“True believers” don’t consume and don’t engage in politics, economics or finance?
What do “true believers” do?
I dunno Phyllo … never met one … and it seems impossible to separate fact from fiction in the historical accounts of those who may have been true believers.
For example … legend suggests some of the nuns who lived in one of St Teresa (Avila) convents complained about her fear of starving to death … the convent relied on alms.
St Teresa apparently answered … we should be so lucky.
Is this story true?
Speaking for myself … I’m working on it but seems I’m still at square one.
Reminds me of the Arab axiom … trust in God but tie your camel tight. 
St Teresa : Does she represent what God wants or expects from the “true believer”?
The default is agnostism - no belief one way or another.
Some of us have that “mystery” absolutely resolved.
That is certainly true (as we often run across here).
Well, I can do that. It doesn’t take an atheist. I suspect that you are presuming a false dichotomy.
“Some of us have that ‘mystery’ absolutely resolved.”[
“Well, I can do that. It doesn’t take an atheist. I suspect that you are presuming a false dichotomy.”
Indeed?! Well, don’t leave us hanging! Pray enlighten us (or at least me).
Thank you.
That is a long story that I have been talking about on this forum for years. I call it “Rational Metaphysics: Affectance Ontology”. But the false dichotomy that I referenced would be the notion that “either the universe had a beginning or conversely, there is no God”. That is a false notion.
God, being the cause of the universe and being eternal, is the very reason that the universe has always existed and always will. Wherever there is the cause, there is immediately the result (else there wasn’t sufficient cause). The concept of the Big Bang started as a joke, caught on due to a catholic priest seeing the utility of it, and has been promoted for socio-political-religious reasons ever since. The BB is an absurd, irrational impossibility.
God did not “begin the universe” God is the reason for or cause of (aka “First/Prime Cause”) of the universe. God is the very fundamental principle from which all existence stems.
I don’t see how you discerned that I was positioning such a dichotomy from anything I’ve written here or elsewhere. I actually agree with you entirely in substance, but differ in form. The difference between us (apparently) is how we view “God.” See my post under Philosophy on the “Why is consciousness?” thread in which I position undifferentiated, universal Consciousness as what you refer to as God, rather than an anthropomorphic, personal deity. This is accordance with the Eastern ontological view predicated upon the Upanishads.
However, my paradigm doesn’t preclude The occurrence of the Big Bang or other (seemingly) physical phenomena. I simply view them as manifestations of Consciousness with no fundamental reality of their own. The illusion of material realty, however, is so powerful that we experience them as it they were real as for all intents and purposes, they are, just as we can be freighted out of our wits, for example, by a nightmare.
I don’t refer to God as “universal consciousness”. To me, consciousness is an emergent property of the affectance that forms the physical universe.
Mine does.
I suspect a definition of “reality”, “physical reality”, or “existence” would be in order. You seem to be either a solipsist, relativist, perceptionist, or mentalist (or some combination thereof).
I refer to the metaphysical paradigm based upon the Upanishads as “corporate solipsism,” as opposed to what I term “radical solipsism.” Again, see my aforementioned post, if interested. For now, rest assured that I believe that you exist as I wouldn’t be wasting my time communicating with a figment of my imagination.
Ohhhh … don’t count on that one … (said the guilt complex to the paranoid) :-"
I don’t know … with any degree of certainty … that I don’t know.
In my life … I have already traveled 61.5 billion kilometers and I never experienced … as in conscious recognition of this travel … a single kilometer.
How can I say … with any degree of certainty … that God hasn’t "held my hand’ during all of this travel?
As soon as one believes in God, then one automatically believes that there is a particular relationship with God. God interacts with the world in some way, He interacts with others in some way and He interacts with the believer in some way.
So when one talks about a “true believer”, then one is referring to a better way of interaction as compared to an “average believer” or “hypocritical believer”.
Certainty is only a minor aspect of it.
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An appealing ‘cornerstone’ Phyllo … let me try to ‘lay a stone’ beside it. If I err in understanding the underlying intentions of your above comment … the error is mine … fruit of my arrogance … and I beg forgiveness in advance.
The words “better way” point to an ever-increasing understanding … knowing … fueled almost entirely by personal experience.
Let me try to illustrate by sharing a personal experience from yesterday.
First some context.
