Primordial template of consciousness - Essay 1

Encode_Decode … seems I have offended you … I apologize.

You seem so sincere and earnest in your search for answers … and you have obviously made a huge investment in attempting to secure a formidable reservoir of ‘knowledge’.

Suppose the difference between us is I prefer to reach for the Big Kahuna so to speak … what you call “totality”.

Impossible?

Perhaps … than again … the search for wisdom should be the enjoyable part … reaching the destination may be like winning a gold medal in the Olympics … what does one do for an encore?

I like Manni’s new signature line:

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Interesting read. …no need to be apologetic.

Consciousness is probably just alpha/beta waves, for me it ‘represents’ the soul [as does the entire form] which is complete and therefore not growing [even where consciousness is]. From birth on-wards the soul settles into its inhabited form and develops respectively ~ as you and your life does. The longer you live the closer you get to the souls full potential in earthly form, almost as if you grow into yourself so to say.

That’s a big topic in and of itself. My personal experience is of a detachment which becomes increasingly attached to the living form the soul inherits. I envision something akin to a pool of being ~ a space before becoming shaped, and indeed it will be possible to build a human and [other intelligence’s] in the future, building up to a conscious being some-when during the build process.

Wouldn’t that be the “philosophical stage”? Seeking the nature of reality is not what wisdom is about. Wisdom is about discovering what is best to do or believe … often stemming from the philosophical stage of discovering Truth. Sadly, what is best to believe is often discovered to not be what is Truth … too late. Hence the incentive to create a distinction between the morose, wise fathers conscious of the real situation and the merry, blind faithfuls conscious of only a plausible situation (e.g. "Do not eat of the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge [“consciousness of”] Good and Evil", but rather, “Pray that it be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.”).

Consciousness ≡ the process of remote recognition.

Patterns are distinguished by virtue of relevant contrasts of affectance upon senses. Through inheritance many fundamental affectance contrasts are preprogrammed as relevant (e.g. pain and comfort, light and dark, hot and cold, smooth and rough,… yins and yangs…). When a pattern triggers recognition of relevancy, “consciousness of” the pattern is formed. In homo-sapiens, this begins in early fetal development for internal senses, “inner consciousness” and “subconsciousness”. External consciousness doesn’t occur until external senses are triggered, even though many affectance contrasts are already prewired and prepared to alert response (e.g. sounds and parental face).

Ditto … wisdom :sunglasses:

Nonsense . . . You have not offended me at all - in that case I am sorry if I gave you that impression.

Smile pilgrim-seeker_tom - I respect your views. I actually appreciate where you were coming from - it is just that I was presenting a bubble of thought. I was pointing out a few more things to do with my knowledge of yin yang just so that you knew that I do not necessarily follow a dualistic notion of it.

Just to reiterate: I am happy to continue the conversation whichever way it goes and appreciate your questioning of my western psyche.

Peace

:smiley:

I feel much better now.

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Perhaps we both read each others posts too superficially.

I was not questioning your western psyche … I was expressing my views of THE western psyche … of which I am a life long member. :laughing:

Encode_decode … some comments that may shed some light on our conflicting views of Chinese philosophy/phenomenology.

For most of the past 11 years I’ve had the privilege of living among the Chinese people … providing me with a “bird’s eye” … bird as in sparrow … view of their current culture and a peek at the Chinese Psyche … which stretches back many thousands of years.
My life among the Chinese people has largely been associated with the “peasantry” with whom I have a strong affinity … perhaps due to my own rather peasant status as a Canadian. I’ve found that the English speaking Chinese people … almost always the well educated … often with a Western University education … reflect a muddled view of the Chinese Psyche … no doubt the result of their western education and privileged lifestyle.
Furthermore when I attempt dialogue concerning the Chinese Psyche with western people … particularly well educated western people … these people have an “eagle’s eye” view of the Chinese Psyche. I write “eagle” for effect … eagle as in far removed from the object being viewed … not as in the eagle’s superior vision capabilities. The result being fruitless dialogue.

Pilgrim-seeker_tom … Well you were 100% correct about me presenting the dualistic view of the yin yang in my essay. I also took away the oneness in my article by separating the sentences and adding the term absolute. I am still not too sure our views are conflicting - to me it is more that I have not presented my views fully.

I find our dialogue fruitful and most satisfactory. I think given enough time we will come to an understanding. I find it is hard to get the full message across on a forum the first time around.

