Income Disparity

WendyDarling · September 25, 2017, 6:38pm

That is way too low…$20.84.

You are equating people with decent incomes to be in the same boat as people without decent incomes which IS WRONG minded.

tentative · September 25, 2017, 9:53pm

Define decent. Oh wait, we’ve beat that horse to death already.

Why do I get the notion that WendyDarling is just looking for a fight?

WendyDarling · September 25, 2017, 10:25pm

I have defined decent, why don’t you?

tentative · September 25, 2017, 11:11pm

I did. Multiple times. Perhaps you need to read a bit more carefully? Everyone should be compensated at a rate that insures that all necessities are covered.

Now: Define necessities. I refuse to throw the simplistic dollar blanket over necessity because it will be different for every person.

One more time: There are no one size fits all answers. I know you want one, but I’m not telling. It’s a secret.

WendyDarling · September 26, 2017, 2:16am

My reading comprehension could improve. Write what a decent income is, ballpark figures, once more in a blue font color.

Ever heard of practicality? Why don’t you define the necessities in terms of practical living conditions.

A budget would be very helpful too, make it as loosey goosey, as ideal as you’d like to include the huge differences for each and every single individual.

Blurry · September 26, 2017, 3:29am

WendyDarling:

tentative:

WendyDarling:

I have defined decent, why don’t you?

I did. Multiple times. Perhaps you need to read a bit more carefully? Everyone should be compensated at a rate that insures that all necessities are covered.

Now: Define necessities. I refuse to throw the simplistic dollar blanket over necessity because it will be different for every person.

One more time: There are no one size fits all answers. I know you want one, but I’m not telling. It’s a secret.

My reading comprehension could improve. Write what a decent income is, ballpark figures, once more in a blue font color.

Ever heard of practicality? Why don’t you define the necessities in terms of practical living conditions.

A budget would be very helpful too, make it as loosey goosey, as ideal as you’d like to include the huge differences for each and every single individual.

I don’t think this is a useful argument/exercise, for the reasons tent amd others have already stated. What counts as “practical living conditions” in your mind? I make considerably less than $20.84/hr and am perfectly comfortable. If I made more money, which i have in the past,
I would find “necessary” ways to spend it, and so my idea of practical living conditions would change.

WendyDarling · September 26, 2017, 3:53am

Blurry wrote

When you have to put quotes around “necessary”, it does not equate with practical. I’m simply asking for straight answers from folks who I’ve been told are liberal elitists, answers that can be circumscribed rationally to alleviate some of the hardships of a majority of overworked, underpaid USA citizens. Why is that so hard to fathom folks?

How’s about you describe your income, budget and why you feel comfortable? What type of financial safety net do you have?

tentative · September 26, 2017, 4:00am

WendyDarling:

tentative:

WendyDarling:

I have defined decent, why don’t you?

I did. Multiple times. Perhaps you need to read a bit more carefully? Everyone should be compensated at a rate that insures that all necessities are covered.

Now: Define necessities. I refuse to throw the simplistic dollar blanket over necessity because it will be different for every person.

One more time: There are no one size fits all answers. I know you want one, but I’m not telling. It’s a secret.

My reading comprehension could improve. Write what a decent income is, ballpark figures, once more in a blue font color.

Ever heard of practicality? Why don’t you define the necessities in terms of practical living conditions.

A budget would be very helpful too, make it as loosey goosey, as ideal as you’d like to include the huge differences for each and every single individual.

Nice try, but I’m not about to be boxed in with some simplistic numbers game. But at the risk of repeating myself for the umteenth time, there simply is no way to determine some blanket definition of necessity. THAT is why so many help programs fail. To the extent that they try to please everybody they please no one.

Another example of why blanket definitions don’t work: You are a single mother with 2 children. Daycare for those children is a necessity that enables you to hold down a job. Your sister (or brother) is single and has no children. Daycare isn’t even in their basket of necessities. Your cousin is also a single mom with 2 children but she is lucky. Grandma will babysit her children so she can work a job. HOWEVER… She lives 30 miles from a job so her necessity is having reliable transportation. Three different situations each with different needs called necessity.

This is why I reject simplistic answers. The problems aren’t solved by some unidimensional solution. It just ain’t that easy.

Yes. More money for the labors performed. Wouldn’t it be great? I see where Target plans on paying 15.00/hr by 2020. It isn’t enough, but a step in the right direction. But by 2020, inflation will eat up any gains and we’ll be back to existence wages again. If you add my thread on AI and robotics can you see where we are headed?

