Contemplation . . .
The golden naïveté; I really like that. Thank you - this gives rise to much thought . . .
I have great affinity with this - whilst I believe that meaning comes in the form of logic as well.
Totally . . . Is it reality that our conscious mind is agreeing on?
I would also add emotional to this list with rational/reasonable.
I am loving the contrast on display . . . much to ponder . . . Meaning then as an expression to yield emotion and sagacious resolve.
As do I, but I think of it more as balance, not logic.
Each string of the lute vibrates on a certain frequency, a certain pitch, with certain intervals.
So even though the blind wind plays on the strings of perception, the natural set of the strings
is a Pythagorean equation. The logic is embedded in the structure.
Such that when the wind blows, the notes often harmonize.
But we also know that we can find meaning in atonal music.
This is the true essence of golden naivete.
When you are able to construct meaning without the need for external coherence.
When you are willing and able to build – and live – in worlds built from microtones.
Points of interest . . . points of expansion . . .
Whilst I believe that meaning comes in the form of logic as well, I still find emotion at times more expressive of meaning.
I am inclined to agree with a concept of balance - I have found that the expression of emotion can be rational too . . .
Nearly meditative meaning . . . an expansion of meaning . . . I have found a similar thing with poetry . . .
As you say in another way: When you are able to construct meaning without the need for external coherence.
[size=85]I am still in contemplation on what else you have written . . .[/size]
We often have a pseudo-reality that our conscious mind seems able to agree on. This could add to the explanation of the occurrence of paradoxes . . . I doubt that is what either of you are saying entirely though. I still think the scale of the gap is where imagination comes in . . .
. . . being able to construct new meaning next to reality . . . being able to make the imagining real . . .
In this there is a great amount of meaning . . . Id est there is meaning in everything and its contrasts . . .
. . . I like the way you have written it . . . rather Socratic . . . new lease on life . . .
Old meaning meets the new to create synergy . . . and greater meaning . . . and like you stated - where does meaning come from? All around and often through whatever source we will listen to; to me could also include finding meaning in music, culture, poetry, society, science and philosophy as well as more . . .
encode_decode,
First of all, I must tell you how very much I am enjoying sitting in your Zen garden, surrounded by all of this beauty, this silence and stillness. It almost seems a shame for us to speak in here at all.
Oh, I would appreciate it if you could offer me a nice tall glass of lemonade with lots and lots of ice~ if you please.
How does one derive meaning in/from their life?
I recently saw the move Dunkirk. What an awesome movie it was. I literally sat on the edge of my seat during most of it. I don’t really want to give anything away since some may want to see it. It IS a movie well worth the seeing. But that is my perspective.
There was a scene in the movie where 700 non-military private ships (that was the reality though I don’t think we see all those ships on the screen) went out…
When 400,000 men couldn’t get home, home came for them
It was absolutely awe-inspiring and heartrending. My heart was in my throat. The tears would just not stop coming. Meaning for me was within those tears.
You asked how does one derive meaning in one’s life? What gives your life meaning?
These were people from all walks of life, down to a boy of about age 14, 15…
They came for these men, to rescue them.
They put their lives at risk. Courage under fire is one of the most meaningful, beautiful things in the world to me. I also experienced it with the movie Hacksaw Ridge.
A scene of such human solidarity brought on as a result of all of these people coming together is meaningful and beautiful to see.
Perseverance and the will to move forward DESPITE all danger (and oh was there ever danger) obstacles and odds in order to save other human beings is something beautiful and meaningful to see.
You could see many of the people standing on their boats. Their faces, registering such looks of determination and quiet courage, to get to those men ~~ were meaningful and beautiful to see and more than that, to experience.
I cried me a river. This was a moment when humanity was at their very best and a moment where I felt so proud to be a human being. There can be great meaning in that. That is when Life reaches to the heights even though there was also great tragedy seen there.
I think that what it is, or may be, which allows us to derive/experience such real meaningfulness in life are the other opposite-sides- of- the- coin, meaninglessness moments, moments when we are or may be deeply ashamed to call ourselves human, moments which show us man’s great inhumanity to man. I think that without the One, we could not experience the Other so profoundly.
William James said that the greatest use of life is to SPEND it for that which will outlast it. That is really something to ponder, I think.
Moments like this, this movie, or Hacksaw Ridge, or other real and vital moments in history when human beings have stood together in solidarity, to show such inter-connectedness, to save relative strangers rather than to destroy them ~~ are moments which bring profound meaning, real meaning into Life.
Sorry for my redundancy.
Emotion is tricky. Why? Because it too is a complex intertwining of genes and memes. Embedded along with reason in the even more primative components of the brain.
This part:
The primary structures within the limbic system include the amygdala, hippocampus, thalamus, hypothalamus, basal ganglia, and cingulate gyrus. The amygdala is the emotion center of the brain, while the hippocampus plays an essential role in the formation of new memories about past experiences.
Now, there are actually folks here [I call them objectivists] who insist they have a full understanding of all of this. Not only are they able to encompass the either/or world for us but are in turn able to grasp the one and the only rational – natural – manner in which comprehend disputes that arise as a result of conflicting reactions to human behaviors out in the is/ought world.
