Patriotism

So other people don’t know that or don’t believe that’s the scope of the gesture or that it can be so limited.

And now the scope has grown since it’s no longer just one specific incident. Now, it’s also about Trump. :confusion-shrug:

I did interpret the recent wave of kneeling as intending something different from the initial act by Kaepernick, though I don’t think it was so much anti-Trump as a demonstration of solidarity for the right to speak and protest (which was incidentally opposed to Trump’s position that football players should have no right to express political opinions, and should be fired for attempting to do so).

Yes that’s true, and I think that’s been communicated as well and understood fairly well, except for those that are polarized on the right

That “right to speak and protest” was there at the original incident. In fact, I noticed that lots of the discussions ignored the police treatment of blacks and instead focused on things like “what can a contract athlete do”, “is it legitimate for a wealthy athlete to criticize the system that pays him”, etc.

In the discussion surrounding it, I agree, but I meant just in the intent of the players. Kaepernick’s intent in doing what he did probably wasn’t to start a discussion about his right to do what he did. He acted in protest of the government, and in the ensuing discussion people questioned his right to do so and the legitimacy of his protest. The second wave of protests, by contrast, was intended to be about that discussion.

Yes, let’s discuss the government’s stance on violence and it only condones violence in cases of public safety, war, and self-defense. The most recent incident with a football player and the police who tackled him outside of a bar had to do with the player fleeing the scene of a crime once the police entered the bar? Can people up and flee from a police investigation?

I’d very much like to discuss the facts that led to the initial bent knee. Let’s discuss the specifics of what set this whole fiasco off for I’d very much enjoy proving that this entire enterprise of protest is not founded on any factual cases of white on black police brutality, it’s based on emotional reactions to deceptions propagated by a divisive media.

That’s not saying much since all totalitarian states make the same claim - concentration camps, death squads, secret police, torture, etc are all there purely for noble reasons.

The USA which is what we are talking about has enacted those travesties just to pass the time?

Your statement suggested that all violence used by the state is always fair and correct. But blacks claim that the police do not treat them fairly. So how do you respond to their claim? It’s certainly possible that some state violence is unfair and morally wrong. When is it unfair and wrong?

Wendy, I think your methodology for approaching the question of race-biased police violence is flawed. You point to anecdotes, but those tell you basically nothing about what’s going on – and note this cuts both ways: anecdotes are emotional and rhetorical, and both sides use them as such.

But if you look at the rate at which blacks vs. whites are killed in police custody, targeted by police, get justice for police misconduct, are sentenced to death at trial, etc. etc., there are pretty clear statistical trends that support the narrative that racial bias plays a role. That’s different from saying every police killing is solely attributable to racism. It’s a more modest claim: across all society, black people face a disproportionate burden from unjust and unwarranted police violence.

I found this rundown of studies on the issue to be surprisingly good, providing a good set of summaries with references from reputable sources, pointing out some weaknesses, and including some studies that found no bias. And I’m sure we can come up with additional flaws and with hypotheses that fit these findings without using racial bias as an explanation. But they should move your priors, and this is a much better place to start than a handful of anecdotes.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEPS5ArYaKE[/youtube]

Sounds racist because it doesn’t validate the ethno-masochism among Whites.

Start a thread that highlights the article. I have much to make mention of and this is your evidence which I will gladly pick apart in light of a debate.

If blacks commit more crimes and are arrested for those crimes, then there would be disparities between the number of whites and blacks killed in police custody, identified as perpetrators (rather than targeted by police), and are sentenced to death (they commit more homicides than whites)based solely on their rates of criminal behavior. Whoever commits more crime is going to have the highest incidents in all aspects of the criminal justice system. If black Americans abided by the laws and listened to the police, the numbers of what you are trying to justify as bias would disappear.

Also, what anecdotes are you referring to?

I only made a general comment on what types of violence the government condones, done by the government, public servants of the government, and its citizens. You are the one who brought up injustices enacted by other governments which has nothing to do with the USA.

I only pointed out that every government considers their use of violence to be essential for public safety. For some reason you call some of it “injustice”. Why is some of it injustice and some of it not injustice?

Sorry, those were all just examples of yours. Happy?

You cited specifics for a reason, I get it, but what I cited as violence that the USA government condones are not confined to the government itself or enacted by the government only which you failed to notice. Self defense types of violence may be enacted by citizens and probably wartime behaviors would be condoned for every citizen during an invasion by an outside force.

I have not idea why you think that this matters. :confused:

You don’t have any clue what matters to an American when you are a Canadian, but you sure act like you do. :evilfun:

This entire discussion regarding patriotism revolves around a protest against violence.

Maybe I can look at it more objectively than an American because I don’t have the same emotional attachments.

Oh, the entire discussion revolves around that, does it. :smiley:

A fact, Jack! :evilfun:

the nfl issue is being argued as apples vs oranges in the media

apple: blacks are unfairly targeted by police and one protests
orange: kneeling during the anthem is obscene

“why are they kneeling?” appears ignored by one side
“why aren’t they respecting the flag?” appears ignored by the other