If there is any blanket solution it will be when we collectively, ALL of us, decide to stop being profligate consumers. Then, and only then, we might begin finding realistic solutions to the issues facing the people who work their asses off just trying to survive and those solutions will address a hell of a lot more than just dollars.

I’m sorry that I can’t give you what you want, but it is because the simple answer just isn’t there.

Or perhaps it’s because I’m a victim of old age cynicism.

Blurry · September 26, 2017, 4:05am

WendyDarling:

Blurry wrote

I don’t think this is a useful argument/exercise, for the reasons tent amd others have already stated. What counts as “practical living conditions” in your mind? I make considerably less than $20.84/hr and am perfectly comfortable. If I made more money, which i have in the past,
I would find “necessary” ways to spend it, and so my idea of practical living conditions would change.

When you have to put quotes around “necessary”, it does not equate with practical. I’m simply asking for straight answers from folks who I’ve been told are liberal elitists, answers that can be circumscribed rationally to alleviate some of the hardships of a majority of overworked, underpaid USA citizens. Why is that so hard to fathom folks?

How’s about you describe your income, budget and why you feel comfortable? What type of financial safety net do you have?

I do not feel comfortable divulging personal financial information to complete strangers, but I’ll try to answer in loose terms. My income is sufficient to cover the gas I need, food, rent (which includes utilities), and a few creature comforts. Additionally, I home and feed a small, beautiful cat, and so have the additional costs of food, hairball prevention treats, and litter for the cat box. If I lived in another place, the money I make might not be sufficient, as cost of living differs greatly from place to place around the country, but as is, I do just fine. I have some savings set aside for my future, and I also have that money making more money for me while it sits there waiting for me to be old and grey.

Putting quotes around the word necessity does not mean those necessities wouldn’t be practical. Practicality is a pretty subjective term in this context, which is the point that has been explained to you multiple times, in one way or another.

WendyDarling · September 26, 2017, 4:08am

Screw them all and their earnings of $8 an hour…not my problems. They’ll just have to invest in the stock market with their savings like Mr. Reasonable said, no electricity and rice eats only.

tentative · September 26, 2017, 4:23am

Wendy, I applaud your concerns and desire to find solutions. Don’t give up but maybe narrow your focus a little. Remember? I’m the one who said keep it local, small scale and doable.

Faust · September 26, 2017, 2:25pm

Okay, so why do people have children that they cannot support?

tentative · September 26, 2017, 3:42pm

You had to go there didn’t you? I did my best to avoid that issue but no, YOU hadda drag it out.

OK

Prolly 90% of all live births are OOPS! Anyone who says different is lieing.
The ultra right conservatives are against any kind of birth control. “Keep 'em barefoot, pregnant, and in the bedroom or kitchen.”
Various religious groups discourage the use of condoms, and suggest the failed rhythm method to control population.
In certain states, the designed lack of facilities to correct unplanned pregnancies contributes to unwanted live births.
Supporting a child is an afterthought in the heat of the moment, assuming any afterthought.

There are dozens of other reasons but these are the obvious. You do realize that each of these plus others deserve their own thread with numerous pages of back and forth and a year from now…

WendyDarling · September 26, 2017, 3:43pm

Faust:

WendyDarling:

Even if they are living comfortable lives with discretionary income. What is the point of calling people who own a house and can go out to dinner and who own a nice car (etc) poor?
Poor people do not own expensive items or have that discretionary income.

I’ve defined poor, you haven’t. People who earn less than $30,000 are poor. Yes, people today earn less than their parents did but the cost of living is three times greater.

I get the point perfectly well, that the law of averages does not work well describing people’s economic situations, it skews it to look like most people have a decent income. Why admit this in one breath and deny it in another?

Describe a poor person who works full-time and what their existence looks like? Double dare you.

What I am saying is that, assuming we are talking about americans, this is, on its face, a woefully inadequate analysis. Take a retired couple who own their house outright. They have a few bucks in the bank, in a savings account. They each have retirement incomes, which they earned, of $30,000. Are they poor? They are not what I consider poor unless further investigation is done, a looking into the cost of their supplemental health care insurance. You could be describing my retired aunt (76yrs) and uncle (69yrs.) who pay around $1400 a mo. combined for supplemental health care insurance (Co-pays and prescrips not included). That would throw them into the poor having to pay $18,000 a year for health insurance and other medical expenses. Defining poverty by income alone doesn’t work.This thread is about income, so this is where the conversation starts…regarding incomes.

But also, someone who makes 31k per year in Mississippi is probably not poor by your definition, but in San Francisco? Same could be said for someone making $50,000. Major cities are always more expensive to live in and local wage increases could compensate for those differences.

