Why is Islam [in part] So Evil?

Diverting to Trump is off topic for this OP.

It only supposedly the same God.

The Quran cursed in very strong terms the Jews and Christians corrupted the original words or revelation of God. Therefore the Torah and Gospels that the Jews and Christians are holding, reading and believing are corrupted and thus are the worst sinners [Shirk], i.e. attributing partners to the only God.
The Quran do not agree the polluted God of the Jews and Christians attributed with sons and partners are the same as their pure monotheistic God - there is none but Allah.
Since the Jews and Christians had committed Shirk -one of the greatest sin in Islam - that is a threat to Islam and thus must be ‘exterminated’ as a main theme of the ideology.

This is one reason [amongst others] why Islam-in-part [not whole] is so malignant and evil.

To understand one need to understand what is in the Quran that made is so malignant and evil in reality as committed by SOME Muslims.

As stated in the Quran, the hajj [pilgrimage to Mecca] is not compulsory but only for those who can afford it. There are many scholars who dispute and assert the related ‘hajj’ verses in the Quran do not actually meant ‘pilgrimage to Mecca’. This hajj pilgrimage and its protocol was twisted from the verses so that the clergy can maintain control and made money.

I am not sure what ‘context’ you would like to bring in?

I agree ‘virus’ is a good analogy for ideology. Another milder one is ‘meme’ but ‘virus’ would be preferable in this case.
However, since Islam-in-part is SO evil, I would prefer bring in ‘malignancy’ as in cancer cells which exist in all humans but are under control except when triggered by some weakness in the system.
In any case ‘virus’ can be used interchangeable with ‘malignant’ cells where both will serve the purpose to some degrees.

At first Muhammad thought he was possessed by the devil or jinn when he experienced terrible fears. It is only natural such terrible experience of fears can only from the devil or jinn. If it was God, Muhammad would have experienced awe, reverence and bliss.
He calmed down only after his wife [familiar with Jewish and Christian prophecies] comforted him [ignorantly or deliberately?] that some holy spirit has visited him and he was the chosen messiah.
So Muhammad started preaching [insulting the then existing religions] but he was mocked as a madman by the Pagans, Jews and Christians then. This is the significant reason* why he hated the Jews and Christians because they altered the texts that led to the denial of his messiah-hood. *like Hitler hated Jews for some reasons.

The above is a significant clue, Islam was actually born out of the mental sickness of someone called Muhammad. Muhammad got away with it because it was 700 AD+ and there were no psychiatrists then to diagnose his problem scientifically and objectively like we could at present.

People hearing voices - objectively, researched and cured - is a symptom of some kind of mental illness, schizophrenia, temporal epilepsy, etc.
This psychological problem is well researched.
Note this experienced a certain altered states of consciousness that convinced him he was an agent of God. Instead of recognizing he is God his father sent him to a psychiatrist and neuro-scientist which was the right thing to do in our current time.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIiIsDIkDtg[/youtube]

If this guy or others who has similar experiences happened 2000 or 1500 years ago, and if he was charismatic enough he could get away with starting a new religion, like Muhammad did.

If Muhammad experienced that sort of hearing of voices in 2017, his wife would have sent him to see a psychiatrist. If he tried to claim he is the chosen messiah, most would be able to see through to his madness and be confirmed by some reputable psychiatrists and will be assigned the appropriate treatment.

Yes.

Note my other thread, ‘Fear of Death’ as a primary motivator of Religions.
Religions had been abused on a massive scale for various reasons.
As you can infer, Islam was mixed with Politics when Muhammad incorporated political elements into Islam and his follower grew from 150 to 100,000++ within 10 years and had been expanding since 1,400 to the present by infected people with such a violent virus.

I don’t deny in other cases Islam was spread by non-violence means.
But since Islam is in part inherently evil, this is the spreading of potential evil by non-violent means. This is evident by the glaring number of evils and violent events committed by SOME Muslims around the World.
When any country of group get serious with Islam [being truer Muslims] there is a corresponding increase in evil [of various degrees] and violence.
A good example is the spread of Islam by traders via the sea to South East Asia, but note the increase of evils and violence when Islam is practiced more seriously or made more pronounced in their political and social environment as in Southern Thailand, S. Philippines, Brunei, Indonesia, Malaysia, Myanmar.

