Why do people have the desire to talk?

I don’t mind asking for help. The reason I generally don’t is because people generally do not want to help.

Whenever I am weak, I will certainly seek out help. However, if I realize that there is noone out there who can and who is willing to help then I will have no choice but to accept my fate.

There is, however, a breed of men who, unable to accept the reality that other people do not want to offer help, came up with a theory according to which people actually want to help it’s just that they have degenerated to a lower state of being from which they have to be rescued.

Their desire (to receive help) overpowers their reason (the obvious fact that they won’t receive any help.)

It makes them feel better because they don’t have to mentally process the consequences of the fact that there is simply noone out there who is willing to help.

And I think that women have a similar mentality, if this is not a feminine mentality itself.

They do not merely ask for help.
They expect and demand to receive help.
And when they don’t, they get angry.

To James: :laughing: Why are you ranting? Man, don’t even try it with me or else, Buster! And when did your name become Magnus Anderson?
To Magnus: Stop with your pessimistic assumptions that no one will help and ask, for crying out loud.

I have seen men in situations where I couldn’t offer them the help that they wanted due to concerns for my safety. For instance, men as stranded motorists quickly become angry creatures especially late at night.

They are SO easy…
:laughing:

Arminius

I have no doubt that you may be correct. However I was only offering my own interpretation.

Hopefully this response will shed more light on the matter of influence - with any luck it should make sense.

I don’t know enough about Hegel or Nietzsche to comment. I am doing my best to break things down to their simplest components. Talking it seems to me is primarily about making noise and secondarily about getting a point across. Communication on the internet is a slightly different construct.

For example:

When we are babies we cry - something drives us to make a noise in the first place. Is the cry not a form of communication?

Many young creatures in their early stages make a noise - quite often for a reason.

After we have finished our many bouts of crying we tend to move into a more benign mode of making seemingly random noise(often times rather adorable).

Before we move onto articulating more structured sounds, it seems that crying and laughing are two of the earliest sounds that indicate emotional states.

Eventually our first words come into being. Whether we truly understand our first words the first time we use them is unknown to me.

We may never have known ourselves to begin with. By talking we are able to reflect off others who we are.

I am working with the idea that desires exist in some sort of hierarchy that is built up over time. Before we started talking and understanding the noise that came out of our mouths I can only assume that we were not really aware of that desire. For now I am not really certain how else I can put this.

Regarding influence then, I am saying that part of the motivation when we have the desire to talk, is to influence for good or bad - whatever the case may be. But would influence not be at a much lower level such as when the baby cries she or he might be unintentionally influencing one of her or his parents? I am not certain how the baby might be intending power, however recognition is probable - in the early stages perhaps less conscious.

But yes - it boils down to information - lots of it - the more the better. Communication is all about information.

I suggest in the case of the baby that the health of the group(being the family) as a whole is at times based on the baby’s influence and is rather innocent - but I am certain that we could debate that too - especially on ILP. I view the family as a unit of society.

Influence also comes in the flavor of innocence.

As for the first part, some men, some women.

INDIVIDUALS talk/discuss/brainstorm because it allows them to gain insight through their words and the words of others. If they are paying attention at the same time some things may perhaps come to them.

Then there are times when talking doesn’t actually solve problems. It is the NOT talking, not thinking, which will actually make it happen at some point…being above thought.

Hi surreptitious,

How are we doing?

I understand what you are saying but posting in a forum, at least to me, can still be considered to be talking conveying words, thoughts.
Also, have you never sensed spontaneous thought in here?
I wonder, if in the past when a group of philosophers got together, how least-intellectually demanding their philosophical discussions were? Is it possible that there discussions became so heated that they could be heard down the block?
Can sign language be considered as talking?

Possibly less demanding then you think when you have viewed particular threads/posts in here. :evilfun:
But I can agree with you in part. On the other hand, depending on who the individual is, there are some philosophers who may be just as meticulous and demanding of their self when it comes to talking philosophy.
I don’t think that anything is just one way or another.

Perhaps I am wrong in my thinking but there is the social aspect to it I think insofar as people are communicating with one another.
But I understand your perspective, from your hermetical leaning.

And that’s okay if that is the way you choose to be obviously.
But still, can you actually say that there is not at least, and then some, some amount or modicum of socializing?

Are you an island floating around without any connection or relating to others? I don’t think so.