Just don’t ask them to bring an analysis like this…
…out into the world of conflicting human behaviors.
After all, how would one go about demonstrating to others that they have an obligation as rational human beings to share the meaning assigned to the words in this ponderous intellectual contraption?
James
I am curious as to what you mean when you say:
How is it that one can discover the objective truth of what one is? I imagine this can only be done via reference . . .
Now if this can be done . . . how is it that the meaning of ones life would spring from the objective truth?
I am interested in an answer to this.
How does one discover objective truth about anything?
Try it and “discover the objective truth” about it. 
Hey encode,
Would I be laughed at or dismissed if I said meaning is in everything? That meaning is the foundation for things to exist?
My belief is that all reality is fundamentally information. In human terms, it is information expressed as matter. The question for me is: how to make meaning comprehensible? Many people look out at the universe and fail to find meaning–it all looks arbitrary and accidental, without purpose, without aim–and become nihilistic. But how would you distinguish true meaninglessness from incomprehensible meaning? They would look the same. Incomprehensible meaning is like hearing a foreign language: you know it means something but you can’t tell the difference between that and random meaningless babbling?
Yeah.
Too late.
gib
► I am going to answer your post twice - this time around I will answer my favorite part . . . and . . .
► . . . next time around I will answer the bit relating to reality being information expressed as matter.
► I have devised an artificial method that derives meaning from analogy - more on that at a later date.
Never . . . not when it comes to meaning . . . maybe when it comes to being late for work . . .
Yeah . . . some people would laugh at you and others would dismiss you and there are those that would do both . . .
. . . I am not in any three of those categories however . . .
I actually really like your post.
This will require a little more mental effort on my part - but I will get back to you about it.
I do believe however, that at the very least, you have partially answered it already.
Yes, I have a similar view regarding reality and information - information expressed as matter is something I will put more thought into - making sure to consider the energy side of the equation.
Now this is where we get near to my favorite part of your post . . .
I agree.
And there it is . . . my favorite part of your post . . . I am totally inclined to agree.
For the example you gave to make a contrast between what we perceive as meaning and meaning that otherwise exists even when we do not see it . . .
. . . or in the case of your example . . . hear it . . . really tells us something about meaning.
=D>
Arcturus Descending
The sun is gently shining with a golden glow and there are a only a few large white clouds in the sky - it is mid afternoon and the temperature is perfect - high above is an Eagle circling . . . Mr List is contemplating the Koi Pond as the Nishikigoi effortlessly move through the water . . .
All the trees surrounding the garden are still - the atmosphere is serene and the air is pure and feels refreshing with each breath . . .
You are welcome to remain silent for a while and let your thoughts take in meaning from the surrounds - just to be immersed in tranquil reflection . . . Mr List gently walks off to prepare the lemonade . . . ten minutes later he returns with a tray holding three tall glasses of fresh lemonade each containing a generous amount of ice . . . he smiles and returns to watch the Nishikigoi float along in their own world . . .
Your thoughts move over a quiet, almost silent internal dialogue as you sip your lemonade:
Meaning for me was within those tears . . . one of the most meaningful, beautiful things in the world to me.
I only just watched Hacksaw Ridge the other day for the first time . . . I was pretty much engrossed the whole way through . . . Great movie. It sounds like I might have to give Dunkirk a viewing to find out what you mean . . .
I will say that interacting with other people in general brings a lot of meaning to my life . . . sometimes inspiring and sometimes just meaningful in smaller ways.
- I think too that meaning can come from a smile -
Has anyone told you you’re very structured? 
Thank you! 
The feeling goes both ways. I really enjoy when two strangers can have a civilized exchange online. It gives both parties a chance to express themselves to the wider world.
It’s my metaphysics of consciousness. It’s a whole Pandora’s box of philosophy.
Think of it in terms of sensation. Our sensations are essentially information. What they tell us is: there’s matter.
There’s also energy, of course, and physicists now-a-days tell us they’re the same thing, but I’m a subjectivist (a specific approach to idealism). While that doesn’t mean I disagree with science, I don’t think science represents the “natural” or “intuitive” view of man. I think to get at the natural/intuitive view of man, one must appeal to one’s subjective experiences. What we can glean about the world by appeal to our subjective experiences is that it seems to be made of objects–macroscopic sized objects around the order of chair, trees, TVs, human beings–that seems to be what’s naturally “given” to us (or told to us if you buy my reality-qua-information spin). Energy’s in there too, of course, but we experience energy as objects doing things, or changing, or perhaps as properties of objects, like light or heat, but objects are the basic units of our world, at least with respect to human subjective experience.
Well, analogies are very powerful for getting a point across. I’m glad my use of them can make someone’s day. Thank you!
I certainly think so. I think it requires a bit of hubris to think that where you can’t find meaning there is none. It’s even more challenging when the meaning is incomprehensible–it means you’re not only failing to find meaning but can’t find it even if it’s right in front of you.