I wrote the words as I thought of them and the only corrections I made were spelling mistakes - so the essay is nowhere close to perfect - and because I am a westerner - writing as I think is going to come out as western psyche in a lot of cases.

As well as the psyche - I think it is important to question our ego’s. I might be saying the same thing twice here, but as you know English contains a lot of ambiguity.

The oneness of existence kind of relies on dualistic thinking to analyze. Your past eleven years experience sounds fascinating - it kind of makes me jealous - I am kidding about the jealous part - I am very happy for you; that you have been able to have that experience. I understand what you are saying in your post.

A few comments on “Psyche” as in Western Psyche and Chinese Psyche.

First from a Chinese perspective … In their physical realm the 1-10% have overwhelming advantages/privileges vis a vis the peasantry. Are these advantages/privileges retained in the psychic realm?

I think not … IMHO one mind is one unit in the psychic realm … making the Chinese Psyche highly dominated by the peasantry of the physical realm.

In the Western Psyche … for some time now … the middle class and upper class have had a strong influence in the collective western psychic realm … perhaps explaining the Western sense of superiority … as well as explaining why such a large component of the Chinese population consider themselves as inferior to western people.

Some thoughts on ego … IMHO the ego is connected to the psychic realm … if true … the ego would always echo the overarching sentiment of the respective collective psyche.

I like that. I think it has a lot of merit - in my other studies I consider the race as a whole - a collective consciousness so to speak. I could nearly state “the ego would always echo the overarching sentiment of the respective collective psyche” is a fact.

I am glad you found it interesting Amorphos. I am yet to respond to two of your posts; “Konflikt - as a root philosophy.”(I really like this one) and “You can’t cause cause without first having cause = illogical”(I am reading this one again now); which I plan to leave a comment on each. Your post “Everything is inherited, except that which inherits it?” I found most stimulating.

You are probably right; deep stuff. I have a zero/infinity annihilation theory I use to recycle universes which is mathematical by nature but philosophically relevant to growing into your self but it does imply reincarnation - not sure what to make of it. You have left me more to consider here. Thanks.

What comes before the pattern stage is indeed a big topic.

I would be fascinated to hear more about this.

I think your Konflikt - as a root philosophy has a lot of depth as a part of the following:

A = Right - conflicts with wrong
B = Wrong - conflicts with right
C = Universe - connects to the universe

ABC is a triangle. C is the Connection(interface) to the universe and the interior is the consciousness.

If you catch my drift. I mention this to illustrate some mathematical structure your posts inspire in me.

I am interested in this pool of being that you present in the above quote as this zero/infinity theory I have seems to fit what you say about shaping. The theory encompasses a tetrahedral quasi-crystalline structure that sits inside hyperspace(all matrices in code) via something akin to a space filling curve that emanates from the A and B in the above triangle. As the crystal fills the space it resembles the likes of a 3D fractal but more a quasi-fractal with no periodic repetition. So A and B are free to grow unevenly.This unevenness is restricted by the pushing/pulling forces that allow the structure to resemble what I can only class as an alien brain. Mind you that is just one way I can think of going about it. Morphing is allowed from an embedment in the mathematics. Notice here the brain fills the conscious space rather than the other way around. Forgive any logical inconsistencies in the description. Basically this model fills the allotted space and that is classed as zero/infinity.

I am not going to go to crazy here for an obvious reason; suffice to say that what you have to say is fascinating, and inspires much thought.

@ James S Saint - You have quite a way of shedding light on the ambiguity I express.

I can see what you are saying - I think I may have something the wrong way around there - I will think about that and get back to you - I am still thinking about what you have tripped me up on Hume in another post.

The patterns part makes a lot more sense to me (and same with the inheritance) compared with what to do with prewired stuff. In saying that I have put a lot of thought into the prewired stuff. I will consider the order that you are suggesting as I am sure you have a valid point there.

For me THE Collective Consciousness is a family of psychic communities … where it is impossible to delineate the boundaries … certainly not nation states … religions, economic models, political models, wealth distribution models and so on all affect which community one belongs to. Complicating this further is the strong likelihood of significant migration among the communities.

Seems logical that what we observe in the physical realm are the manifestations of events in the psychic realm … might explain a lot of the conflict we see … at the individual level (inner conflict) … family … extended family … community … region … nation and eventually in the geopolitical arena.