Nice speaking with you, surreptitious. I’m glad that at times you come out of your cave. :mrgreen:

True. And it is a mistake to think that women in a relationship are complaining because they want the man to solve the problem. Most of the time, she merely wants comforting through her struggle. Men often annoy women by trying to solve their “problems”. What they sense as their real problems are seldom what they are talking about. They merely hint at their deeper issues while using talking and complaining to try to better posture for sake of the actual hidden concern (often indecipherable even to themselves).

James,

.

But there are women who are like that and there are men who are like that.

But for those who are not, I agree with you. Sometimes all a woman really wants IS the comfort of the man’s presence through her struggling. And that does not make a woman weak, it just makes her human.
And a woman may do the same for a man, through his struggling.
Good relationships have a give and take dynamic within them.

I wonder why that is? Are they trying to be helpful or are those men actually feeling some insecurity in the woman’s presence? It might more simply be that the man has been indoctrinated to believe that he has to indeed BE THE MAN and think for the woman.
No relationship is perfect.

Oh, I intuit this. Very often, what we view as the real problem is nothing to do with what is actually going on.
What we think is not the case.

I may be wrong but perhaps if there was more self-trust and other trust, they might share more intimately, even if they feel the fear because of that, and get at the real root of the problem, which may have begun eons before. This way all of that projection might begin to be let go of.

Some thoughts . . .

Agreed. At the first possible instance especially. The only exception I see to this is that if the man created the problem then maybe the woman is complaining because of it, however if he is discerning enough and takes away his arrogance then he can easily see the error in his way and move onto solving the problem.

Agreed.

I have experienced this - I know with good communication that women will happily come straight to the point. I have found when they are not being open it is usually because of something I have done or something they are perceiving I have done.

I do not entirely agree with this however. This to me seems to be a situation that they have been placed into and through influence they tend to maintain that situation. Women however remain one of the biggest mysteries at least in my universe.

:-k

Void_X_Zero

Yeah I agree with what you are saying for the most part. What is an example of one of the truths they do not want to know or have to confront? The answer to this may provide some insight into: Why do people sometimes have no desire to listen?

Perhaps someone else might have an idea on this one - I am not really well versed in politics.

Arcturus Descending

I am still interested in your thoughts on:

This Post . . .

and

This Post . . .

I still owe you my thoughts on:

This Post . . .

With what are you disagreeing?

Perhaps for a future thread; a discussion concerning suspicion, blame, fear of judgment, and hyper-defensiveness.

James

Thank you for illuminating this - it seems you are correct.

I am not too certain why I was looking at this in a way I thought different - perhaps mental exhaustion.

So now that I see how we agree here - This to me seems to be a situation that women have been placed into and through influence they tend to maintain that situation. I am wondering how it came to be the case that for the most part women have come to shut themselves off from men. I am thinking that men have given them some sort of reason not to have trust - at least part of that reason. So when a woman talks to a man - social influence dictates to her to proceed with caution. First of all she starts out with innocent inquiry and quickly learns the tricky nature of him.

Like you say: Perhaps for a future thread; a discussion concerning suspicion, blame, fear of judgment, and hyper-defensiveness.

People need to express experience. Talking is one way to do this. It is an externalization of ongoing internal dialog. To say something out loud allows one to hear it, which may sound different than thinking it. To talk to someone, if alternated with listening, allows for feedback and exchange from completely other than oneself.

It often is the case. They expect problems to be solved, and when they are not, they complain.
As I’ve said, this is because unlike men they are unable to accept reality if it is unpleasant i.e. if it triggers strong negative emotional reactions.
Basically, when it suggests negative consequences.
They are control freaks.
They can’t accept that they don’t have control over the situation.
Instead, they have to pretend that they do.
They feel more comfortable that way.
When she is worried about something, e.g. about her children, and her husband does not react fast enough to solve the problem, say because he simply can’t, she is less likely to accept the fact that nothing can be done about the situation (at least within the timeframe that she desires) and more likely to lose any respect she has for him and become hysterical.
For example, she may aggressively demand from him to do something ignoring the fact that he already is trying to do something.
Very common sight.
The approach is entirely ineffective – it’s destructive – but she does not care about that.

I somewhat agree . . .

Perhaps because nothing is as it seems - even internally. So to externalize our experience of our ongoing internal dialog which defines our self-concept in a relative and rudimentary way, we are able to hear ourselves and others are able to listen and provide feedback and exchange to reinforce the self-concept of both parties involved.

Sometimes we do not have the desire to talk to someone because we perceive a threat to our self-concept.

