Government

Again, you unwittingly suggest the SAM Co-op, but to answer your question; people aggregate and subdue, if not kill off, other people so as to gain more of whatever they desire. The end result is what you see around you (as you noted). Who would protect the peaceful tribe from a much more aggressive and nastier tribe? Whoever that is, is the “government” via protectionism.

No, I said co-ops don’t work. Nobody would protect the peaceful tribe if the tribe can’t protect itself. This world is one of inequality, brutality, and unfairness. The weak perish or are enslaved.

Also, the only way people would be allowed to go forward to create their own governments or societies is by going to war against the current government that they find themselves subjugated under now. This is the way it is.

The will of the people is the will of the “violent gang”.

Once again, there is no will of the people, the will of the people is whatever a government says it is.

So you’re claiming that governments are not comprised of people? People have will, wants, desires. The “violent gang” you’re hypothetically referring to, is comprised of people, therefore, comprised of will.

You’re wrong.

Will of the people as an idealistic concept means consent by a majority of people and it is that what I am saying doesn’t exist. You should perhaps familiarize yourself with political expressions before opening your mouth.

Governments are controlled by a tiny minority of individuals, once again stfu!

If you had read the OP then you should note that I specifically mentioned that The Government reflects the will of those who run it, not some separate entity or society. You’re misusing the term. You’re claiming that the “will of the people” is other than the “violent gang”. I’m saying that the will of the people is the violent gang.

You’re disassociating. It’s like claiming to be a victim of the government, and “the government does not represent me”, when, sometimes it does and other times it does not. So you’re using the western ideal as your standard. I also mentioned this subjective, personal interpretation of governments too.

While you define government as “a violent gang”, a christian on the other hand, would perhaps define government as the Archdiocese, Bishops, and Pope, the “holy order of god and saints”, etc. Therein the will of the people (christians) would be a religious order and nature.

So you’re missing the points, big time.

Yes, the so called will of the people is whatever a small minority of individuals that run government says it is. The government represents a majority of people? :laughing:

What am I missing again?

You missed the point of the point about how “TG” is an expression and extension of individual personality and group character. You obviously have anarchistic-nihilistic-cynical tendencies, hence your definition that government is “a violent gang of criminals”, which many other people will readily disagree with, or simply, describe in other ways. Your society, on the other hand, is western liberal democracy. So when I say “will of the people”, you incorrectly presume that I meant the will of the voting masses, when I did not imply that. By “will of the people”, I meant specifically, the will of those who represent government, according to the subjective interpretations and definitions by which people conceive of “The Government”.

So you disassociated the concepts. For you, personally, you believe “the will of the people” (western democracy) is not the will of “TG” (the violent gang of criminals). Obviously that’s what you intended, but not what I intended. I retorted by correcting you. I’m talking about “the will of the people, of the government, so as you define it, that would be the will of the people of the violent gang of criminals”.

That you disassociate the concepts, leads me to believe that you suffer from victim-mentality. You probably believe that you are a victim of “TG”, and so, would claim that the will of the people is other than the will of the “violent gang of criminals” who, you probably blame, as dominating your life.

I would psychoanalyze you further. Something happened in your childhood and adolescence, probably bullied by a “violent gang of criminals/thugs”, and so, from those early life experiences, now you define “The Government” according to your personal and subjective, negative emotions and reactions. And this formulated your understanding of “TG” ever since, throughout your life. So perhaps now, you simply lack the imagination of how “TG” could be anything else but “a violent gang of criminals”.

You’re ignorant. You’re not listening to me, the OP, or much of anything. You’re not learning either.

Because if you had listened, had read and understood my points, then you would have caught early on, for example, how to a christian “The Government” means something entirely different than what you mean, what you intend, and your life experiences. The life of an average christian, attending church, believing in those mythologies and indoctrination, will conceive of “TG” as some type of spiritual, Holy Order, in which abrahamic-god is the Absolute Authority. Furthermore, there are many other types of government, and conceptions of government.

However it seems useless for me to engage you if you cannot recognize this simple and obvious fact. Even a mere disagreement, and ulterior definition of government, is enough to prove me right. If anybody believes that government is other than “a violent gang of criminals” (like what, Bloods and Crypts fighting each other in Los Angeles?) then it proves my point that “The Government” is an extension of these deeper concepts, and especially, the conception of “Authority”.

People base their understanding of “TG” on life experiences, directly related to, and what they can understand of, Authority.

I’d like to discuss these matters further with others here, but nobody is willing. So I can only hope these points strike you with some sense.

Are you incapable of empathizing with others??? Do you have a hard time understanding that other people do not live “in your world”? That some people have “good, better, easier” lifestyles in which they are not nihilistic, and happily invest in the system, because cooperation benefits them, when it does not benefit you? Or that your choice to resist against “TG” is your own, personal responsibility. And so you truly have no reason nor cause to be cyncial, because you choose your life?

However I don’t want to strip you away from your victim-complex…just yet. Are you tired of being a victim? Don’t you want power and control over your own life? Are you a man of your word? How can a woman or child depend on you, if you can never and will never depend upon yourself? Are you destined to be completely and utterly alone until you die? Is that what you want, or do you prefer “more”, “better”? Want to fuck a beautiful woman? Do you think a beautiful woman would fuck a guy who can’t take care of himself, has no power, no authority, no control over his own life? Do you think women would ever respect that?

Etc.

Alright, so you disagree with my position of government being a group of violent criminals, if government is not that, what is it? No, I’m not an anarchist anymore, I’m just saying if governments can be violent career criminals then everybody else should be able to pursue similar paths for themselves. :sunglasses:

Now explain to me how governments are lead by noble good people and not criminals. :laughing:

I didn’t say that.

