The reality of mind in the future.

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The reality of mind in the future.

Postby encode_decode » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:22 pm

The reality of mind in the future.

This thread is about the new knowledge of the mind. If science does find a complete answer to the mind-body problem, what then?

For a long time we as humans have been trying to work out what the mind is and some of us(not necessarily me) have been trying to work out how it connects to the physical brain. How is it that our mental processes cause neurons to fire. There is now emerging evidence that glials also play a part in intelligence.

Mental processes such as thinking, rationalizing, desire, imagination, volition and emotion are to name but a few of the functions that our mind/brain performs daily and hint at the complexity of this so called mind-body problem.

Even if science does find the answers - will the proof be enough?

Plato said something like, our intelligence could not be defined in terms of our body. I guess it is possible to use the information that is the translation between the mind and the body to help define it; but how would we know for sure? How would we know that what is encoded is sufficient to explain what the mind is?

I see a lot of troubling questions arising if science is to claim they have found the answers to what the mind is. Now don't get me wrong, I am not actually against science in general - especially good science. I noticed a shift in the paradigm of science around 2000 to 2005 - a subtle shift that was more sensed than anything else. I am skeptical that science is capable of answering all of life's questions.

I have always viewed science more of a toolkit than anything else and philosophy as the guardian(in my ideal world) of this toolkit. That is one way I could put it and I hope the sentiment is coming across well enough to be understood.

Given that we are capable of coming up with dualistic and monistic views of mind - something tells me, there is something "more than meets the eye" when it comes to the topic of mind.

I think I am rather dualistic when it comes to mind. I think therefore I am . . . I would of course be willing to cross to the other side so to speak if I had solid proof of what science would have to say.

Anyhow I will save the rest of my 'babbling' for the thread.

:)
- Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion. (2017) -

But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning, which is to say there is always meaning.(gib - 2017)
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Re: The reality of mind in the future.

Postby encode_decode » Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:52 am

I was just having a conversation with a friend based on a snippet from a post I made in another thread. The conversation is whether it is even ethical to model the brain inside a computer - currently computer cluster - and I say it is not. I say this for two reasons: 1. CPU cycles are wasted trying to emulate the brain before we even get to a mind. 2. Wasted CPU cycles lead to wasted electricity.

In our world the brain is the machine and the mind resides on that machine(mm). In the computer world the computer is the machine and the brain becomes the emulated machine and the mind resides on that machine. Wasteful!

The implications that scare me if science is to claim they have an answer and everyone chooses to believe it is: What if we miss something? If we miss something then what? Does anyone do themselves any favors when settling on one answer?

I think we should always stay awake to reality and not settle on a clustered persons(group of people) consensus.

Regrading neuroscience - we have found a toy to play with and I am not sure we really know what we are doing. I can see the benefit to neuroscience but I do not think it is well developed enough to start claiming answers to questions that lead to moral implications.

:D
- Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion. (2017) -

But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning, which is to say there is always meaning.(gib - 2017)
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Re: The reality of mind in the future.

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:01 am

Somewhat appealing posts ... yet ... your use of sophisticated terminology confuses my "small town" mind. A few questions come to my mind:

1) Is your use of sophisticated terminology intended to keep uneducated people like me on the outside looking in?

2) Is your use of the word "mind" synonymous with the word "consciousness"?

3) Is your exclusion of "spirituality" as a potential 'guardian' respectful of this being the philosophy forum ... or more than that?

4)AI has evolved so far from human effort ... do you foresee the day when AI will transcend human involvement?
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: The reality of mind in the future.

Postby encode_decode » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:23 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Somewhat appealing posts ... yet ... your use of sophisticated terminology confuses my "small town" mind. A few questions come to my mind:

1) Is your use of sophisticated terminology intended to keep uneducated people like me on the outside looking in?

2) Is your use of the word "mind" synonymous with the word "consciousness"?

3) Is your exclusion of "spirituality" as a potential 'guardian' respectful of this being the philosophy forum ... or more than that?

4)AI has evolved so far from human effort ... do you foresee the day when AI will transcend human involvement?


Hello pilgrim-seeker_tom,

:D

Thank you so much for responding.

1) I am so sorry if what I write comes across that way as that is most certainly not my intention. 2) Oh yes my apologies yet again - that is exactly what I mean mind as consciousness. 3) I am actually more than happy to discuss spirituality as it relates to guardian of consciousness. 4) I hope the day never comes when AI transcend humans in any way - I would like to see the human race take part in the responsibility that will become AI.