Other times we have a desire to talk to someone because the connection we perceive we have with them gives us hope that they can help build our self-concept.

Because nothing is as it seems - we become uncomfortable - we seek to clarify our own reality using our mind - emotion drives us to seek a rational resolution - in other words we desire to seek the disappearance of a symptom or condition that leads to discomfort and further confusion and subsequently we have the desire to talk. This makes me wonder whether talking(and communication(information[language])) once we understand it is mainly driven by emotions; I say this because sometimes we are seeking a rational conclusion to a faulty piece of logic contained within our mind.

encode_decode

I shall dub you Mr. List. :mrgreen:

Yes, I like how it speaks to/points out the inter-connectedness of humans.

…And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

Reminds me of the below:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

[quote]
I have in my mind the personal desire to talk and as well the social desires to talk
[/quote]
Do you mean intimate conversation and social chit chat?

 
[quote]
- with social acceptance we develop these new desires that are collective and sit next to our very own desires. Some of these desires that are social require belief to come into being - I think this is the case with a lot of religion and science.
[/quote]
Oh, I think I get it now.  Collective is a good word for it I think. Yes, shared beliefs create a really strong social order. Could be highly beneficial or highly detrimental as in Nazism.
[quote]
We desire the truth 
[/quote]
Do we really, do you think? Or perhaps what we desire is our own made-up version of the truth to fit in with our beliefs and desires. Perhaps I am more skeptical than is best for me to be. 
[quote]
- and when we find something that makes sense to us we tend to lend it some belief - any institution is just a case of what makes the most sense to the most people. When we are not happy with any given institution that has become a big part of us we tend to look for answers elsewhere. 
[/quote]
Exactly.  Do you think that this shows a good thing, a wise and intelligent thing? I don't know. I just want your estimation.
[quote]
Through talk or writ people are able to produce or maintain their self and sometimes a new institution is born . . .
[/quote]
True ~~ and too many of them for my liking.  Well, that would depend on what they were.  Let us not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
[quote]
We desire to talk because we are basically all social creatures, interconnected with one another though at times we may not realize this. It is through the talking, the sharing, that we sometimes come to know this for the first time, each time."

We are indeed social creatures and our social desires are not our own - our desire to talk can be both our own and social - personal and social.
[/quote]
I don't quite follow you here. I may not be *seeing* something here but why make a distinction between the two -  our own and social?  

 
[quote]
When a person wants to know themselves they are trying to remove the social noise from their internal environment.
[/quote]
This I do get. Things like meditation, reflection, solitude...ad continuum.
Also, others can clue us in about who we are if we are willing to listen.  Again, No Man is an Island.
[quote]
The overproduction of reality was a problem that I was facing at a simpler level and I think that through communication we are somehow able to deconstruct these overproduction's and store these results mentally as some sort of reference/s that propagate both ways to what is being referenced and to the reference/s.
[/quote]
I'm probably wrong here. I've been wrong one or two times in my life ( <img src="/uploads/default/original/2X/7/7fc2d9cf701d2c2c22729238172e5be83405063f.gif" width="15" height="17" alt=":evilfun:" title="Evil Fun"/> ) but are you plainly put, speaking about *thinking too much*? Please explain if you care to. 
Well, then again, an *overproduction of reality* can also  be, to me, when everything (reality) becomes too pressing at the same time and overwhelming.  When that time happens I think that we need *down* time quiet time , a long long walk alone, ALONE TIME and being sure to take all of the bats out of the belfry so to speak -- QUIETING OF THE MIND time. It so feng shuis the mind.
[quote]
"The desire to talk, at times, the need to talk, is spiritually/emotionally speaking, as important as eating and drinking."

"It is nourishing for the human psyche. If we are unable in some ways to communicate, to *relate* to others, we can shrivel up and die."

Our emotional state then becomes a type of "it all OK" or "its not all OK" flag. When all is OK then the white flag is raised and when all is not OK then the battle flag is raised. Talking becomes the medium to help each person ascertain their social state. 
[/quote]
HMMM... Maybe I'm misunderstanding you were.  I was speaking of a more profound sharing. 
Are you speaking here in terms of a *rant and rave* thing?
[quote]
So as we continue our exploration we encounter many other things that are related to our desire to talk
[/quote]
.

Yes and to read read read.