It’s a possibility that it is, but, you haven’t made any reasonable or convincing arguments that it is. Also you seem to be repeatedly missing the point of the thread.

What makes you believe that your ideal, your dream, your desire that “The Government” is a “violent gang of deceptive criminals” is anymore accurate, right, or truer than a christian who believes his government is a “benevolent all-seeing all-powerful invisible santa clause”?

Or isn’t it, merely your opinion?

You’re not disagreeing with me yet you’re begging the question and criticizing my views, very confusing. Look, I explained my view that all governments are criminal organizations masquerading behind benevolence or virtuous nobility, if you disagree with my held position I’ll welcome your arguments to the contrary. We can have a casual debate about it.

Also, I am just saying if governments can be ongoing criminal organizations then the common man and woman should be able to create their own criminal organizations/societies. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. This whole legalized criminality of prevailing governments while outlawing criminality from everybody else is nothing more than a monopoly trying to cut out any kind of competition from anybody else. It’s almost like a form of criminal socialism that bails out government criminals while penalizing everybody else for wanting to do the same.

It’s very obvious that the government is a highlevel gang and criminal organization ran by an even more higher level criminal organization, the banks.

I merely corrected you buy saying the will of the government is the will of its representatives. You said “the will of the people” was the unwashed, powerless masses.

So the misunderstanding rests with you. The main point of the OP, is how people abstract and understand notions of power, control, authority, and then conceptualize “The Government”. Your definition, “a violent gang of deceptive criminals” is insufficient. It doesn’t say much of anything. I could call the Bloods versus Crypt gang wars in Los Angeles, “a violent gang of criminals”. Does that then mean that they are the united states central government? No.

So your definition is shallow, and doesn’t say, nor explain much of anything.

It’s kind of side-tracked the whole thread. My original intention was for somebody to offer more in-depth analysis of how individuals and groups come to form their notions of “The Government”, and how the myriad different forms of governments, around the world, and throughout history, represent (or do not represent) specific groups of people. For example, what is the nature of Democracy exactly, versus Fascism? What would those societies look like? Why would they manifest?

However the quality of this conversation has gone down hill.

How banks exist.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mII9NZ8MMVM[/youtube]
How banana republics exist.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgydTdThoeA[/youtube]

I am saying under any kind of government the majority of people have no power or real influence whatsoever where the will of the people as a political abstraction is empty, illusory, and basically signifies nothing at all. The people’s will represented in government is an illusory abstraction maintained in propaganda to satiate the largely idiotic masses that haven’t the slightest clue that they have been born into bondage and that their entire lives largely consists of a variety of slaveries. Behind every government is individuals that only work for their self interests only, I don’t care what kind of government it is the end result is always the same. Sure, they’ll put on a dog and phony show for the idiotic masses claiming they exist to serve them which is brilliant propaganda and occasionally they’ll throw the masses some bones or scraps to undermine unrest but throughout history it always repeats the same, only a handful of individuals within government see the benefit of its existence. There is so much criminal conspiracy of any kind of government against the common man and woman that makes up the majority of any given population that there is no other way to describe it other than criminal. The only difference between democracy and fascism is the differing level of propaganda in public relations maintaining social order. Ball is in your court now, looking forward to a response. Don’t give up on a conversation so easily!

You are saying “the will of the people” outside government.

I am saying the will of the people within government.

I’m saying that governments are comprised of people, with will. And those people who run government, are responsible for the country, a nation, a society, a tribe, whatever, also conceive of government in the ways I mentioned. So people basically conceive of power relationships, and then abstract those, to form understandings of “The Government”. And “TG” is merely a generalization.

For example, you’re talking about Western u.s. government and Democracy. There are other forms of government. Your definition of “TG” will not make sense, or be agreeable with, somebody who lives in Denmark, somebody who lives in a Brazilian rainforest, somebody who lives in Japan, somebody who lives in Russia, etc.

People who run the government have three primary wills - will to money, will to cowardice, and will to sadomasochism.

All of their political actions are decided by those three things.

Otti believes that everybody with power is an alien, and that aliens are evil and that he is a unique innocent person and deserves for other people to take care of him, but he doesn’t want to also have to take care of them.

Basically he is an infant.

I couldn’t argue with that.

I suspect a little equivocation going on there. The will of the people is utilized in the process of governing. That will is not the governing itself, else there would be no need to govern. To govern is to limit or restrict an otherwise choatic, dispassionate, or undesired emoting of the populace (the very meaning of “Ahdam” from Genesis, the first government). Thus the presence of a government requires a distinction between the governing agent and the governed mass.

So Otto is correct in saying that the majority of the populace is always relatively powerless. Whether the governing agent is “criminal” is more an case of being “typical” and recently “very typical”, rather than necessarily always. And it happens that way for a very specific reason that is extremely difficult to thwart. What inspires people to be strong is also what inspires them to be criminally dispassionate and manipulative. “Man”, the man-ipulator of the people must remain rationally disciplined from the random urgings and emotings of the populace, else governing into any form of harmony cannot be achieved.

Populations do not inherently, automatically, or naturally harmonize without a governing agent. Thus governing is required so as to bring cohesiveness and harmonious behavior. Civilization, science, technology, philosophy, knowledge are all accomplishable only because there was governing going on in different forms. The only issue is whether the good outweighs the bad. At times it does. At times it doesn’t.

Obviously the best governing excludes abuse of the populace but until that agent can be promoted into authority, its converse remains dominant - if you are not doing the right thing, you are doing the wrong thing.