My wife is farming 2-3 acres … largely by hand … and she has dragged me into participating in her enterprise. My reluctance to participate is shrinking … I’m learning a lot through participation … though I’m still selfish enough to keep some time and energy for my personal enterprise.
Yesterday afternoon we went on an inspection tour … walked around her gardens … her garden is not one contiguous parcel of land.
My keen observations lead to some profound thoughts:
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We have had very little rain in the past month or so … the soil is like a dust bowl The young unhealthy plants seemed to be crying out … water … water … water … please! The seeds that have yet to germinate and sprout seem to be uttering the same plea.
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Shortly after this observation I experienced a gut-wrenching feeling of angst. On reflection I understood my feelings to be rooted in how much we take food for granted. For most of the people in the world food security is a trip to the local supermarket. This wasn’t always the case … and today’s supermarkets may not always exist.
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Reflected on the feast still celebrated in the West … Thanksgiving. I felt … at a much deeper level … the underlying intentions of the first instances of celebrating Thanksgiving Day. The feast is a relic of the past with no significance today. Western people might better celebrate a Zuckenberg proclamation … since he embodies what almost all people in the world aspire towards. Namely … fortune and fame … and by association the power that comes in it’s wake.
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I better understand why more than one billion Chinese people work so hard every day … it’s in their jeans. Their ancestors survived generation after generation of hardship(s) … and that impressive survival was largely the fruit of hard physical labour.
I don’t think that St Teresa’s actions point to increased understanding. I think they point to increased confusion.
You (or at least some who you respect) seem to think that she did have some “ever-increasing understanding”. The question is why do you think so?
Take for example, her ordering weekly flagellation in the convent. Isn’t that completely out of sync with God and Jesus?
The entire concept of “mortifying the body” seems to point to confusion. It’s a denial of the physical nature of existence. If God did not want you to have a physical body and a life on Earth in that body, then He would not have made you or the world.
More intentional deflection Phyllo?
You raised the flagellation issue with me before … my feelings haven’t changed … I have no urge to punish … mutilate … my body … yet … I understand why other people have/do … different strokes for different folks.
Seems there is little or no hope of bringing e-exchanges to a discussion of personal experiences as they unfold … ergo today’s personal experiences are more relevant than yesterdays … despite their being connected by a thread(s).
Endless discussion of the experiences of “other individuals” always seems to lead to a dead end street.
I don’t know what you mean. I’m still trying to figure out what you mean by “true believer”. I have been doing that consistently in all my posts in this thread.
This is the part that I don’t get :
Believing in God and consuming, or engaging in politics or economics is “hypocritical” but flagellation is just “different strokes for different folks”. (And presumably flagellation is done by “true believers”.)
Why isn’t consumerism, politics or economics just “different strokes for different folks”?
Take running a business, for example : A business might raise the standard of living for thousands of people. So running a business and believing in God are not exactly incompatible. Yet you and quite a few other religious people seem to frown on it.
You can see farther by standing on the shoulders of giants. Why start from scratch when others have already done so much hard work that you can use to your advantage?
That’s the entire point of education. If we had to rely only on our own experiences, then we would still be living in caves and trying to figure out how to make a fire.
If someone did something well in the past … learn from it.
If someone did something poorly in the past … learn from it.
It’s anything but a dead-end.
APPEND after a search of the forum:
Odd. I haven’t used the word ‘flagellation’ on ILP until this thread. Nor did I use ‘mortify’ or ‘mortification’.
I can’t imagine what you are referring to. 
It appears my senility is more advanced than I figured.
I apologize.
OTH … I am yet again amazed by the mystery of ‘spirit’ … my fickle memory lead me to this “gem”
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Phyllo … seems you are making progress … progress as in breaking the chains that bind you … I encourage you to be patient
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About business … let me cite a hypothetical example … hypothetical yet it happens every day every where.
An artisan patiently and lovingly crafts an equisitely beautiful sculpture … gives it to his friend as an expression of his love for his friend.
His friend sells the gift for profit(business).
Is the ‘selling for profit’ an expression of gratitude to the giver?
I see where this is going.
Have a good one.
Given the following;
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The “Fear of Death” [inhibited as a subliminal angst] is THE Primary Motivator of Religions and other human activities.
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The current lower state of the spiritual and secular competence of the majority;
theism is the current default paradigm for the the majority.
Non-theism [atheism] is nevertheless on a rising trend [natural progress] to replace and will become the default in the near future [optimistically].