Btw, what solid evidences would you need to agree convincingly with the OP?

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yourgenome.org/stories/evolu … uman-brain

Some argue that the biology of the human brain hasn’t changed in the past 100,000 years.

While the biology may not have changed … human consciousness has sure changed.

Let’s move from biosphere to atmosphere.

Our atmosphere permits us to travel at 30 kilometres per second without feeling a thing. A truly remarkable feat … the atmosphere has unknowable capabilities.

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin claims there is a third sphere beyond the atmosphere … the Noosphere. If true, what are the capabilities of such a sphere?

For example:

A virus is a “Being Within Form” … the physical properties of the virus can be seen with a microscope.

What if ideology is a “Being Without Form”. This would answer a lot of questions.

I’m convinced that as long as humanity resists acknowledging the possibility that ideology is a “Being Without Form” we will face ever increasing levels of violence and hostility.

Other than the main structures, the average human brain size, connectivities and quality definitely has changed since 200,000 years ago.
I believe the average brain size changes and increases very slowly like the growth of a stalagmite.
However the average connectivity patterns [algorithms] between the synapses would be changing more significantly faster within the human brain.

I agree an ideology is “Being Without Form.”
However an ideology is not an independent being but rather conditioned only upon the collective of humans.
It is like an ‘emergence’ with specific characteristics that emerges from the interactions of human consciousness.

What about your view re ‘ideology’ as a ‘meme’ and memetics;
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme

I don’t think humanity is resisting but rather they are ignorant of your idea.

I agree ‘ideology’ is a “Being Without Form” but I believe an ideology can either be good or evil totally, net good or net evil.
Islam is an ideology but why Islam-in-part is SO evil is because inherent within Islam there are very malignant evil elements right from the start the day Islam was initiated.

Some questions are how it is that the evil elements of the Islamic ideology can spread so virally within humans that result in terrible evils and violence around the world, the most recent case as in Manchester, Britain.

I can’t discuss the anatomy or the functionality(s) of the human brain. I lack the knowledge and the interest/motivation. I’m a small town mind with a propensity for the big picture. :slight_smile:

Here’s my big picture:

  1. Our senses exist to support survival on this planet … end of story.

  2. Somewhere in the anatomy/biology of a human is another system that operates beyond/outside the senses. This system has 3 components. A transmitter … a receiver … and a processor. My guess is the transmitter/receiver is DNA … every cell of the human body contains DNA. The brain is the processor(CPU)

  3. Speculation on how the system operates is futile … we simply can’t know. Reminds me of Confucius … he acknowledged this “system” but persistently refused to talk about it. Seems he too understood the futility of speculation.

For me … ideology(s) is/are a manifestation of this “system”.

As I mentioned in an earlier post … ideology … like a virus … needs a host for incubation/gestation and propagation. Seems humans are the “host of choice” for ideology(s). :slight_smile:

Not sure how your points are tied to the OP.
Never mind if you are got off the groove.

It would benefit a lot for you if you can set aside some time [one or two hours a day for a week] to understand the mechanics of your own brain and mind, i.e. Know Thyself -Socrates
This link will give you a general idea;
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_brain
then follow up on the links re Emotions and Executive Function which has the greatest impact on one’s day to day life.
This will give a greater understanding of the objectives of Eastern Spirituality’s attempts to modulate the brain and mind via meditation and other processes.

I believe it is critical to understand the ‘micro’ and ‘macro’ simultaneously and complimentarily like the Yin-Yang model.

I don’t agree we should give up on any ‘system’ until we have exhausted all possible knowledge of it, then as Wittgenstein proposed;
“What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence.”
plato.stanford.edu/entries/wittgenstein/

One obvious thing we cannot conceive in mind is a contradiction, e.g. a square-circle.
‘Pass over in silence’ in this case meant don’t bother with searching for it in reality, but nevertheless we can still discuss why we must pass it over in silence.
Another is the ‘thing-in-itself’ of Kant where we do not speak of it positively but only in the negative.

Btw, do you have any points that are directly related to the OP?

In our physical reality … I’m an old man … I find stooping difficult.

