on discussing god and religion

I suppose what I was trying to express is whether or not determinism in the gene and the meme provides a straightjacket limiting anything one could say or do. Is there possible freedom of individual thought given one’s physical and mental heritage? Do I have to buy the idea of afterlife rewards or punishments?

This seems reasonable to me. Religion, when push comes to shove, revolves largely around attaining a frame of mind that allows you to accumulate just enough in the way of an emotional cushion to endure all the things that really are beyond your control. And then to assign blame – the Devil, the infidels, your own sins – regarding those things that you aren’t quite sure about.

Here though we find any number of particular contexts in which we are not able solve our problems. In other words, regardless of how much of an honest and sincere effort we put into making the attempt.

Sometimes things just overwhelm us. Bad things – terrible things – happen to good people [the true believers] all the time.

And that’s when religious narratives will shift gears and place the focus more on God’s “mysterious ways”.

We took responsibility, we tried to change things, but to no avail.

But to no avail only because it is all embodied in God’s Will.

Just as [eventually] our immortality and salvation will become the embodiment of God’s Will.

Is your latest post a reply to another thread or does it apply to this one also? Would being totally responsible for what one does or thinks somehow prevent justice from being deferred to some afterlife in many minds?

My point though is not what we have to “buy”, but the extent to which that which we have already bought “in our heads” is something that we are able to demonstrate that all reasonable folks are obligated to “buy” in turn.

That, in other words, believing something is true is not the same thing as showing others why they should believe it too.

And what else is there [relating to God] that we have “for all practical purposes” in order to exchange conversations which either facilitate or obstruct our interactions with others?

And the bottom line is that we just don’t know for sure if any of this is only as it ever could have been in a wholly determined world.

Here [just as with God] we take our leaps of faith.

Unless of course I’m wrong.

But: How on earth would I go about determining that? And how on earth would others go about demonstrating that?

After all, there are so many things here that I [b]want[/b] to be wrong about.

Basically what I do on this thread is to bring points of view that I find on other threads here.

Why? Because the points that they raise may have little or nothing to do with the manner in which I construe God and religion.

I bring their assumptions here in order to comment on them given the assumptions that I make.

Again, my narrative here revolves less around what others might imagine being “totally responsible” means as this pertains to “justice” before or after the grave, and more around how they go about connecting these dots in the course of actually living their lives – lives that precipitate conflicts relating precisely to these relationships.

Only my aim is always to embody them existentially.

Eternity is here and now, not here after anything.
Every doubt is a belief.
A God experience can be shared by those whose qualia of the experience match reasonably.
Living this life for rewards in an afterlife is self centered and not what the spiritual masters espouse.
Ecological morality provides the only antidote for man’s trashing of natural resources and constant wars.
It is easy to demand proof of spiritual matters by those who do not try to experience God.
Reason has its limitations in the head, not so in the spirit.

You post things like this because you believe things like this. And not for a moment do I doubt either the importance or the earnestness of this “spiritual” assessment to you.

But [from my frame of mind] it really has little or nothing to do with the intent, the focus of this thread.

In other words, to take words of this sort out into the world of human interactions and to assess their relevance when human behaviors actually do come into conflict. As this is pertinent to assessments that include God and religion.

Sure, you might make it all the way to the grave entirely avoiding that sort of exchange with others. And you will have succeeded then in sustaining the comfort and consolation that your beliefs afford you. Comfort and consolation I no longer have.

Yes, I really, really, really do get that part.

The part about believing that something is true. Being able to.

But that’s not the part that interest me the most here.

I’m sorry you incorrectly attributed the quote to a charlatan.
I’m also sorry the quote was taken out of context which reversed its meaning.

Division was my intention. I want to divide both the left’s new-age religion AND the right wings traditional/fundamentalism from true spirituality.

I want to divide those who perpetually argue over the finger pointing to the moon from those who are actually gazing at the moon.

The fingers pointing at the moon are belief systems, theories or dogmas of ANY kind – left or right, traditional or new age.

Regardless of who’s pointing, the pointing finger is not the Truth. Even if you point at the moon better than anyone else in history ever has, that is STILL not the Truth.

The aim of pointing, ironically, is to get people to look AWAY from the finger pointing and towards that which it is pointing to. To see the moon, you have to abandon your focus on the finger. The finger, of course, refers to ones’ beliefs, concepts, understandings hope and wishes.

My anger at fake spiritual teachers like Chopra is that they make their fortunes from deceiving people into thinking it’s about choosing the correct finger/concept/belief. In doing so, they prevent their disciples from ever seeing the moon themselves. I think I have a valid point for being angry or divisive.