 
[quote]
From here we start developing abilities to ask the right questions - the right questions are related to our own desire and what is socially acceptable to ask.
[/quote]
 
I don't understand your *socially-acceptable to ask* unless it is a question which is highly personal and that can be in the mind of the beholder.  
[quote]
When we ask the wrong question our ability "to *relate* to others" becomes diminished. It also follows that for the answers - .
[/quote]
You have to establish what the wrong questions are, what YOU mean by the wrong question, encode_decode.
Are there wrong questions? Who knows. It might depend on the individual being asked, no?
Some people are more open and some people are more reserved and private. But I'm not sure what you are speaking of here. 
[quote]
if we do not offer answers when asked questions then our ability "to *relate* to others" becomes diminished
[/quote]
Are we speaking philosophy here or people asking questions on a more personal level?
Explain yourself, [b]Mr. List! [/b]  :stuck_out_tongue: 


Take care

encode_decode

True as for the first part.

Since when does it happen in that way?

What do you mean by *in what way?

So are you saying that self and ego are negatives and detrimental?
Or are you speaking of those who, for instance, have conversations which ONLY center around their self, needs, desires, world?

That’s an interesting and provoking statement. I could be flip and just say perhaps because our ancestors - way back - way back! -shared the same primordial soup, gook. But it’s a good question to ponder. Aside from needing one another in a universal sense to take away the sting of aloneness, though those self-imposed alonenesses can be wonderful, we also did evolve at some point from other little social creatures, well not from them but away from them. lol #-o You know what I mean.

This what is done in ILP, right? It’s a useful tool to discover our beliefs/perspectives and hopefully how much they are or may not be in line with reality.

But I realize that you are speaking of the more personal sense here.
I agree with you. I think it can be beneficial to call to mind conversations, any kind of interactions with others. We can get to know who we are by the way in which we relate to others. It also shows what we are missing from ourselves.

True. I don’t recall if I was using the universal we or not. But that’s true.
We desire to be made whole and be in harmony with all things.
Many of us do anyway.
I can agree with your friend ~ and ~ sometimes we are dictators to our own selves.
I think that the more patient we can learn to be with ourselves, the more patient we will tend to be with others - and visa versa.

But isn’t there also harmony within the choice two people make to agree to disagree with graciousness?
But I understand how you are using the word - a form of achieved synergy.

I am not a particular fan of red though pomegranate seeds are beautiful, they shimmer like rubies in the light.
But I suppose that that isn’t true either. I do like red in certain things of nature. I do not like red when it comes to fashion. (no idle chit chat here).
But I think that if I were to describe how certain colors make me feel, you would know my sense of qualia toward it.
Language allows us to tell others how we feel if we really feel it.

Sounds pretty complete and harmonious to me. :angelic-blueglow:
Sufficient!? Having one Reese’s peanut butter cup is sufficient. (well, no, I’m lying here. :evilfun: ) :evilfun: But it shall suffice.

Flow on.

Arcturus Descending

A few thoughts come to mind. Unless I am losing my mind - that is also a possibility.

I wonder what one could do about it if they were losing their mind. I somewhat agree with WendyDarling here - there is degree of possibility that a person can identify when they are losing their mind. I think too that there is a degree as to which somebody could imagine that they are losing their mind too.

When it comes to my mind, I always allow for the possibility that I could lose it. This is not something that I suggest to everyone. Everybody should exercise their mind to a degree - those that don’t might not be aware that they are losing it. Those that use their mind very intensely could be called extreme thinkers; I believe these people could also lose their mind - especially the part that relates to being social.

Are there some questions in life . . . that by searching for the answer . . . can make you lose your sanity?

:laughing:

Arcturus Descending

I asked: Why would I lose my desire to talk? And you responded:

Is it rhetorical indeed? Sometimes people do though lose their desire to talk. Whether it starts out based on an anti-social tendency or not might hold some clues. Sometimes a person just wants to quiet their mind . . . sometimes a person is so into what they are doing that talking is not an option for them.

There are very likely many different reasons a person might lose their desire to talk. Might I remind you of:

I wonder how much we don’t know about about the compulsion to talk.

Yes but it need not be fear that compels us to talk - I know that you know that. Sometimes we are so excited to share something with someone for what ever reason that we can not contain that something we desire to share so we must get it out by sharing it - in turn talking about it. So many reasons to feel compelled to talk.

One reason for feeling compelled to talk I often wonder about: Why the hell do people offer their opinions at inappropriate times? I might add; and are not usually asked for their opinions in the first place. You know those times when you just want someone to listen to you but they insist on interrupting with an opinion.

:angry-screaming: