What Of Your Essence?

Half-formed posts, inchoate philosophies, and the germs of deep thought.

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Re: What Of Your Essence?

Postby gib » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:00 pm

WendyDarling wrote:Your immortal soul doesn't change. You are an absolute. <---Yes, I went there. :evilfun: How has your essence changed since you were a child?


I don't believe essences are things we carry around with us, I believe they are things we project onto stuff. Since I was a child, I've grown physically and mentally. I'm not the same person I used to be. I still recognize a continuum between the child I once was and the adult I am now, and that's what keeps bringing up the same self-identity in my mind (which I project as my essence), but like I said, that's a recurrence, not a constant.
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It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
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The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
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Re: What Of Your Essence?

Postby WendyDarling » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:13 pm

Essences are us. Each soul is individualized with essences. Some silly examples that you may be able to relate to since you cannot get beyond your physicality...kindness=green eyes, compassion=large feet, generosity=pointed ears, easily amused=webbed toes, optimistic=brown hair, etc.

You are the same being you have always been, that is how you identify you and operate in this conscious continuum. Your soul, your essence, is unchanged.

The meatbag you fill in a world of meatbags changes, but your filling is a constant that is how you remember yourself, recognize yourself, identify yourself. All this change you speak of is apart from your core self, its superfluous life, the passing of time so you can discover how to be the best you, you can be throughout eternity. Why can't you differentiate the external you from the internal you?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: What Of Your Essence?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:35 pm

WendyDarling wrote:Essences are us. Each soul is individualized with essences. Some silly examples that you may be able to relate to since you cannot get beyond your physicality...kindness=green eyes, compassion=large feet, generosity=pointed ears, easily amused=webbed toes, optimistic=brown hair, etc.

You are the same being you have always been, that is how you identify you and operate in this conscious continuum. Your soul, your essence, is unchanged.

The meatbag you fill in a world of meatbags changes, but your filling is a constant that is how you remember yourself, recognize yourself, identify yourself. All this change you speak of is apart from your core self, its superfluous life, the passing of time so you can discover how to be the best you, you can be throughout eternity. Why can't you differentiate the external you from the internal you?


What if we do not really have souls, Wendy?
What would be our essence then?
We are born into a world. What is it which would give us our essence, our own individual ethereal something?
Where did it come from?
We change, we flow like a river flows.
What is the essence of a river? Perhaps that it does flow? And it also changes because of that right?
It takes and it leaves things behind.
If it flows and if it does the above, doesn't it stand to reason that essence may change?
I don't know. I can't really say for sure but I kind of intuit that that space within me has changed over time.
I don't mean me. I just mean something. lol
Last edited by Arcturus Descending on Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

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Re: What Of Your Essence?

Postby WendyDarling » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:45 pm

The water is still the water, it is not chocolate milk, or hot fudge, melted butter or excrement.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: What Of Your Essence?

Postby encode_decode » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:58 pm

    HMMM . . .

    Arcturus Descending wrote:
    WendyDarling wrote:Essences are us. Each soul is individualized with essences.


    What is the essence of a river?

    Perhaps the essence of the river is water. "The water is still the water".
    Perhaps the flow is a more abstract concept.

    My two cents.

    :D
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      Re: What Of Your Essence?

      Postby WendyDarling » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:02 pm

      You, of all people, most definitely have a soul. O:) You are getting hung up on extraneous, external change.

      Aaron, I like your baby tiger...grrrr! :mrgreen:
      I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

      I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

      Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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      Re: What Of Your Essence?

      Postby WendyDarling » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:08 pm

      Still, the flow does not change the water but the water does change the flow. The water is what's important.
      I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

      I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

      Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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      Re: What Of Your Essence?

      Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:49 pm

      I think that essence is a really difficult thing to define.

      encode_decide used the word *abstract* with regard to flow.
      I think that essence is also abstract.
      Perhaps as in abstract art, one needs to stand further away from it in order to see it more clearly or to experience it more clearly.

