encounter are white. That’s just due to the demographics where I work.
There are some government policies that produce programs to help these people. few have any positive effect in the long run. That’s because there doesn’t seem to be much in the way of policies that change the way these people think and the decisions they make.
What policies would work?
Classic argument of poor people choosing or creating their own poverty bullshit. What really makes this thread funny is that its creator is supposedly a political liberal that call themselves champions or defenders of the poor. He must be a garden variety limousine liberal.
I’m not talking about rising through the ranks at your present job. I’m talking about getting a better job. A few years ago, a large employer closed down where I live. The state offered a variety of training programs for the displaced workers. Almost no one availed themselves of those programs. Of any of them. I mean, out of hundreds, maybe one or two.
Those who remain unskilled when they have the opportunity to gain job skills have to take some responsibility for their lives. I’m not saying that this is the whole story. I am saying that america never promised people that it would be handed to them.
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Doesn’t talk about failing public educational systems of the United States for the general population.
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Doesn’t talk about the negative aspects of deindustrialization, foreign importation of workers, automation, stagnant wages, increased taxes, increasingly temp economy, poor access to healthcare, or jobs being outsourced overseas.
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Doesn’t talk about the criminalization of just about everything where felons for the large part are barred from the workforce through hiring discrimination. There is virtually no kind of national felon workforce rehabilitation program in place. If you’re a felon you’re practically an open target to be discriminated against.
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Wants to lump a majority of poor people with drug or substance abusers and the mentally ill.
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Wants to remind everybody that everything is the fault of poor people only and that poor people only have themselves to blame for their plight.