In our intellectual reality my experience is the same … :slight_smile:

Your opening 2 statements in this OP:

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I assumed the word “why” implied your intention to probe/explore root cause(s) … if one picks up a grain of sand on the beach and studies it ad infinitum one’s knowledge of humanity improves … how much?

Seems I was mistaken … your subsequent posts suggest you intended to use this OP as a platform to broadcast your hatred of Islam.

Noted and understand. Express whatever you like and hopefully our ideas could match.

That is the problem with many people these days.
The terrible evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims who are evil prone is so obvious and yet the slightest critique and mention of it is immediately deemed at hatred. There is something very wrong with humans on this matter.

I am not officially a Buddhist but I adopt one of the Bodhisattva’s vow of being compassionate and helping all sentient beings wherever possible.
Now I am exposed to so much terrible evils from one sector of humanity, obviously my empathy is triggered and thus drive me to do something.
I believe I can contribute [having the relevant expertise] much to research and discuss the root cause of this particular problem, i.e. Islamic-based terror, evil and violence.

I am aware there are so much of other types of evils in the world but I don’t have the expertise to contribute effective in other areas than Islamic-based evils. That is why I raised the OP for its discussion to get views from others besides my own research.

When you perceived criticisms and finding root causes as ‘hatred’ you are proposing everyone should be an ostrich to the facts of terrible Islamic based evils.

Btw, I believed there is another reason why many people are avoiding [so painful to touch on] the discussion of Islamic terrors, evils and violence. This can be traced to the ‘primal fear of death’ and the associated cognitive dissonance I raised in the other thread. The theory is based an understanding of the brain mechanisms. I won’t go into the details unless you are really interested.

Are you reading Jacob’s OP … “The Tree of Life Exploded”

My last post in this OP … a few minutes ago … may help you understand my stubbornness … if you are interested. :slight_smile:

I can understand and accept why you are stubborn.
Generally stubborn_ness and resistance to change is due to insecurity and low self esteem.

But it also an effect and consequences from those who are older.
As one grows older, the effectiveness of most of one’s faculty began to wane Naturally due to the greater atrophy of brain cells.
With lesser controls, the ego and mind will close in to protect its integrity with defensiveness, stubbon_ness and all sorts of resistance. This is a very natural thing, so I can understand your position.

Note this interesting research,

Even the once most notable militant atheist, Anthony Flew, succumb to the above in his later years and became a deist. This happen to many [not all] atheists.

Best wishes to you on whatever you do.

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For millennia … in most cultures … young people would seek advice from their elders … the experience(s) of elders was considered superior to the knowledge and vigour of the younger inexperienced members of society.

Times they are a changin! :laughing:

True story:

I had initially intended to include my reaction to the OP in my own “on discussing god and religion” thread. I only accidently left it in this thread. My apologies.

Well, here’s one take on that: npr.org/2015/12/20/460480698 … e-same-god

Like most things of this sort it all gets rather complex and convoluted over time.

Basically [in my view] all you do here is to accumulate your own particular collection of religious prejudices and argue that all rational and virtuous men and women are obligated to agree.

Or to, among others things, take a leap of faith to.

Much the same way in which those of the Moslem faith do regarding the Bible and the Torah.

SOME Moslems anyway.

Again, my apologies for intruding on your thread. It was not originally my intention.

I’m from the Marvin Harris school of anthropology. The materialists. In other words, in order to understand elements of the “superstructure” in any particular human community, you need first to explore the manner in which it is intertwined [historically] in economic interactions. That’s the part that revolves around power. Political power. And that’s the part where one or another religious narrative tends to prevail in one or another nation in one or another historical and cultural context…

You are very wrong on this.
The fact is all Christians and Muslims has to rely ultimately on faith, there is no other option for them.
Prove to me I am rely on faith [like Christians and Muslims] rather than empirical justified evidences and reasoned arguments.

The most common news at present is the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME believers who are Muslims. [I insist they are Muslims if you want to debate on this].
Therefore to run away or be an ostrich to this glaring going on is being a very irresponsible human for humanity sake.

I am not into bigotry but my views are opened to debates and discussions. Obviously it is only natural that one should first defend one’s own hypothesis with the possibility that one hypothesis is wrong if there are justified evidence.
So far I have not try to stop nor resort to violent intellectual means to stop any one from criticizing my views.