      You are getting hung up on extraneous, external change.

      But that's just it, Wendy. I'm not thinking in terms of how we ourselves change, with reference to this thing we call our self.

      When we look at a diamond or any gem and it's different facets most of them shine differently appear to be different. What is it how is it made in such a way that it is different?
      Can that be its essence and I think that I have just refuted myself with this example.

      But somehow I intuit that our essence does change. I may be perfectly wrong here.
      Maybe the greater question is why do I see it this way.


      What is essence? I'm not looking for the dictionary's definition.
      SAPERE AUDE!


      If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


      What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

      Thomas Nagel


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      Re: What Of Your Essence?

      Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:10 pm

      encode_decode



      Perhaps the essence of the river is water. "The water is still the water".


      My logic may be completely off as i am not the most logical being going.

      But from that perspective, encode_decode, couldn't you say that the essence of the river is the same as the essence of a glass with water in it?
      And that the essence of the ocean is the same essence as that of a river?
      And that the essence of a waterfall or a torrential rain is the same essence as that of a river?

      Is water itself actually the essence of these things or just a part of its *true* essence?

      Doesn't essence have much more to do with what goes deeper, with what makes something what it is individually? I include rivers as individuals here or maybe it's better to say entities too.

      I may not have expressed that well.
      I still do not think that essence is so easily defined. But don't we also define god so easily?

      And can't those deeper unseen things which define a thing change?


      Perhaps the flow is a more abstract concept.

      lol Maybe ~ maybe not. But we can actually see flow, both in a river and in a person, can we not?

      ******

      What a real beauty that little tiger cub is.
      I wonder what is going on within his consciousness - if only I could read what is behind his eyes - and don't say that he has no consciousness. :P

      He's smart enough to hang near the boulder. Do you see how his colors are almost the same as that in the boulder?
      SAPERE AUDE!


      If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


      What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

      Thomas Nagel


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      Re: What Of Your Essence?

      Postby encode_decode » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:24 pm

        WendyDarling

        WendyDarling wrote:Aaron, I like your baby tiger...grrrr! :mrgreen:

        Yeah . . . that is Stripy - my fluffy kitten.

        :lol:
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        Re: What Of Your Essence?

        Postby encode_decode » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:33 pm

          Arcturus Descending

          Arcturus Descending wrote:What a real beauty that little tiger cub is.
          I wonder what is going on within his consciousness.

          If I look into his eyes for long enough the question is answered.

          :)

          Stripy seems at peace to me.
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          Re: What Of Your Essence?

          Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:44 pm

          encode_decode wrote:
            Arcturus Descending

            Arcturus Descending wrote:What a real beauty that little tiger cub is.
            I wonder what is going on within his consciousness.

            If I look into his eyes for long enough the question is answered.

            :)

            Stripy seems at peace to me.



            This is true.
            :sad-teareye:


            I've experienced this with Yoda.

            Ps: At the risk of sounding foolish, you don't really have a tiger cub, do you? :oops:
            Would you happen to have a little wolf cub available for me? I love wolves - all animals actually.
            SAPERE AUDE!


            If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


            What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

            Thomas Nagel


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            Re: What Of Your Essence?

            Postby encode_decode » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:28 pm

              Arcturus Descending

              Arcturus Descending wrote:At the risk of sounding foolish, you don't really have a tiger cub, do you?

              That is actually not a foolish question at all. As far as I know, some people do keep them. I don't really have a tiger cub.

              When I saw the picture I was drawn to the Cub's eyes.
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              Re: What Of Your Essence?

              Postby gib » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:47 am

              WendyDarling wrote:Essences are us. Each soul is individualized with essences. Some silly examples that you may be able to relate to since you cannot get beyond your physicality...kindness=green eyes, compassion=large feet, generosity=pointed ears, easily amused=webbed toes, optimistic=brown hair, etc.

              You are the same being you have always been, that is how you identify you and operate in this conscious continuum. Your soul, your essence, is unchanged.