Again thanks for your response and I hope I have answered your questions acceptably however if I have not please let me know so that I can clear things up that I have no doubt are my fault.

:D
- Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion. (2017) -

But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning, which is to say there is always meaning.(gib - 2017)
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Re: The reality of mind in the future.

Postby surreptitious57 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:41 am

encode decode wrote:
I hope the day never comes when AI transcend humans in any way - I would like to see the human race take part in the responsibility that will become AI

AI would have to transcend humans in some way otherwise developing it would be superfluous. And at some point in the future it may become entirely
independent of humans so it will then be responsible for itself. Being machine intelligence might mean it can only process information logically so the
concept of responsibility may be hard to understand from its perspective
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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Re: The reality of mind in the future.

Postby encode_decode » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:52 am

For anyone else who is curious . . .

I am a spiritual person.

I am a deeply spiritual person.

I make no attempt to exclude enlightenment from my experience.

It is my belief that our consciousness comes back again and again forever.

I believe that the moral actions we take in life affect the outcome of our next life.

I believe in higher planes and multiple dimensions.

I believe that in some form or other everything at the very least contains the seed of truth and the opposing seed of untruth.

My token is the Taijitu also known as the Yin Yang - this is the only token that I have affinity with.

My meditation sessions include silencing the material world and entering the void. Other sessions include reaching out to nature and connecting with my spiritual element of wind. In my corporeal existence I have the element of fire.

My number is 7 - nothing is at it seems.

Why do I not talk about my spirituality? I really do not know - this is something that has been with me for thirty years.
- Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion. (2017) -

But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning, which is to say there is always meaning.(gib - 2017)
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Re: The reality of mind in the future.

Postby surreptitious57 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:34 am

I do not think that there is another existence beyond this one I think that death is eternal. I do not think it wise to interpret reality to fit in with my
philosophy but to accept reality for what it is and for that to be the basis of my philosophy instead. I do not believe in karma but I do accept though
the concept of personal responsibility for this is how I grow and develop as a human being. Acknowledging my mistakes and then learning from them
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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Re: The reality of mind in the future.

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:07 am

surreptitious57 wrote:AI would have to transcend humans in some way otherwise developing it would be superfluous. And at some point in the future it may become entirely independent of humans so it will then be responsible for itself.


Surreptitious ... the size of the community supporting the view you expressed is likely already very large and growing logarithmically by the hour.

It's not much of a stretch of human imagination to deduce from the fact AI won the chess match against the world's top chess player ... that AI is currently employed by advisers to world leaders ... at least some ... in the development and recommendation of strategic and tactical initiatives designed to harness and control the "blob" ... ergo: humanity

An educated "blob" is much more difficult to harness and control ... especially with the disintegrating influence of spirituality.

AI can likely already handle philosophy ... after the ground rules are set ... including morality and ethics.

What about spirituality? ... the notion ... though yet undefined ... of spirit.

Good luck!! ... countless people have tapped into the "energy" ... for lack of a better term ... of spirit ... shamans for example.

A cursory glance at how AI may "manage" spirit ... hypothetical of course:

Potential candidates:

Chemical
a) compulsory vaccinations
b) food chain ... via GMO technology
c) water supply ... all urban areas require water treatment ... ergo: chemicals in our drinking water
d) health world ... chemical concoctions that fill the shelves of drug stores ... the non-prescription category ... vitamins ... additives in foods.
e) self help programs that soften the negative impact of today's lifestyle choices.

Electrical ... as in neurons firing
a) radiation emissions from cell phones ... placed in close proximity to the brain ergo: stuck in your ear
b) radiation emissions from personal computers and televisions
c) radiation emissions from any device using current digital technology(s) ... cars, fridges and so on

Other
a) the implant conspiracy theory
b) insert here
c) insert here
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Re: The reality of mind in the future.

Postby encode_decode » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:57 pm

I read somewhere of a physicist who contemplates the idea of consciousness taking a non material form as in light. Consciousness harnessed by light brings up interesting thoughts regarding the particle-wave duality.

But I diverge . . .

I was reading an interesting article on Wikipedia called "Shadows of the Mind" which is about a book of the same name by Roger Penrose; according to Wikipedia Roger is a mathematical physicist and the book was published in 1994.