Speaking of being divisive… few people have been more divisive than Siddhartha and Jesus. This is positive division - separating organised group-think (finger pointing) from personal realization (the moon).

Christ is perhaps the greatest divider in history. He was a true revolutionary and is said to have come with a sword – not to kill - but to separate and divide.

Jesus said: “Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but sword (sometimes translated as division).” He said he came to divide one family member from another… “they will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter…." and that “a man’s enemies will be the members of his household”

Jesus also divided people by separating the disciples from ‘luke-warm’ followers who he said he would spew out of his mouth. He divided people by criticizing the Rabbis by calling them hypocrites and challenging their authority.

There’s no political correctness in spirituality. There’s just spiritual correctness and when you take it seriously, it’s often, brutal. Chopra wont tell you about anything like this because he’s selling sweetness and light. He’s offering to make your dream cozier and more comfortable while the true masters are violently shaking you and hitting you with sticks to wake you up.

I don’t know where the subject of money comes from? I didn’t ‘hint’ at anything about money but I’ll respond by asking you this:

Do you think Jesus’ act of overturning the money-changers tables in the temple grounds also ‘hints at the fundy justice system of rewards and punishment’?

What about when he said: “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” or when he warned about storing up treasure on earth where moth and vermin destroy and thieves steal? What about when he said you cannot serve two masters… you cannot serve both God and mammon?

Do these also hint at a ‘fundy’ justice system?

For me, it’s not about money per se. It’s about attachment. Being attached to making money is an addiction. Chopra has amassed $80 million (writing books on deeply spiritual subjects that include diet, how to look younger and how to be successful :laughing: ) and yet he still doesn’t have enough. His kids said he is an absentee father; they don’t know him. He may as well have been addicted to drugs or in prison as far as his relationship with his kids goes. He didn’t leave his family to serve God as Jesus’ disciples did. He abandoned his family to serve his addiction to fame and mammon.

I see no difference between the leftist new-age false ‘profits’ like Chopra and these right-wing fundies.

EDIT: Having said all that. I don’t expect or want anything to change. People want to be fooled and charlatans want to people to fool. Everything is as it’s meant to be.

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CS, I don’t know enough about Chopra to be considered a fan. I do, however, appreciate such works as “The War of the Worldviews” for its presentation of both scientific and spiritual concepts. I have no problem with your religious views.
Be that as it may, the problem at hand is Iamb’s dismissal of ideas as " in the head" using ideas in his head.

No problem.

It’s a “problem” only to the extent you ignore the distinction I make between those things that you do believe “in your head” and those things that you either are or are not able to demonstrate to others are, in fact, reasonable to believe.

What is it reasonable to believe about your own spiritual narrative? Insofar as the discussion revolves around the behaviors you choose on this side of the grave and that which you anticipate your fate to be on the other side of it.

But you won’t go there will you?

Or even risk an exchange with me that explores the reasons why.

And I’ve been there believe me. I know what is at stake in the way of comfort and consolation.

It seems you are missing the point that rational people will espouse both your religious narrative and mine. I do not have to go anywhere to have reasonable people agree with my take on the matter. Anything either of us attempts to demonstrate to some other rational person comes from our separate subjective selves. Objectivity among the myriad personal viewpoints amounts to consensus of agreement. Subjectivity is the hard problem, not only for those who would attempt to define consciousness, but for whoever would attempt to describe any metaphysical concept.

No, my point is that espousing [believing] a narrative is one thing, demonstrating how/why it is a frame of mind that all reasonable men and women are obligated to espouse [believe] another thing altogether.

For example, one can provide a narrative encompassing the history of Christianity. There are historical facts about it that one is more or less able to demonstrate as true. All reasonable men and women would seem obligated to believe this or that about it. Why? Because there are events that can be more or less established.

Instead, I shift the discussion [on this thread] to examining the narratives of those who do accept the Christian faith. And I ask them to embody that belief in/by/through connecting the dots between their behaviors on this side of the grave and their perceived fate on the other side. What here can be established such that reasonable men and women are obligated to concur?

Yes, but, again, look what is at stake here!!!

Your take [here and now] on God and religion has to eventually come to grips with the reality of death. Something will happen to us after we die. And the overwhelming preponderance of religious folks insist that all revolves around one or another rendition of Judgment Day.

You don’t believe that. But you offer absolutely no substantive reasons why others ought not to believe that too.

You merely point out that you have managed to “think” your way into believing this. And, in having done so, you are able to sustain a measure of psychological comfort and consolation.

Basically you are arguing that whatever your particular “subjective self” has manged to come up with is all that matters. If it “works” to bring you some measure of equanimity, you’re clearly better off.

And you won’t get any argument about that from me.

