Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Seriously?

:icon-rolleyes:

I have referenced two kinds of “ghosts”. To which are you referring?
And exactly what gives you the impression that you have the slightest notion of what dark matter is about? :confused:

As to your “refrigerator comment”, my effort was merely to reveal that your point was absurd. With your help, that was accomplished. There was no more need to reply.

The kind that can observe things without having the observation affect them.

N. Tyson.

You think refrigerators do fit into our eyes?? :o

Here’s another example which renders your point absurd. Suppose we want to know what a refrigerator looks like in the dark. In order to see what it looks like, we have to cast light on it (if only infrared light; but then we still can’t see it with the naked eye). But if we cast light on it, it’s no longer in the dark! So we cannot know what a refrigerator looks like in the dark. Likewise, we cannot know what an as-yet-unobserved quantum state is like.

I have never referred to that as being a ghost, so that nomenclature attempt is upon you.

Oh gyahd… :icon-rolleyes:
Pray that no one hijacks or scrambles your coding.

What I think, since you asked, is that you know too little of that subject to intelligently discuss it. You have your opinions … fine. Keep them. Perhaps attempt debate with someone else.

And btw, even in Jacob’s self-valuing (with which I am not entirely incompatible), there is no reverse causation involved.

Still, you claim that it’s possible to observe things without having the observation affect them. I call that ghostly because a ghost, in much of popular culture, can move through things and yet observe them.

How’s your standing within the scientific community, James?

As I already told you in that other thread, “I never claimed that what happens to the light after it leaves the object changes the object.” (http://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?p=2673851#p2673851)

Jim, can you please address Sauwelios’ points? I would like to see some intelligence from your side.
I know you have it. Others don’t think so but I know you do.

Dont fucking leave me hanging Jimbo.

It isn’t like I owe You any favor. If you would like to inject some intelligence into Sauw’s efforts to make sense out of the nonsense, feel free. Although since your brain breakage, I’m not sure that is possible.

He is trying to support the notion that the observation of an object changes the object. We had this discussion years ago wherein I pointed out exactly where that notion arose and why. It is merely another part of the Quantum Magi mysticism to bemuse the masses. Sauw obviously wants to believe in the magic.

He first proclaimed that because light bounced off of the object into the eye for observation, the object was affected by the observation. Of course, that led to a reverse time issue. He back peddled and tried a couple of more excuses for the belief and is now up to proclaiming that because an observer will shine the light on the object in order to observe it, the observation will affect the object. Of course that is a serious non-sequitur fallacy. The shining of the light is not the observing. The light might have been there anyway, most often it is.

If you want to inject some intellect into any of that, or come up with something more sensible, have at it. But as I said, since your …

James is just a dinosaur (a Platonist).

James, I still claim that because light bounces off of the object into the eye for observation, the object is affected by the observation. This need by no means lead to a reverse time issue. It is indeed not necessary for an observer to shine the light on the object in order to observe it. However, the shining of the light is part of the observing. It is even if it was there to begin with.

Now technically, it’s true that we never see a refrigerator (it never enters our eyes), but only light. The light coming off a refrigerator is different from the light coming off a TV. In both cases, it’s affected by those objects in the collision with them. But action equals minus reaction. The light cannot be affected without it equally affecting those objects. Now on the scale of things we can see with our naked eye, that effect is negligible: those objects won’t look any different from if the light had miraculously not affected them (except that the refrigerator, for instance, would be black instead of white, as I’ve already explained). On a subatomic scale, however, that which is bounced off the quantum objects in order to observe them is of a kind with those objects. It’s like throwing a TV into a TV in order to pinpoint the latter’s location.

I suspect now James confuses two things. Either a visual observation includes the light’s reflection or emission–in which case that reflection or emission is part of the observation–, or it does not. In the former case, we can say we see the refrigerator or the refrigerator light, but only the way it is when affected by the reflection or emission. In the latter case, we can only say we see the light reflected off of the refrigerator or emitted by the refrigerator light. For simplicity’s sake, let’s say we see the light reflected off of the refrigerator. Then the refrigerator is indeed not affected by the observation, but this is because the refrigerator is not observed at all; only the light reflected off of the refrigerator is observed… [Edit: And indeed, the source of the light may have undergone changes in the meantime, for instance the sun during the eight minutes it took the sunlight to travel here.]

Am I making myself clear? Either we say we observe the refrigerator, or we say we observe the light coming from the refrigerator. The refrigerator is affected by its collision with the light. The light is affected both by its collision with the refrigerator and its collision with our eyes. So the observation always affects the object of observation.

You seem to have serious logic issues. Tell us, what if the observer was daydreaming at the time and thus, even though the light entered his eyes, he failed to actually notice what happened - the observation didn’t actually take place? Is the object supposed to still be affected differently than when the observer had his eyes closed? Or differently than when the observer was sick at home that day? Or when there was no observer at all?

  • Another logic fallacy issue. Seeing does not require that anything enter the eye other than the reflected light. Seeing is not objects entering the eye. Seeing is reflected light entering the eye. So no, it is not true that we never see a refrigerator. The reflected light is merely the means by which we see the refrigerator.

Light is light. It doesn’t really matter from where it comes. The TV produces light whereas most objects merely reflect light. The eye doesn’t really care although the mind of an observer might.