Encode_decode
I have read your replies btw, sometimes I just leave things for a while to let it go into my mind, or I have no current answer, - is why I don’t always answer. :slight_smile:

The way I see it is that there will be a medium point between you having the original soul-form in the otherworld, then having an earthly form. One thing is ‘destroyed’ so that the other thing can be made, …naturally you cannot destroy the soul ergo it simply changes. Consider the ‘cosmic blender’ theory I have posted many times about; the whole of existence is ultimately oneness and everything derives from that. ‘The pool’ is that oneness - the default state of all things, metaphysically it is statelessness. Because the soul and earthly body are incongruous, the soul has to become nothing prior to becoming something. So in short state becomes stateless and then state once more.

I think zero-infinity sounds like the above oneness, an emptiness which contains everything [because you have put everything into the cosmic blender].

Or there is no right and wrong, just different positions - at least initially. I suppose that if you take virtually anything to extremes it will be observed as right or wrong, but initially there’s just different pushing or force. For example, if you did good like cured all disease and took away death [as genetics can be made immortal as with some lobsters and other species which don’t age], you’d then have unlimited numbers crammed onto an already overcrowded planet. So lets take that to a further extreme; eventually you have enough humans to cover the planet, then you keep adding [giving birth] and you get another layer all stood upon the previous layers heads. Can we go further, of course, you just keep building [giving birth to] layers of people until there are so many layers the top ones can’t breath as they are beyond the atmosphere, and those below get crushed.
All that by just doing good!

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Amorphos

I understand - for me it is generally above my head - lol - like your “Konflikt - as a root philosophy.” - above my head - I know what you are talking about from a superficial level but it usually takes a few readings for me to fully absorb it at the deeper level.

I must say I really like the depth of your “pool of being”.

Regarding my crazy triangle I was tempted to do this:

A = Conflict
B = Conflict
C = Totality

I could totally imagine a “human sphere” when you explained people on top of each others heads - I like to be able to visualize stuff and you paint a clear picture with your words.

Indeed!

:smiley:

I will write a more substantial response - right now I am tired from digging trenches.

Hey pilgrim-seeker_tom - apologies for the short response - I am tired.

:smiley:

I agree:

totally.

encode_decode

Who was it who said that? That really isn’t true.

There are some or perhaps many, like myself, for whom mountains and water, any kind of waters, are just not simply mountains and water. They not only call to you but they reveal a part of their aspect which also lies deep within you.

Have you ever sat in front of a mountain or a tree (for instance) for hours and gazed up at it speechless and experienced that I and Thou connection which eventually flowed into simple being?

Mountains, oceans, rivers, trees, stars, snowfalls, rain storms, thunder, lol ad continuum ~~ does one need to become “enlightened” or a Buddhist in order to sense the living beauty and the awesome spirit which resides in these things? They all are capable of personifying us in some ways if we listen to them and really “see” them.

PSHAW!!! :mrgreen:

:banana-dance:

It is not meant to be a statement of fact. Just illustrative to the student of Zen.

Not the mountain or a tree per se but instead the majesty of totality.

No, one does not.

Arcturus Descending

I am curious whether you could explain this a bit more to me.

:slight_smile:

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:

You saw where he took offense? Point to it. I saw nothing at all in what he wrote that showed him taking offense. It was a cordial and harmonious response.

Why do we sometimes see offense where there isn’t any?

James

I have put further thought into this and decided it was time to respond . . .

I do see where you are coming from . . . so yes as you say the philosophical stage . . . and now I am getting back to you . . .

As I said previously: I can see what you are saying - I think I may have something the wrong way around there - I will think about that and get back to you.

You must be speaking about good judgement - also bordering on ethos and ethics - I am not necessarily disagreeing with you - I just want some clarification. It seems there is some ambiguity regarding wisdom. I have listed three definitions from google below:

Having listed stupidity as wisdom’s opposite.

Pedantic maybe, but: Are you saying that good judgement and what is best to do or believe are the same thing? I believe this is morality.

I am sure you will point out some error - I don’t mind.

I would like to further point out something from Bounded Rationality:

I really like this - it still presents a small amount of ambiguity from the above from what I can tell . . . please, please, please - shed some light on this for me . . .

So here is my order and your criticism is quite welcome:

Pattern Stage > Second Pattern Stage > philosophical stage > Reasoning ∨ Truth > Wisdom ∨ Belief ∨ Good Judgment ∨ Morality

Here we are pointing at morals again, are we not?

I like it - I will have a further question and/or more discussion about this . . .

I will have a further question on this too - however - its seems fairly sound to me . . .

It seems to me that there are several ways of saying the same thing.

:sunglasses: