We’ll be trying to take a peek at it soon:
bbc.com/news/science-environment-38937141
James S Saint:But whince did the structure arise?
If there were no energy gradient set up such us ours (cold universe (earth + sun) cold universe) [note, a decaying sun that is also in compliance the 2nd law of thmd] we would not have complex life forms (which feed off the sun).
Your theory suggests that complexity rises and then falls. It doesn’t imply that complexity isn’t a violation of entropy.
I don’t see complexity as violating entropy in the long run. We are able to exist because of the micro bubble of energy gradients that we find ourselves in. Complex life forms are more efficient at energy transfer, as you can see from eco tropic pyramids and transfer efficiency at trophic levels. Only 10% of energy is used at each level and 90% is released as heat. Now, imagine how much energy has to be wasted before we get a chance to waste our own, just food-wise. Now, think about how much energy we use and waste just for doing what humans do on daily basis? It’s like we just want to transfer (and waste) as much energy as we can possibly get our hands/minds on. So, in a sense, we can say that increasing complexity, including us, is to do what we do and balance things in universe. We are not special in that sense, only a functional cog in the machinery and certainly not above the natural law. People who claim that evolving complexity is an evidence of something divine seem to forget that there is no such thing as free lunch in the universe and even we are dependent on our environment for our existence.
The fact is that the level of entropy in the universe has never, ever changed. And never will…
And neither does the whole universe’s level of complexity increase or decrease. Through time in any one region, entropy and complexity raises and lowers. The total average throughout the entire universe is infinitely stable, perfectly anentropic.I take it you don’t believe in 2nd law of thermodynamics which states:
…that the total entropy of an isolated system can only increase over time or it can remain constant in ideal cases where the system is in a steady state (equilibrium) or undergoing a reversible process. The increase in entropy accounts for the irreversibility of natural processes, and the asymmetry between future and past.
Black-holes are the most obvious anti-entropy formations throughout the universe. But once two or more of them collide, the entropy is restored in an explosive forming and scattering of millions of galaxies.
Ah, the black holes. This theory is still being debated. Do they violate or do they not violate the 2nd law? Only recently Hawkins declared that there are not ‘true’ black holes, since even they leak radiation and are bound to eventually loose their mass with time. And I would say that it wouldn’t be surprising that with time, if all matter is dispersing, they ought to e-v-e-n-t-u-a-l-l-y disappear as well. But that’s my take on it.
Pan, you seem to be caught up in the excuse making of a specific set of people who desperately tried to defend their preference of prophecy and belief. But if you want to discuss the real story, it is best to do so on the science forum. For example, the Second “Law” of Thermodynamics has been proven wrong for over a century, despite the many attempts to rewrite it to make it seem correct. The most correct rewrite stated that it is merely a propensity, not a law, which would be true. And as black holes crush, disintegrate, and absorb entire galaxies, some radiation escapes. Black holes do not decrease in size or mass. They are run away gravitation, cosmic vacuum cleaners spraying a little refuse dust in their wake.
Atlantis The Ice Age(s) The Flood(s) Pharaoh’s Egypt Babylon Rome Washington
When I ponder the above 7 data points I see:
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The rise and fall of complexity.
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Rising complexity spawning arrogance.
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Rising arrogance triggering a fall.
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Cyclical … yes
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Linear … ???
Begs the question … where are we at the moment?
What difference does it make where you are?
What difference does it make where you are?
Phyllo … allow me to change one word in your question.
What difference does it make where we are?
Perhaps the answer is ‘forecast’ … all businesses do it … the successful businesses get it right! eg Nokia and Apple
For the desperate people … desperate according to James
James wrote:
Pan, you seem to be caught up in the excuse making of a specific set of people who desperately tried to defend their preference of prophecy and belief.
Matthew 16:3
But He replied, “When evening comes, you say, ‘The weather will be fair, for the sky is red;’ and in the morning, ‘Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but not the signs of the times! A wicked and adulterous generation demands a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.” Then He left them and went away.…
You changed the question but did not provide an answer.
The weather people can’t even accurately predict the weather two weeks from now. What can you/we forecast? And what does it all have to do with complexity?
Ice ages last tens of thousands of years.
Rome lasted hundreds or thousands of years, depending on how you count.
How can these be considered “data points” in any reasonable sense?
A wicked and adulterous generation
Somebody has characterized every age in this way.
You changed the question but did not provide an answer.
The weather people can’t even accurately predict the weather two weeks from now. What can you/we forecast? And what does it all have to do with complexity?
Phyllo … I shared some thoughts that popped into my consciousness … triggered at least in part by Pan’s comments concerning the scientific/philosophical notion of complexity.
I have no blue print of the future.
My small mind finds no contradiction between Pan’s scientific/philosophical view of complexity and Teilhard’s somewhat tainted … religious/spiritual … view of complexity.
All people predict/forecast every day … unconsciously … we all predict/forecast that the sun will come up tomorrow.
A wicked and adulterous generation
Somebody has characterized every age in this way.
… and all of those "somebody(s) were right … it’s simply a question of degree.
Atlantis The Ice Age(s) The Flood(s) Pharaoh’s Egypt Babylon Rome Washington
The Ice Age, Atlantis(Eden) is born from God(s), The Floods swept away God’s shame/disappointment, Sumeria?, Egypt/Babylon?, Rome?, Washington/New York?, Armageddon?
If all religions were melded together, what would be THE tenet they were all comprised of?
Atlantis The Ice Age(s) The Flood(s) Pharaoh’s Egypt Babylon Rome Washington
The Ice Age, Atlantis(Eden) is born from God(s), The Floods swept away God’s shame/disappointment, Sumeria?, Egypt/Babylon?, Rome?, Washington/New York?, Armageddon?
If all religions were melded together, what would be THE tenet they were all comprised of?
In a word … “arrogance”
Attempts to usurp the authority … superiority of God.
usurp as in abrogate
the late Dr Wayne Dyer mentioned a plausible acronym for EGO … Edge God Out
abrogate as in repeal God’s laws and replace them with man’s laws.
What are God’s laws?
There is only one … get drunk on agape … selfless … LOVE
I heard many years ago that the OT can be summed up in 9 words and the NT in one word.
OT … I am your God and you are My people.
NT … LOVE
I like care better. Care for yourself and for others, including God. Care is more directive, less ambiguous.
Care for all that lives.
I like care better. Care for yourself and for others, including God. Care is more directive, less ambiguous.
Care for all that lives.
Wendy … you have such a way with words … such a “feminine” way.
I’ve written many times … words in and of themselves are impotent.
Readers … be vigilant … you may feel someone tapping you on your left shoulder … someone who wants to give you an experience of agape love … an experience involving God.
For example, the Second “Law” of Thermodynamics has been proven wrong for over a century…
Show me.