"Meaning“ is the central concept of semantics which is one of the most important subdiscipline of linguistics. The semantical research can be done in a synchronic and in a diachronic (etymological) way. So meaning has a history too. Animals do not reall know that a certain phenomenenon has a meaning; but they know the meaning of some phenomenons, because they have experienced them. So one has to have something like the human language in which one can analyse sound (phonemes) and the smalles forms with a meaning (morphemes), then words, sentences, texts.
Just observe little children when they learn the language of their parents or family. They learn that certain speech-forms, thus lingusitic forms, have certain meanings, either inward or outward. If these meanings are inward, then they are part of the language itself; and if they are outward, then they are part of both the language and the environment. So meanings can change (see also above: diachronic [etymological]), are in permanent contact with the environment of any language. The inward located meanings have a more subjective or "individual“ character, and the outward located meanings have a more objective character, and both are in permanent contact.
Can you give an example of inward meaning and outward meaning? Is it the same difference as between mental and physical? Or is it that inward meaning is speech-forms that come packaged with the language itself (so to speak)–words like “and” or “the” or because"–whereas outward meaning is speech-forms that are subsumed into language to serve the function of denoting or identifying things in the environment–words like “chair” or “cloud” or “shoe”?
From cognitive abilities, if one lacks cognitive abilities, one can’t comprehend much and are per definition retarded.
Do cognitive abilities include qualia to you?
Lump
I understand what you have written . . . I would have to intuitively say that this is definitely part of the truth . . .
. . . there are however a few caveats.
Here are three things to consider . . . let us employ analogy to illustrate . . .
1 ► If a tree fell in the woods, and nobody was around to hear it, did the tree really fall?
2 ► If a person(lets call him Bob) is sitting in a stadium(which is filled to capacity) - and bob has no cognitive abilities - is the stadium really filled to capacity?
3 ► Incomprehensible meaning is like hearing a foreign language:
You know it means something but you can’t tell the difference between that and random meaningless babbling.
[size=85]gib(2017)[/size]
You could say that each of us only receives an incomplete puzzle to work with when it comes to meaning . . . meaning being the puzzle.
You are saying in a way: meaning always boils down to individual perception of comprehensive experience . . .
. . . I am saying: that when it does not boil down to individual perception, meaning still exists . . .
. . . to say otherwise, I would surmise, is to say that others do not exist . . .
. . . that is to suppose that something is true without having evidence to confirm it.
So where does that leave us? Well, your guess is as good as mine . . . mind.
encode_decode
Yes?
That is a perfect scene to me, encode_decode. I have experienced that kind of day except for the Eagle. That would have been a rare day. I am also glad that the sun was gently shining.
Mr. List, being that I am a skeptic, would I be stepping out on some kind of silly limb to ask you if you do have a Zen Garden? No reason why you couldn’t.
Why are the trees still? Are they afraid to breathe for fear of disturbing the perfect moment?
Why are the trees still? Have you commanded them not to dance?
Ah, but this is a non-thinking moment. I will let something else absorb the meaning.
What are you wearing on your feet?
Three tall glasses? Are we expecting company or are you generously giving me two glasses?
I wonder how the koi experience their life? Their movement?
What are my thoughts in this moment? Or perhaps they were about the koi or simply a silent moment of contemplation ~ koi swimming within my mind.
. . .
Hacksaw Ridge can be a lesson in not judging things and people by appearance. Here was this conscientious objector who was taken for a coward though he wanted to serve his country but in his own way. He was beaten because people were not capable of seeing beyond the surface. He later …well, you know the story but perhaps others might want to see it.
Yes, Dunkirk is certainly well worth seeing. I love movies which are larger than life.
Yes, for many, it would have to be that way. It is for me too. We are social creatures. I think that without trying, that meaning just slips in.
But I do not believe that it can be the same with any and all.
Perhaps Maxwell could explain that.
Yes, like the meaning which comes from a sunny day after we have experienced days of rain - though I love the rain.
A smile can be like a burst of the sun’s rays.
Everything that is relevant to the one who is learning a language can be used as an example here. Thus: Everything. A tree for example becomes a semantical meaning as an inward meaning when the linguistic form “tree” is internalized (learned).
By "inward meanings“ I mean here in my example the forms that have already been internalized by the child, either incorrectly, then the child has to learn more, or correctly, then the child can use them for the next steps of learning. By "outward meaning“ I mean here in my example the forms that are new for the child, thus have not already been internalized by the child, are just outwards in the environment of the child. So the linguistic forms and their meanings inside the body (brain) of the child become firmer and more and more (like an inventory of a company / corporation for example), whereas the linguistic forms and their meanings outside the body (brain) of the child (and still inside the bodies [brains] of the child’s parents for example) become less and less. At last, when the language is almost (almost!) acquired, the child (about 3 years old) could already go to school, if there was not the other language precondition that must be fulfilled: the language of writing / reading (which is a skill the child is not capable of before the age of 5 years).
What I mainly wanted to say in my post above is that there is already meaning in the language before one learns this meaning. So we learn a language that has already been learned by others. But if you observe a young child who is learning the parental language, then you can ascertain how pre-linguistic meanings become linguistic meanings. Everything becomes more and more abstract and spiritual (later even philosophical and mathematical). That is a huge advantage.