Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

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Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Postby Amorphos » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:38 am

Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

What else is there to say? In a causal universe people become criminals and then often get worse, yet if the same individual were given an alternate route, they wouldn’t have gone down that road in the first place.

All ‘evil’ and all crime, are wrong roads and not wrong people.
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Re: Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Postby WendyDarling » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:50 am

Wow, that sentiment is brimming with hope that evil is not a disease that one must always be vigilant against. While in a material body, people try to experience as much as possible often unfortunately, some legal activities should be criminal while some criminal activities should be legal. The reality of the Earth experience is you make your own route, you. Life is one big obstacle course that only you can navigate for you. Why is it always someone else's fault for your choices?
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Re: Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:23 am

WendyDarling wrote:Wow, that sentiment is brimming with hope that evil is not a disease that one must always be vigilant against. While in a material body, people try to experience as much as possible often unfortunately, some legal activities should be criminal while some criminal activities should be legal. The reality of the Earth experience is you make your own route, you. Life is one big obstacle course that only you can navigate for you. Why is it always someone else's fault for your choices?


Wendy ... I find your response a bit harsh ... did someone shit in your corn flakes this morning? :D

Surely all serious thinkers accept that scapegoats are prevalent in our society ... yet ... IMO Amorphos ... if I understand him correctly ... makes a valid point. The idiom ... "monkey see ... monkey do" pretty much sums up human behavior.

Perhaps Amorphos is suggesting that in a "better" society ... still less than perfect ... where almost all people ... in almost all places ... consistently lived according to agape love ... selfless love ... there would be a hell of a lot less crime ... maybe.
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Re: Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Postby WendyDarling » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:20 am

Reality can be harsh, yes? Is it God's fault for Man's lack of better judgement?

For selfless love one must first understand how to love oneself, yes? Doesn't one have to have a personal understanding of love, a personal conviction to sacrifice, and a life philosophy culminating in self-awareness which leads to self-love which can eventually lead to selfless love? I believe it is easier to receive love than to give, but some folks are uncomfortable with love all the way around for it makes them feel vulnerable.
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Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:32 pm

Kill 1 you are a murderer. Kill 100 you are a lunatic. Kill 1000 you are a soldier and kill one million they call you Yahweh.
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Re: Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Postby phyllo » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:45 pm

Take away the roads, then people cannot go there
Take away which roads? Take them away how?
All ‘evil’ and all crime, are wrong roads and not wrong people.
It's nice to know that the people stealing your stuff, beating you senseless and raping your kids ... are really 'good' people.
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Re: Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Postby Some Guy in History » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:04 pm

phyllo wrote:
Take away the roads, then people cannot go there
Take away which roads? Take them away how?
All ‘evil’ and all crime, are wrong roads and not wrong people.
It's nice to know that the people stealing your stuff, beating you senseless and raping your kids ... are really 'good' people.



If you take away roads, people just make new ones. It's as simple as walking through bushes until a path naturally occurs. If it's the wrong thing at the wrong time, doesn't that make it at least partially right? And, if Murphy's law is accurate and whatever can go wrong will go wrong, by process of elimination, therefore, whatever can go right will go right.
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Re: Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Postby Amorphos » Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:07 pm

Wow, that sentiment is brimming with hope that evil is not a disease that one must always be vigilant against.


No, I think people should be vigilant against evil. None of Gods children are evil, they just get taken down evil roads, so be vigilant against that.

The reality of the Earth experience is you make your own route, you.


Ok so give me a percentage? [that sounds like 100% statement to me?] What approximate percentage of your route is manifest by ‘you’, and what of it is inherited, causal? I’d say 100% is inherited and causal, you sound like you are saying 100% of your path is manifest by you and not that?

Why is it always someone else's fault for your choices?


Because I don’t rule the world, and my actions and reactions are wholly devised by my genes/society [they are 100% inherited by either means, no?]. The way we navigate/act/behave is pre-set, not to mention that you don’t know how you are going to act to some situations, not until you are in them - and then it is usually too late.

Perhaps Amorphos is suggesting that in a "better" society ... still less than perfect ... where almost all people ... in almost all places ... consistently lived according to agape love ... selfless love ... there would be a hell of a lot less crime ... maybe.


I am saying that a better society would be made by removing potential and the roads people are taken down. I think crime is entirely forced.
Not to mention there is a mathematical element; the LAPD use the mathematical formula for earthquake aftershocks to predict crime hotspots [which change but in a 70% predictable manner]. so now we need to ask; what and where are the earthquakes causing the aftershocks. Take a look at any area in the world, where people have a look upon their faces as if to say they have been through an earthquake, and there is our answer!

It's nice to know that the people stealing your stuff, beating you senseless and raping your kids ... are really 'good' people.


They would be if they had a different causality, no?
You take ordinary people e.g. in the Balkans conflict [or any really], and the situations turns minor conscious or subconscious dislike/distrust towards your former Neighbours, into overt hatred. Normal people get turned into psychopathic child killers.
Another example would be where the war in Syria was exasperated by the allies ‘accidentally’ letting masses of munitions get to ISIS militants, literally fuelling and prolonging the war. If our governments didn’t try to mess around with situations, opaquely to the ends whereby our ‘bad ones’ are attracted to join their brothers, ergo getting rid of them from our countries so we can just bomb the hell out of them. Then that evil situation would not have been as evil would it.

Such is an instance whereby we can change the road and manifest less evil simply by doing that. Another example would be where some police use entrapment techniques such that ‘criminals’ I.e. people largely of ethnic minorities, are given the opportunity to e.g. rob money from a placed car.

If you give people opportunity, and if you make them hate you, you are the ones building the roads.

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Last edited by Amorphos on Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Postby Some Guy in History » Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:10 pm

I love how most of the conversations held here on these forums are just piles of crap. The real conversations, people are too afraid to get involved in for whatever reason. Buncha pussies.

That was an ad hom attack, btw. No matter how truthful, they'll claim it as ad hom. Go ahead, mods; tear me a new one again.

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Re: Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:07 am

Amor,

If everything is causal, then it is predetermined? No one has choices? That's BS!

What approximate percentage of your route is manifest by ‘you’, and what of it is inherited, causal? I’d say 100% is inherited and causal, you sound like you are saying 100% of your path is manifest by you and not that?


I don't know how a soul gets placed in a body like whether or not the soul chooses their placement or if its assigned by God. Like I said, life is an obstacle course and YOU make the choices in its navigation.

I am saying that a better society would be made by removing potential and the roads people are taken down.


I thought you are against outside interventions, laws, and societal meddling in general. If we remove (potential) their arms and legs, the crime rate would be virtually zero and a better society would be formed.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Postby surreptitious57 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:52 am

WendyDarling wrote:
Why is it always someone elses fault for your choices

My choices are my responsibility and mine alone and no one is taking that freedom away from me ever. Others may deny their
responsibilities if they want but I am rigidly sticking to mine. I am too old to make excuses. I just deal in facts and regret now
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Re: Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Postby Amorphos » Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:44 pm

If everything is causal, then it is predetermined? No one has choices? That's BS!


It means that the choices are informed causally, you will choose what your brain determines and that includes info derived from the genes of the ancestors. I do think you can still choose, especially as there are so many options presented to the minds eye. In fact I think that is why consciousness exists, something has to make head nor tail of all that.
For me it is more the case that people stumble, the brain has evolved to survive and all that entails. When confronted with e.g. violent situations you don’t know how to deal with, we are ‘more likely’ to go by our instincts. If a lion charges at you, your instincts will override your consciousness until you get at a safe distance, hence people can make mistakes respectively.