              The meatbag you fill in a world of meatbags changes, but your filling is a constant that is how you remember yourself, recognize yourself, identify yourself. All this change you speak of is apart from your core self, its superfluous life, the passing of time so you can discover how to be the best you, you can be throughout eternity. Why can't you differentiate the external you from the internal you?


              Wendy, I'm not just considering physical change, I'm considering mental change as well (if anything changes, it's the mind). Other than those two--body and mind--I'm not sure what else there is. The 'self' is something we project onto ourselves.

              Think of it this way: the soul, to me, is like Northern Lights. If you look up at the Northern Lights one late evening, it looks like glowing waves splashing high above the atmosphere. You could keep your eye fixed on one streak or one wave and watch it dancing around with the others--it may stretch, bend, split in two, join with another, and even change color--this is how I imagine the soul--never remaining still, always changing--but you can still identify it, you can still keep your eye fixed on a particular stretch of light and watch it as it moves around, changes shape, goes through different colors, and all the while say "Yep, it's the same stretch of light." <-- I think we can say the same of the soul: even though it's never the same from moment to moment, we can still identify it, saying, "that's the same soul I had yesterday, I remember being that soul, and I remember my seamless experience from then to now."

              If it's a question of whether the soul will survive death, that has nothing to do with the permanence or fluctuation of the soul. Think of it like a student taking a course. From the beginning of the semester to the end, the student is undergoing constant change--cells are being replaced, personality changes, new memories are formed, more skills and knowledge are acquired--but then what does the professor say after the final exam: "Sorry, kid, can't let you pass. You're not the same person who registered for the course." <-- Of course not! You think God would reject you in the afterlife because you technically go through change in this life?
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              It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
              Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
              - surreptitious75

              The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
              - encode_decode
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              Re: What Of Your Essence?

              Postby WendyDarling » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:09 am

              You are still hung up, blinded by your perceptions of what is physical. Is every aspect of being physical to you in how you frame it in your mind's eye? Is a thought physical? Explain the essence of a thought?
              I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

              I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

              Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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              Re: What Of Your Essence?

              Postby gib » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:09 am

              WendyDarling wrote:You are still hung up, blinded by your perceptions of what is physical. Is every aspect of being physical to you in how you frame it in your mind's eye? Is a thought physical? Explain the essence of a thought?


              No, I am not a physicalist. I'm only a believer in change. In fact, thoughts are an excellent example of something non-physical (though they do have physical representations in the brain). What is the essence of a thought? Not sure about that one. I think the essence of concepts are just that--essences--that's what they project as. The essence of knowledge or belief is truth. The essence of remembering is the past. The essence of mental visualizations or fantasy is the mind itself (or the "unreal" as I sometimes call it). <-- These are all examples of "thinking".

              Now, there may be no way to resolve this disagreement. If you insist that there is a constant, unchanging soul and I insist that everything changes and we just project identities on things in a recurring fashion, and if we both take these as starting points, then how are either of us going to convince the other?
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              It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
              Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
              - surreptitious75

              The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
              - encode_decode
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              Re: What Of Your Essence?

              Postby WendyDarling » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:07 am

              Well I didn't ask you to explain thinking, but more a solitary thought. What is the essence of truth? Is truth change as well?

              How's about we flip a coin for the truth?
              I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

              I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

              Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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              Re: What Of Your Essence?

              Postby gib » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:48 pm

              WendyDarling wrote:Well I didn't ask you to explain thinking, but more a solitary thought. What is the essence of truth? Is truth change as well?

              How's about we flip a coin for the truth?


              Truths are not objects. They don't exist like rocks or trees or things like that. Truths are properties of propositions or statements. When I say "All circles are round," <-- that statement is true. It will always be true. But there is nothing to persist after I've made the statement. It's one of those recurring things. Every time the statement recurs, it's true. It's just difficult to imagine the truth value of the statement when it's not being made. The very attempt to imagine it requires that you bring the statement to mind, and you see that it's true every time. It gives the impression that the statement, with its truth value, endures even when we are not thinking about it.
              My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

              It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
              Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
              - surreptitious75

              The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
              - encode_decode
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              Re: What Of Your Essence?