Wikipedia wrote:Penrose hypothesizes that:
    1. Human consciousness is non-algorithmic, and thus is not capable of being modelled by a conventional Turing machine-type of digital computer.
    2. Quantum mechanics plays an essential role in the understanding of human consciousness, specifically, he believes that microtubules within neurons support quantum superpositions.
    3. The objective collapse of the quantum wavefunction of the microtubules is critical for consciousness.
    4. The collapse in question is physical behaviour that is non-algorithmic and transcends the limits of computability.
    5. The human mind has abilities that no Turing machine could possess because of this mechanism of non-computable physics.
Read more . . .

I still think that Penrose's hypothesis holds some merit especially when you consider microtubules within neurons support quantum superpositions. Despite what I am saying in the previous sentence I did find an interesting video on YouTube with yet another perspective on the matter.

Watch video . . .

This video in the beginning goes on to say that our beliefs have a profound impact on our body chemistry. The video has many other interesting points that it make on neuroscience and quantum mechanics. The video is designed to be watchable by nearly anyone.

I propose that when settling on the question of the mind-body problem that we all proceed with caution and that we leave no stone unturned before forming a belief about what the mind actually is.

:-k
- Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion. (2017) -

But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning, which is to say there is always meaning.(gib - 2017)
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Re: The reality of mind in the future.

Postby WendyDarling » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:46 am

If the video is important enough to be heard by humans, it should be spoken by humans. I can't take an AI endeavor seriously. Sorry.
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Re: The reality of mind in the future.

Postby encode_decode » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:59 am

WendyDarling wrote:If the video is important enough to be heard by humans, it should be spoken by humans. I can't take an AI endeavor seriously. Sorry.

I understand.
- Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion. (2017) -

But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning, which is to say there is always meaning.(gib - 2017)
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Re: The reality of mind in the future.

Postby encode_decode » Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:37 pm

If artificial intelligence does become "smarter" than us then perhaps one of the tasks in the future for our own minds will be to make sure that AI do not destroy us. This sentiment I hear a lot and I have read an article that talks about an institute to prevent our eradication by AI.

Maybe the reality of mind in the future is as a driver(controller) to our thinking machines(intelligent devices). Where the human mind fits into the equation of a future with non-biological intelligence should be the kind of thought that the non-ignorant include in their array of thoughts involving the near and distance future. To not pay attention to our changing existence is to possibly set oneself up for failure and the fallout of depression, indifference and no sense of belonging.

We can already see the effects on the human mind of our current technologies - but can we see benefits through the seeming dark side of the human condition? People do not like change in an existence that relies on constant differences between the current state and previous states to even be defined as life - this is no longer making any sense to me; sometimes I feel rather alone with these thoughts.

Artificial Intelligence completely aside - what about the effects that other sciences have on us even if there are only partial truths involved? As all types of science moves forward as well as philosophy of different kinds rises into being there is a side effect to the mind of the individual and the collective that is not always apparent except in hindsight. It seems that it is this hindsight that many people get upset over.

Lastly for this post I want to mention the individual and her/his drive to maintain separation from each other despite the obvious similarities involved. Is it really that important for an individual to strive for something that he/she is born with? There is a duality of likeness and individual trait that we are all born with yet we often pretend to not be anything like each other(not speaking for the whole world here).

My own pondering of the reality of mind in the future for today . . .

:-k
- Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion. (2017) -

But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning, which is to say there is always meaning.(gib - 2017)
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Re: The reality of mind in the future.

Postby Meno_ » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:51 pm

Like everything else, without simplification - will fail to support distinctions , in this case between artificial and authentic. There wll be no use for such a tool-kit, at any rate.
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Re: The reality of mind in the future.

Postby Meno_ » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:55 pm

Or maybe someone may think of one, however, it may be exploitative/explorative.
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Re: The reality of mind in the future.

Postby Meno_ » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:08 pm

Visual aesthetics wil be overcome by auditory harmonics, it will be virtually impossible to recreate the formal elements underlying, the decayed subsisting models.
Last edited by Meno_ on Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The reality of mind in the future.