Souls don’t get placed in bodies via divinity, nature gets what it needs where it needs. The soul is a natural entity and fluidic and infantile until learned.

I thought you are against outside interventions, laws, and societal meddling in general.


Yes, but understanding and aversion is ok imho.

My choices are my responsibility and mine alone and no one is taking that freedom away from me ever.


yes and no; In experiments it has been shown that given the choice to push a yellow or red button, that choice is made prior to conscious involvement. If you have time to think about how to react, then yes it is your choice, if you don’t get time and have to react instantly, you will most likely go by instinctive reactions.

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Re: Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:13 am

If everything is causal, then it is predetermined? No one has choices? That's BS!


Is it possible that the overarching choice is made prior to conception?

James Hillman argues for this possibility in his book "The Soul's Code ... In Search of Calling and Character"
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:18 am

pilgrim wrote
James Hillman argues for this possibility in his book "The Soul's Code ... In Search of Calling and Character"


May look into that further, but for us, souls, we choose...when and where exactly...is up for debate.
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I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:14 am

WendyDarling wrote:pilgrim wrote
James Hillman argues for this possibility in his book "The Soul's Code ... In Search of Calling and Character"


May look into that further,


Wendy ... I'm not pulling for Hillman ... yet ... it is a decent read ... more philosophical than spiritual if I remember correctly.

WendyDarling wrote:but for us, souls, we choose...when and where exactly...is up for debate.


nicely encaptioned ... the debate reaches back into time immemorial and will stretch into the future (insert here)
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Re: Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:34 pm

Amorphos

Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

What else is there to say? In a causal universe people become criminals and then often get worse, yet if the same individual were given an alternate route, they wouldn’t have gone down that road in the first place.


For instance, what do you mean by "an alternate route"? A different kind of upbringing?
Anyway, you can't really say that they "wouldn't" - you can't know this for sure.



ll ‘evil’ and all crime, are wrong roads and not wrong people.


What do you mean by this? That people who commit crimes are not necessarily "bad" people?
That would necessarily depend on the individual and the circumstances, don't you think? unless you mean something different, amorphos.

There are the sociopaths and the psycopaths and the plain good people. Good people can become evil. The banality of evil...
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

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Re: Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Postby Amorphos » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:39 pm

Arc

For instance, what do you mean by "an alternate route"? A different kind of upbringing?
Anyway, you can't really say that they "wouldn't" - you can't know this for sure.


We can know that path x,y,z, is different to path a,b,c, then that, given causality, if person k chooses route a [~b,c,], they will act differently to if they took route z [~x,y,].
Secondly we can know that each of us has tendencies which given the respective path will become e.g. addictions.

Thirdly we know that some things e.g. addiction, can be bad in extremes.

Each requires roads which one goes down.

What do you mean by this? That people who commit crimes are not necessarily "bad" people?


If you could un-stitch their lives, one could observe the points at which they went down those paths, met those people etc etc. If they didn’t meet that gang or do that thing, then they would not do the things which followed on from that and hence would not become evil.

Apart from genetics everything are paths and learned things. ....genes are made from historical paths trod.
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Re: Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:12 pm

Amorphos

Take away the roads, then people cannot go there


We're speaking of individuals here, Amorphos. We are not like sardines in a sardine can...all the same...that is, if all sardines in the same can, are actually the same. lol

Particular kinds of individuals WILL find a different road to go down or they will construct their own.
You may be able to take away a particular road but remember that gthat road may just be in the person. He will seek it elsewhere.

What else is there to say? In a causal universe people become criminals and then often get worse, yet if the same individual were given an alternate route, they wouldn’t have gone down that road in the first place.


This may be possible but that would depend on certain things. Despite those things, they might still make the choice to go down that wrong road.
Things aren't as simple as you're portraying them.

All ‘evil’ and all crime, are wrong roads and not wrong people.