              Postby WendyDarling » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:30 pm

              Now you are making a distinction between a true statement and a truth, why? I mean, you are still not answering my question. I'm talking about the totality of what's behind the Wizard of Oz's curtain, not how to id a circle.
              I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

              I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

              Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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              Re: What Of Your Essence?

              Postby gib » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:02 pm

              WendyDarling wrote:Now you are making a distinction between a true statement and a truth, why? I mean, you are still not answering my question. I'm talking about the totality of what's behind the Wizard of Oz's curtain, not how to id a circle.


              Other than a property of statements, I'm not sure what a "truth" is. Like I said, I don't believe truth is an object, it's not something floating around out there. I suppose what you're talking about is what some people call "the Truth"--as in, "I want to know the Truth." <-- But what is that? What is "the Truth" in general? Is it the whole body of specific truths? Is it the state of reality summed up in one principle? Is it just the state of reality itself? What?
              My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

              It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
              Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
              - surreptitious75

              The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
              - encode_decode
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              Re: What Of Your Essence?

              Postby WendyDarling » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:08 pm

              gib wrote:
              WendyDarling wrote:Now you are making a distinction between a true statement and a truth, why? I mean, you are still not answering my question. I'm talking about the totality of what's behind the Wizard of Oz's curtain, not how to id a circle.


              Other than a property of statements, I'm not sure what a "truth" is. Like I said, I don't believe truth is an object, it's not something floating around out there. I suppose what you're talking about is what some people call "the Truth"--as in, "I want to know the Truth." <-- But what is that? What is "the Truth" in general? Is it the whole body of specific truths? Is it the state of reality summed up in one principle? Is it just the state of reality itself? What?

              Hey, what's going on here? :-k You are supposed to be answering questions, not asking a gazillion more. :D :lol:
              I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

              I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

              Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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              Re: What Of Your Essence?

              Postby gib » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:46 am

              WendyDarling wrote:Hey, what's going on here? :-k You are supposed to be answering questions, not asking a gazillion more. :D :lol:


              Oh, I'm just getting started. :lol:

              Maybe we can do this: you seem to be partial to "essences"--the being of things that defines them as what they are, a sort of "soul" of things--I'm not against essences at all--I believe in them too--but I think they project from us--we give things their essences--they project from thought, from concepts. For me, this sort of puts them in a timeless state. If the essence of something is what defines it as the thing it is, then essences are definitions, the "is-ness" of a thing. Definitions are timeless. If we define a square as a polygon with four equal sides and four right angles, then that holds for all squares for all time--it doesn't change as a function of time. <-- This is where you get your constant. The only difference for me is that I think of such definitions as timeless--not time-bound and unchanging throughout time--but literally outside time (or rather, atemporal). For me, the word "constant" or "unchanging" makes little sense in this context--constancy and change only makes sense within time, a medium in which things can be constant or changing. I don't think of things outside this context as "constant". <-- And that is probably where our communication breaks down.
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              It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
              Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
              - surreptitious75

              The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
              - encode_decode
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              Re: What Of Your Essence?

              Postby WendyDarling » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:03 pm

              Fine, essences are timeless, now what?
              I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

              I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

              Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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              Re: What Of Your Essence?

              Postby gib » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:15 pm

              WendyDarling wrote:Fine, essences are timeless, now what?


              Now we have a whole new understanding of what it means for an essence to be "constant"--one that we can agree on. :handgestures-thumbupleft:
              My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

              It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
              Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
              - surreptitious75

              The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
              - encode_decode
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              gib
              little shitheaded Buddha
               
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              Re: What Of Your Essence?

              Postby WendyDarling » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:16 pm

              Great, how will you identify your constant? :-k
              I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

              I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

              Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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              WendyDarling
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