The reason that this is important is not to deny that there are too many poor people but to be able to get past political rhetoric and look for answers. People are poor for many, many reasons. Forcing factories to pay everyone $32,000 per year (even if they are paying more) is not the answer. A decent income for our nation is required. “It’s a vast liberal conspiracy” is the rhetoric of identity politics, which doesn’t seem to work very well, especially for conservatives. It does seem like the liberals fight for cheap labor produced by illegals more so than true conservatives.

There are poor people and we can do better in a wealthy nation. What are your solutions again?

Blurry · September 26, 2017, 5:39pm

Blurry:

WendyDarling:

Blurry wrote

I don’t think this is a useful argument/exercise, for the reasons tent amd others have already stated. What counts as “practical living conditions” in your mind? I make considerably less than $20.84/hr and am perfectly comfortable. If I made more money, which i have in the past,
I would find “necessary” ways to spend it, and so my idea of practical living conditions would change.

When you have to put quotes around “necessary”, it does not equate with practical. I’m simply asking for straight answers from folks who I’ve been told are liberal elitists, answers that can be circumscribed rationally to alleviate some of the hardships of a majority of overworked, underpaid USA citizens. Why is that so hard to fathom folks?

How’s about you describe your income, budget and why you feel comfortable? What type of financial safety net do you have?

I do not feel comfortable divulging personal financial information to complete strangers, but I’ll try to answer in loose terms. My income is sufficient to cover the gas I need, food, rent (which includes utilities), and a few creature comforts. Additionally, I home and feed a small, beautiful cat, and so have the additional costs of food, hairball prevention treats, and litter for the cat box. If I lived in another place, the money I make might not be sufficient, as cost of living differs greatly from place to place around the country, but as is, I do just fine. I have some savings set aside for my future, and I also have that money making more money for me while it sits there waiting for me to be old and grey.

Putting quotes around the word necessity does not mean those necessities wouldn’t be practical. Practicality is a pretty subjective term in this context, which is the point that has been explained to you multiple times, in one way or another.

I should add health and car insurance, I pay for both of those as well.

Faust · September 26, 2017, 10:53pm

Wendy - one of the points I am trying to make is that individual median income doesn’t define people as poor. Median household income is a better measure. Single income families is a problem. There are causes unique to those families and solutions unique to those families. It’s a point about using the stats most supportive to your point. There are solutions other than simply waving a wand and granting everyone a $50,000 income, because there is a price to pay for everything. And this is a conservative position, by the way.

What’s not so conservative is universal, taxpayer supported health care, which doesn’t add to anyone’s income but which takes away an expense. Both sides of the lever matter.

Faust · September 26, 2017, 11:01pm

tentative:

Faust:

Okay, so why do people have children that they cannot support?

You had to go there didn’t you? I did my best to avoid that issue but no, YOU hadda drag it out.

OK

Prolly 90% of all live births are OOPS! Anyone who says different is lieing.

The ultra right conservatives are against any kind of birth control. “Keep 'em barefoot, pregnant, and in the bedroom or kitchen.”

Various religious groups discourage the use of condoms, and suggest the failed rhythm method to control population.

In certain states, the designed lack of facilities to correct unplanned pregnancies contributes to unwanted live births.

Supporting a child is an afterthought in the heat of the moment, assuming any afterthought.

There are dozens of other reasons but these are the obvious. You do realize that each of these plus others deserve their own thread with numerous pages of back and forth and a year from now…

Okay, but it’s worth pointing out that single mom families represent a lot of poverty. Are we doing everything we can to force dads to pay the freight? Are we making it too easy for irresponsible people to have kids? Should people have the right to bear four kids that they cannot support? Or to father them? If they do and should have that right, do we then complain that we have so much poverty or do we just accept it as a result of all those rights?

WendyDarling · September 26, 2017, 11:07pm

Why would single income families get preferential income treatment to a single individual? Sure, you can throw programs for childcare and food stamps at such situations, but why would they earn a greater income for the same work being performed?

Faust · September 26, 2017, 11:38pm

Wendy, if you’re question is directed at me, you should know that I don’t understand that question. Can you rephrase? Is it a rhetorical question?

WendyDarling · September 26, 2017, 11:41pm

This thread is about income disparity, right? That’s what I am talking about, a person does labor and they are paid such and such for their labor. My concern is not to go delving into every aspect of their personal choices, I just want a working individual to earn a fair wage and whether she or he has kids is another issue. No decent income equals poverty. Kids just make the hole of poverty ever so much deeper.