But people who have "gone wrong" and made bad choices. People do not get a free pass out of jail because they are "not wrong people".
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

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Re: Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Postby surreptitious57 » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:47 pm

There is no such thing as a good person or bad person as everyone is a moral agent capable of both good and bad where they have
free will. Even those who are predominately good or bad are not good or bad per se. Even if that is how they are usually regarded
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Re: Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:30 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:There is no such thing as a good person or bad person as everyone is a moral agent capable of both good and bad where they have
free will. Even those who are predominately good or bad are not good or bad per se. Even if that is how they are usually regarded


What about those who are NOT capable of good?

I realize that any or most humans can be capable of both good or bad especially if they don't realize that but do you really believe that there are not those who are only capable of bad?

One who has raped or murdered ten children? Don't you kind of think that his capacity for good is nil? In what way is this person capable of good - where it can matter?

Is having the capacity to make a judgment call a wicked immoral thing?
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Postby Amorphos » Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:23 pm

surreptitious57 - I agree.

Arcturus
You may be able to take away a particular road but remember that that road may just be in the person. He will seek it elsewhere.


You seem to be taking a negative view of what I mean? I am talking about people being taken down tracks like causal trains, when that occurs they don’t really have choice. Like people born into poverty or a lower financial end of society, sometimes turn to crime for various reasons. Ergo my solution is to observe the reasons and the more you can get rid of the less potential for crime. Its simply looking at things in terms of an environment [e.g. of crime].

I know it is not simple, it means we need to improve the mobility levels of people all over the planet. Possibly the hardest task man can undertake. You know, one of those things like saving the planet.

But people who have "gone wrong" and made bad choices. People do not get a free pass out of jail because they are "not wrong people".


For sure, but it is a philosophical consideration. In my mind there are line to cross, and degrees of guilt rather than it being black and white. Its like terrorism will be eventually defeated by working on it at the societal level. Nations increasingly want better security, but that wont happen unless wealth is spread more evenly.
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Re: Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Postby surreptitious57 » Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:44 pm

Every human being who has free will and is of sound mind is capable of good and bad
No one is entirely good or entirely bad as this would invalidate the notion of free will
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Re: Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Postby surreptitious57 » Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:03 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
One who has raped or murdered ten children? Dont you kind of think that his capacity for good is nil? In what way is this person capable of good

One bad act does not automatically invalidate all good acts. As long as someone has free will and is of sound mind they will do both good and bad. And so the severity of one bad act has zero bearing on this. So called bad people are capable of doing good and vice versa. It is not that so called bad people only do bad
and so called good people only do good. It is the actions that are good or bad rather than the people doing them. People themselves are neither good nor bad
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Re: Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:19 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:
One who has raped or murdered ten children? Dont you kind of think that his capacity for good is nil? In what way is this person capable of good

One bad act does not automatically invalidate all good acts. As long as someone has free will and is of sound mind they will do both good and bad. And so the severity of one bad act has zero bearing on this. So called bad people are capable of doing good and vice versa. It is not that so called bad people only do bad
and so called good people only do good. It is the actions that are good or bad rather than the people doing them. People themselves are neither good nor bad


So, the man who has raped and murdered ten children is neither good nor bad? Is that what you are saying here?

Maybe what I need is for you to tell me exactly what you mean by "People themselves are neither good nor bad"

What is the middle of the man who has raped and murdered 10 children.

What are you saying - that he is simply confused and that he actually has so much goodness within him? What is he saving it for?

Is it important to be so moral that we refuse to make judgment calls about heinous actions?
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Postby surreptitious57 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:34 am

All arguments about good and bad whether they relate to actions or to the people that perpetrate them are basically fallacious because morality is not objective Therefore there is no objective means by which good and bad can be measured. Now I did say only actions are good or bad but this is a subjective interpretation
not an objective one. Morality can only ever be subjective or inter subjective. And means no moral action by definition can ever be defined as either objectively
true or objectively false other than from a subjective perspective
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