All I can do is to note this:

That until you are willing to intertwine a “general description” argument of this sort into an examination of actual human behaviors “out in the world” – a world where there are countless conflicting religious and secular narratives – you are content to just accept that what you believe “in your head” need be as far as you go.

That works for you. For all practical purposes.

Okay, but in a philosophy venue?

On this thread however the focus would be more on closing the gap between what you believe about the soul and that which you are actually able to demonstrate to others is something that they ought to believe about it as well.

As for Judgment Day, here the aim is to discuss the changes in your life experientially. As more or less existential contraptions. As they prompt you to behave one way rather than another.

And then the extent to which the behaviors that you do choose are intertwined in a soul that either does attain immortality and salvation or does not.

I see nothing in your OP that could compel belief from a majority of rational individuals. I see instead self-centered, fear-based notions that may be considered religious, but not spiritual.
So, this is a philosophy forum. It is listed as religion and spirituality, both of which entail subjective responses. Objectivity in this arena best amounts to pragmatic considerations of the effects ones personal beliefs will have for the prospect of the amelioration of the human condition.

The OP revolved around an exchange I was having with zinnat. He had his own rendition of God. And he was intent on showing me that a belief in God was within the reach of the philosopher.

And, after he was able to establish that, then we would explore the parts that most interested me.

But: He has his rendition of this, I have mine.

And my aim is always to explore the limitations of rational thought in examining these interactions. In other words, with respect to either religion or morality, I always focus an exchange on the extent to which we may well be afforded only leaps of faith.

But one thing that seems clearly reasonable to me is that religious narratives revolve first and foremost around the manner in which any particular one of us connects the dots in our head between the behaviors that we choose here and now, a particular belief in God and religion and how the two together precipitate a frame of mind regarding our imagined fate “beyond the grave”.

And then [this being a philosophy venue] the extent to which we are able to translate that which we believe into an argument [with evidence] that will allow others to share what we believe.

As opposed to, say, a discussion of these things in church or around the campfire or in a bar or at the family dinner table.

To which you note:

Another “general description” prescription. And yet the bottom line remains the same: that there are any number of conflicting and contradictory “personal beliefs” rooted in any number of conflicting and contradictory moral/political narratives aimed at ameliorating the human condition…

…but only if everyone goes about doing this in the right way.

Your way. Or his way or her way or our way or their way.

And with or without God.

But that’s where I come in. My aim is to explore these conflicting value judgments from the perspective of dasein.

Again, with or without God.

It’s just that, with you, things could not possibly be rosier. Why? Because no matter what we do on this side of the grave God will embrace us on the other side of it.

And this is true because you believe that this is true.

And that comforts and consoles you.

End of story. Your story.

And that’s always the bottom line.

But only here and only now.

What we can discuss intersubjectively, with the prospect of mutual understanding, are synonymous qualia at the roots of shared, personal experience. My concepts of God may not be to your liking. Are anyone’s? While claiming to search for rational concepts discussing god, you seem to align with the irrational notions of an omnipotent deity who loses human souls to a powerful adversary. Of course a philosopher can have a belief in God. Spinoza comes to mind.

If one cannot see human evolution as personal and purposeful. a god that is compassionate and empathetic would appear as a “rosy” myth. Centuries of saints would be liars. There would be no cause for ecological morality beyond admitting to the threat of possible human extinction.

I have been trying to explain the problem of how to communicate the felt reality of personal experience to those who have not had that experience and admit to no prospect of having it. It is difficult to communicate with anyone who thinks there is some objective shade of truth in a belief shared by a number of rational individuals, who believes an experience is all in the head and holds that these experiences are isolate, customized-- hence invalid;
I claim that belief held by a majority of rational individuals is not necessarily validated by numbers;
that anyone who tries can have similar personal experiences to those I have had;
and that God is greater in personal and purposeful power than the God of rewards and punishments.

All I can do here is to note yet again the distinction between what a Catholic might claim to believe about the existence of the Catholic Church, and what she might claim to believe about the existence of the Catholic God.

There are aspects of religion able to be confirmed as “true objectively for all of us”. And there are aspects embedded only in a subjective/subjunctive frame of mind embedded existentially in the manner in which I construe the meaning of dasein.

On this thread though, I point out the obvious: that subjective beliefs prompt folks to behave in conflicting ways. And that the overwhelming preponderance of religious folks insist that God will judge these behaviors. In other words, that immortality and salvation itself are at stake. With or without the Devil.

Existentially, you have managed to believe in something that consoles and comforts you. And that’s the part that is at stake if you begin to doubt it.

Trust me: I’ve been there.

You claim this frame of mind is rooted in personal experiences, but you have been unable to make this clear to me.

And Spinoza managed much the same.

But: What does Spinoza manage today?

If anything at all?