Action is negative reaction? The statement doesn’t seem to make sense. A reaction is an action, but an specific kind of action resulting from a prior action. A reaction is the second action in a sequence. There is nothing “minus” or negative about it.

Light certainly affects objects. But we aren’t really talking about light. We are talking about observation which at times requires that light be present and usually light is present even without observation. So observing and light are two different things. At times, light isn’t required at all. Is the object still affected differently merely because someone happened to be standing around and noticed the object? Your position is “yes”, but you will never be able to substantiate that position - because it is nonsense.

So your problem has been one of definition? You didn’t know that ALL “seeing” has never been anything other than receiving the reflected light (and being awake enough to notice it)?

Oh, I’m quite clear on your intent. But the rest of the modern world knows that seeing is merely receiving the reflected light and nothing else. So with that in mind, you have now agree that the object is not actually affected at all by the seeing or observing.

Are you going to now attempt to argue that some people believe that seeing involved the objects themselves entering the eye? And could you possibly ever support such a notion? Without that, you no longer have an argument for your case.

Thats basically your philosophy, Ive found the past 5 years. Its main objective is to ridicule aspects of other peoples thoughts that you feel good about ridiculing. I assume by “brain breakage” you mean my bafflement that you were actually claiming authorship of vo, while not even understanding the logic.

That is funny, in retrospect. Back then it was just supremely ugly.

Since you entered the thread here, the subject has been obscured, as usual.
You’re dragging Sauwelios into attempts to explain what you should very easily understand.

Obviously no one has addressed the question of the methods and criteria in the Chinese experiment. I may seek to put a model together myself but don’t hold your breath.

Sauwelios, indeed the bottom line of what you are discussing with James is that observation is a phenomenon that relies on a change in both the observed and the observer, because light isn’t nothing, nor is any phenomenon that enables observation.

James is, I suppose, trying to keep that basic fact obscure so as to not have to engage the true entanglement question which negates the idea of AO, at least as he has managed to explicate it.

VO on the other hand directly necessitates entanglement issues being prior to timespace issues.

I never made any such claim. That was merely one of the delusional results of your crackup.

No, nor is this what quantum mechanics claims.

Nope. If we define “observation” the way you do, as something that happens solely in the observer’s mind (brain and nervous system, supposing you’re not a substance dualist), we never see refrigerators, TVs, etc. etc., but only light.

Refrigerators usually also produce light. Anyway, that wasn’t the difference I meant. The TV might be turned off for all I care.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_(physics)

This is high-school stuff, people…

My position is not “yes” and has never been “yes”.

Sure I did. But we usually speak of “seeing the refrigerator” instead of “seeing the light reflected by the refrigerator”. In the former case, the refrigerator is affected by the observation (namely, by its collision with the light). In the latter case, only the light itself is affected (namely, by its collision with our visual perception mechanism). In any case, the object of observation is affected by the observation and in the observation.

The refrigerator is “observed” (experienced) by the light in its collision with it.

Technically, the refrigerator is construed, based on responses to the light that hits our retina and the conditions we call our brain. We don’t actually ever see anything as it is. We could even be seeing a scale picture of a refrigerator. An obvious thing to state but it seems indeed we need to start with the basics.

The problem with the Chinese entanglement observation is more related to that issue actually, as they might actually cause the entire situation into being by arranging circumstances for it to be observed.
This is my skepsis vis the Higgs Boson. I think it is not a particle but rather an epiphenomenon seen when a material self valuing takes shape - a spectre of its power perhaps. Not something that can exist by itself.

It needs the conditions in which it is required for something to make sense. It is like the wishful-thinking particle of those that refuse to contemplate philosophy’s grounding question “Why being and not rather nothing?”, the answer to which is the double entendre “Nothing can’t enforce itself.”

Hi to All,

Just a quick note on the science of the subject.

Kurt Gödel provided a mathematical solution to the Einstein field equations showing that the Universe could be cyclical. If I recall correctly, it required the Universe to rotate.
Gödel and Einstein were friends at the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton. Even though the model was logically consistent, I don’t think that it was ever taken seriously.

Thanks Ed

Hi Ed

The universe would be rotating with respect to what?

An rotating object can be discerned by comparing any element within it’s structure.

But the universe is not an object.
It namely has no edge nor a center.
We cant look at it from outside and we cant know where we are in it with respect to its limits, as it has no discrete limits, as there cant be anything outside of it.

Hi Fixed Cross,

A great question. I am not sure of the answer.

I would guess that a spinning Universe would have a higher Energy content than a stationary Universe, which in turn means that the spatial metric would change. Since time is part of the spatial metric it is possible, if it were setup properly, that the time variable could be sinusoidal.

Anyway, I am not an expert in this matter, I only know enough to be dangerous.

Thanks Ed

P.S.
After getting my feet wet with regard to Peirce, your conjectures appear to be true.

The universe contains many galaxies. We can observe the positions of those galaxies and determine if it they form a circular rotational motion. Thus, if the universe is truly rotating, we can also find the center of the universe, the point of no angular velocity, and if that point cannot be found, we can deduce it by comparing relative velocities to deduce an implied centerpoint.

Either the universe is spinning, or it is not, and this should be able to be determined by astronomers.