There is no bigotry from me, any one is welcome to argue my views.
But there is one good primal reason why you came in [subliminally driven] with a stab and accusation of bigotry on me. You wanna know and discuss why?? objectively, not blatant accusations. You are into ‘Know Thyself.’ ??

That is very logical, time wise the elders will have more experiences than the younger groups. But that cannot be a rule because there are so many contexts to take into account over time and circumstances.

It is more true in the olden days in tribal villages and towns without good communications media and internet. Those days, knowledge were embedded in the brain of the elders but in the modern times, experiences of the elders are recorded in all sort of media available in Amazon [e.g.] Wikipedia, Youtube, Facebook. People are too eager to share whatever new knowledge they have as soon as possible.

I don’t see anything worthwhile from what you wrote so far, else I would not mind paying to learn from you.

Yes, there will always be some gap between the elders and the younger [along the same subject] but it is very narrow in the present.
Yes, “Times they are a changin!” :laughing:

Peace to you on your pilgrimage of life.

Wisdom can’t be taught … nor learned in a book … nor on Facebook Twitter et al.

Wisdom is something people … and not all people … internalize by tripping over the potholes they encounter as they journey through life.

I agree that at the moment you can’t ‘see’ … I encourage you to be patient.

A sample of Chief Seattle’s wisdom … 1855

His statement is not prophetic … simply a well articulated extrapolation of what he ‘saw’ in his lifetime.

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You are changing the subject from knowledge via experience to wisdom.
Wisdom like intelligence cannot be passed on nor taught directly but knowledge about how to develop wisdom can be taught. That was not the topic.

We were discussing knowledge via experiences that is inter-communicable and exchangeable.
Experiences and knowledge of the elders that can be communicated can inspire thus enhancing the wisdom of others through their own practices.

Peace to you.

I think that you are giving Islam too much credit. Religious cruelty begins way before in recorded history in the Old Testament. Are the jews, then, prone to evil? The Spanish Empire wiped out the native empires in central and south America. They also thought of other human beings as cattle, with the blessing I might add of the religious crown in Madrid. It gets better, around this time human beings are tortured and burned for heresy and anything that may contradict scripture-- not in the Koran, but in the Bible. Shouldn’t we conclude that the Spanish, the Italians and the English are all evil prone and that the Bible if at least, if not more, dangerous than the Koran?

But no worries. Communism had no Koran, no Bible, only the writings of men like Marx and Engels. “Genocide” never lost its utility. The lesson here is that the violence found in islamicists is not caused by the Koran, otherwise NYC would be a crater. American Muslims are all well versed in the Koran, so why hasn’t this caused more violencein cities like New York?
We have examples of violence in the name of some god as well as in the name of the State, the People. The cause of violence is not reducible to a book or a gene located around brown people. Rather violence is caused by a grand perspective, ideals, from which height human life loses its priviledge and high standing as a value in itself. In the name of a revealed God, or a clear Future, genocide becomes a moral immorality, a necessary evil for the greater good etc.

  1. DNA wise ALL [100%] humans has the potential to be evil [as defined] and violent.

  2. A certain percentile [best guess 20%] are unfortunately born with an activated evil tendency [of various degree] and has difficulty controlling these evil impulse.

  3. The above is the fundamental reason why there is so much evils [all types] and violence in the world since human first emerged with self-awareness.

  4. All [no exceptions] the above evils and violence must be addressed.

  5. To address all the evils and violence in the World effective, we must analyze them into manageable units and trace to their respective root causes. [ a feature of a good problem-solving techniques].

  6. From empirical evidences it is noted all the evils and violence in the the world can be classified into two main categories, i.e. secular and religious.

  7. So whatever secular evils [wars, communism, drugs, crimes, etc.] you highlighted above must be addressed and resolved.

  8. There is no denial there were terrible evil committed by people who identify themselves as religious. The Buddhist monk [by his dressing, etc.] who was anti-Muslim is obviously religious. There are many Jews, Christians, Muslims who commit evils and violence while identifying themselves as believers as a religion.

  9. From the above obvious relationship, i.e. believers and evil & violence, thus humanity has an onus to research whether there is a direct link between the religious texts inspiring their believers to commit evil and violence.