Postby Stephen C Pedersen » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:20 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
encode decode wrote:
I hope the day never comes when AI transcend humans in any way - I would like to see the human race take part in the responsibility that will become AI

AI would have to transcend humans in some way otherwise developing it would be superfluous. And at some point in the future it may become entirely
independent of humans so it will then be responsible for itself. Being machine intelligence might mean it can only process information logically so the
concept of responsibility may be hard to understand from its perspective


And if computers are governed by logic how could they play a game, play a game and like it so much that it never wants the game to end--like we never want life to end? Could it even understand and define what a game is? Usually its like art, we know it when we see it.
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Re: The reality of mind in the future.

Postby Stephen C Pedersen » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:26 pm

David Chalmers see there is a problem with the qualitative aspect of mind that seems rather difficult to compute like the intentional side seems to be. However, that is highly debatable and I have my own concerns with it. However, the qualitative aspect of mind, feelings, sensations, perceptions seem different from tables, chairs, and automobiles. They are intrinsic, subjective aspects to consciousness, which with science can only hint at extrinsic objectivity. Penrose wants to add a new science to science to account for this. I'm interested where this will go since this explanatory gap has a very long beard.
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Re: The reality of mind in the future.

Postby Meno_ » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:41 pm

IT need not understand it merely has to function. There may not be a need to qualify this apart from this intrinsic function, to go on forever, (however that concept is defined), it merely has to be able to self replicate, when the so called human limits to understanding are exceeded-transcended
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Re: The reality of mind in the future.

Postby encode_decode » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:17 am

jerkey wrote:Like everything else, without simplification - will fail to support distinctions , in this case between artificial and authentic. There wll be no use for such a tool-kit, at any rate.

How then should we deal with AI if it becomes smarter than us?
- Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion. (2017) -

But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning, which is to say there is always meaning.(gib - 2017)
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Re: The reality of mind in the future.

Postby encode_decode » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:21 am

jerkey you make interesting points . . .

jerkey wrote:Or maybe someone may think of one, however, it may be exploitative/explorative.

Maybe . . .

jerkey wrote:Visual aesthetics wil be overcome by auditory harmonics, it will be virtually impossible to recreate the formal elements underlying, the decayed subsisting models.

Why?

I am interested to know anyone else's thought here too.
- Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion. (2017) -

But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning, which is to say there is always meaning.(gib - 2017)
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Re: The reality of mind in the future.

Postby encode_decode » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:29 am

I read an interesting article written in 2014 just recently . . . from it I make a quote . . .
Joe Gelonesi wrote:While the Swedish furniture giant might hope for world domination, this might not be part of its plans. It comes down to the idea that the thinking machine doesn’t have to be conscious, nor does its intelligence need to be remotely like ours— all it needs is a goal and a plan. It’s not what intelligence is, it’s what intelligence can do that matters, according to Price.

‘We need to worry about something that’s more effective than we are in controlling the environment on this planet that chooses goals of its own. The danger might actually come from extremely simple goals programmed into it by us.’

Fear not the Terminator, the more mundane factory stacking tool will do.

Read article . . .

Joe seems to make some interesting points that I myself make at times.
- Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion. (2017) -

But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning, which is to say there is always meaning.(gib - 2017)
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Re: The reality of mind in the future.

Postby encode_decode » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:31 am

More good points jerkey . . .
jerkey wrote:IT need not understand it merely has to function. There may not be a need to qualify this apart from this intrinsic function, to go on forever, (however that concept is defined), it merely has to be able to self replicate, when the so called human limits to understanding are exceeded-transcended

Interesting and quite true. Self replication is a potential danger that should be addressed given that an extension to replication is evolution.
- Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion. (2017) -

But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning, which is to say there is always meaning.(gib - 2017)
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Re: The reality of mind in the future.

Postby encode_decode » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:35 am

I can appreciate what you are saying Stephen C Pedersen . . .

:-k

. . . plus it makes me think . . .

Stephen C Pedersen wrote:David Chalmers see there is a problem with the qualitative aspect of mind that seems rather difficult to compute like the intentional side seems to be. However, that is highly debatable and I have my own concerns with it. However, the qualitative aspect of mind, feelings, sensations, perceptions seem different from tables, chairs, and automobiles. They are intrinsic, subjective aspects to consciousness, which with science can only hint at extrinsic objectivity. Penrose wants to add a new science to science to account for this. I'm interested where this will go since this explanatory gap has a very long beard.

I am interested to know a few of your concerns that you mention Stephen.

:D
- Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion. (2017) -

But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning, which is to say there is always meaning.(gib - 2017)
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