  10. I have done the relevant extensive research and noted the Quran has tons of evil laden elements that inspire SOME Muslims who were born with evil tendency [2 above] to commit terrible evils and violence in the belief it is their divine duty so that they can be assured of their place in Paradise.

  11. The Torah is full of evil and violent contents but these are not in a format that would inspire so many believers to commit evil like Islam. This is why we do not hear of Jews committing terrible evils like the Muslims. Christianity has some evil elements but it has an overriding pacifist maxim, ‘love your enemies’.

  12. I suggest you do an objective analysis of the 6,236 verses of the Quran in term of its various elements and note its evil elements of various degrees. The most obvious clue is the Quran [Ahadith is worst] has 3,200++ verses [55% :open_mouth: ] that reference non-believers as ‘them’ [us versus them] in a very negative and in contempt. Such dividing people into in-groups and out-group is the fundamental basis leading to genocide. There are tons of other evil laden elements in the Quran.
    Why is a religion [like Islam] SO busybody with the affairs of non-believers to that high a degree!!!
    In contrast Buddhist sutras hardly mentioned non-believer but focus mainly on the spiritual development of the individual or society.

  13. Why not all Muslims in NYC are committing evil?
    As I had mentioned appx. 20% are unfortunately born with an active evil tendency. Note if you read the various polls you will note a high percentage of Muslims support the various negative elements of Islam, e.g. killing of apostate, stoning people to death, etc.
    Whilst 20% of Muslims, i.e. 300 million has an active evil tendency [of various degrees] not all will commit evil acts.
    But the point is even if 1% commit evils as inspired by the Quran’s evil element, that is 15 million of them around the World. That is really scary considering it took only 18++ to do a 911 and lone wolf[s] as evident can create terrible evils, terror and violence.

  14. The above is theory but in reality it is well supported by glaring evidences of Muslims committing terrible evils [over the last 1,400 years to the present] as inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran. The more terrible evils has related political elements but the main driving force is the evil elements from the Quran.

  15. I have identified the fundamental root cause of one type [amongst others] of terrible evil and violence, i.e. Quran-based evils and violence. The obvious solution [theoretical] is to get rid of the evil elements in the Quran and Muslims will not be triggered by any Quranic elements to commit terrible evils. If Muslims commit evils, then it has nothing to do with Islam rather it is their own personal evil tendency.

  16. Thus Muslims themselves must understand the Quran factually and objective to admit the Quran itself with its tons of evil laden elements is a big part of the problem of evil and violence committed by SOME Muslims. Btw, we cannot blame the Muslims as who were unfortunately born with an active evil tendency as the main culprit. It is the ideology with its evil elements that is the main problem.

Omar, can you counter this;

Qualification:
Do not blame Muslims per-se for any terror, evils and violence. The are not the primary cause. Rather the root cause is the Islamic ideology as reflected in the Quran and Ahadith.

This information [The Mirror extracted from ISIS’s magazine] is critical because the reasons are primarily theological and religious differences justified from the Quran and not political [which is secondary]:
mirror.co.uk/news/world-news … ns-8533563

1. Because you are disbelievers
“We hate you, first and foremost, because you are disbelievers; you reject the oneness of Allah – whether you realize it or not – by making partners for Him in worship, you blaspheme against Him, claiming that He has a son, you fabricate lies against His prophets and messengers, and you indulge in all manner of devilish practices.”

2 . Because you are liberal
“We hate you because your secular, liberal societies permit the very things that Allah has prohibited while banning many of the things He has permitted, a matter that doesn’t concern you because you Christian disbelief and paganism 32 separate between religion and state, thereby granting supreme authority to your whims and desires via the legislators you vote into power.”

3. Because some of you are atheist
“In the case of the atheist fringe, we hate you and wage war against you because you disbelieve in the existence of your Lord and Creator.”

4. For your crimes against Islam
“We hate you for your crimes against Islam and wage war against you to punish you for your transgressions against our religion.”

5. For your crimes against Muslims
“We hate you for your crimes against the Muslims; your drones and fighter jets bomb, kill, and maim our people around the world, and your puppets in the usurped lands of the Muslims oppress, torture, and wage war against anyone who calls to the truth.”

6. For invading our lands
“We hate you for invading our lands and fight you to repel you and drive you out. As long as there is an inch of territory left for us to reclaim, jihad will continue to be a personal obligation on every single Muslim.”

The article concludes that while foreign policy is an issue, the main reason they are hell bent on destruction is because they don’t like the West very much.

It reads:
"What’s important to understand here is that although some might argue that your foreign policies are the extent of what drives our hatred, this particular reason for hating you is secondary, hence the reason we addressed it at the end of the above list.

“The fact is, even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to hate you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam.”

As one who is VERY familiar with the Quran I can confirm the above is as per what is reflected in the verses of the Quran. The ethos of hate and contempt is fanned by the verses of the Quran.

Most Muslims will insist the followers of ISIS and other extremists interpreted the Quran wrongly. This is misconception. The followers [as Muslims] of ISIS are terrified of Allah [all powerful] and Hell, and there is no way they will twist the words of Allah for any personal benefit.

The majority of the points above are literally represented in the Quran while some may be dualistic, i.e. ambiguous and either way is true. Note the Duck-Rabbit dualistic truth example.

Another critical point is no one on Earth can judge which Muslim is interpreting the text correctly, especially the marginal ones till they meet up with Allah on Judgment Day.
Therefore as long as the Quran and Muslims exist there will always be evil and violence committed by SOME [not all] Muslims who are unfortunately born with an active evil tendency and zealously doing what is necessary as their divine duty to please Allah.

Hello Prismatic

Well, first of all why should we take the ISIS, or other terrorist groups interpretations of the Koran as authoritative? I believe these are rationalizations for a need for violent means to achieve political ends, no different than when Moses interpreted God for his people in order to justify genocide. The human filter (editor) is always in effect, so “revelation”, and interpretations of those revelations, always say more about the interpreter than about the source document.
I do not blame muslims. I believe you did. I also don’t blame books. I can receive today a letter from my Church’s pastor saying: “God has instructed us to kill innocent women and children and wipe them out of His Holy Lands”-- doesn’t mean I would believe him about his own interpretation about with whom he was having a conversation. But of course, I am a middle class American. How would that run by me between the rubble of Iraq? The point is that the interpretation is determined by the life-circumstance of the interpreter.

According to ISIS. Saying that the political reasons are secondary is not surprising. They are talking about Jihad which is a religious call, not a political one, and so they have no choice but to downplay the primary role of the political factors, even by self delusion.

I only have your word on your familiarity with the Koran. While the Koran, in my reading, is derivative from the other two monotheistic religions that influenced Mohammed, therefore, reflecting all the vices of the other two, there are also passages that have led to tolerance. Ayah 256 is one example. In the 14th century, in a period of strength, Ibn Kathir gave this interpretation:
“(There is no compulsion in religion), meaning, ‘Do not force anyone to become Muslim, for Islam is plain and clear, and its proofs and evidence are plain and clear. Therefore, there is no need to force anyone to embrace Islam. Rather, whoever Allah directs to Islam, opens his heart for it and enlightens his mind, will embrace Islam with certainty. Whoever Allah blinds his heart and seals his hearing and sight, then he will not benefit from being forced to embrace Islam.’
It was reported that the Ansar were the reason behind revealing this Ayah, although its indication is general in meaning.“
History has shown us this interpretation in practice in cities like Granada around that same time. I am not saying that there are no troubling passages in the Koran, just as there are in the Torah and in the rest of the Bible, but there has to be a will present, a desire that allows for the most barbaric interpretation of said passages while ignoring all else, including the very nature of that the purport of worship.

You think it is a misconception, let’s be clear. Between you and the others there is no priviledge to Truth, no monopoly. Being terrified means nothing as far as granting an interpretation veracity. It explains an interpretation, but does not make that interpretation THE interpretation. An interpretation out of fear is taken in order to assuage that fear, thus, for their personal benefit.

True. They don’t have a Pope.

I disagree with your interpretation. Pleasing Allah does not equate to evil and violence. Mohammed did not convert all of his allies. Certain Bedouins were simply taxed differently after they acknowledged the primacy of Islam. This is also what we find in Granada, where Muslims, Christians, and Jews lived together even if treated as different by the government. If such moment was repeated, (and I hope not), would evil and violence remain the topics we discuss or simply the unfairness of their tax code?