Dogma of Original Sin Revisited

No it isn’t. The entire quote can’t have been published in a “defunct Critic Magazine”.

The author of the quote does not give the issue of Critic Magazine which served as his source.
We are unable to verify his statements.

He does not give his sources either.

:-k Seems to be a trend.

That’s why fake news and fake stories proliferate like the plague. People end up believing all sorts of nonsense.

If people verified the sources, fake nonsense would be nipped in the bud.

Phyllo … you make a very valid point … yet … you also infer the entire Bible … the entire Sanskrit Scriptures … the entire Quran … the entire Buddhist Scriptures and so on … are also “Fake News”. Who can verify their source?

Well, yeah. A lot of people think it is fake. A fair amount of effort goes into trying to figure out who wrote what, when and why.

The bottom line is that you can’t depend on what’s written in those books. You have to be prepared for the possibility that all of it is fiction.

Fortunately, life is not a book.

Yeah … even when we are able to state the 4 w’s unequivocally … we remain unable to confirm the source ergo … God, Krishna, Abba, Yahweh and so on.

Perhaps … yet practically speaking … so much over such a long period of time … in such a diverse geography … suggests there may be some ‘truth’ in all of it.

Really? For me … life is a ‘book’ … with paragraphs(days) … pages (weeks) … chapters (years) and so on. The quintessential challenge is to greet each new day as a “blank page”.

God either exists in your life or He doesn’t. The books are irrelevant. At best they give you good ideas, at worst they give you bad ideas.

The ideas are tested by living.

Make it effective.

Or perhaps, given the right situation, provide the proper understanding behind those words.

That is true, the “Sky Daddy” concept.

As far as I can tell, the only reason that the BB is promoted is to promote that requirement. The BB never happened and God is the reason that it never happened.

That’s true.

I can’t argue much with that, although “not any room” might be a bit too strict.

Well du-uhhh…

Anyone with any real education concerning the scriptures knows that the words were never to be taken literally. A “tree” is not a tree. “Bread” is not bread. “Water” is not water. The book is about SPIRIT, not OBJECTS. And more importantly, it was written for and by people of an entirely different culture, language, and concern than those of today.

A “Biblical Call” is not a phone call! :laughing:

JSS wrote:

Futurism

I see that you are well versed regarding Futurism so I know where you are coming from. To those who are not aware, the Jesuits were commissioned by the Pope to develop a new interpretation of Scripture.

This is also reflected in your response. What you are saying is that one should downplay the importance of doctrine and adopt the attitude that Christianity is really a matter only of the spirit, a pleasant fellowship and that everything else is a minor accompaniment.

Which means, if science makes great discoveries, then manipulate the doctrines to fit these discoveries, which is really another way of saying… abandon the doctrines, hence Jesuit Futurism was born.

Bible Prophecy

Human nature has not changed. Man/Woman are the same as they were yesterday and are today.

The Scriptures are just as relevant now as they were then.

The Book of Revelations means to reveal or disclose. It’s purpose is to reveal crucial issues about end-time events and to prevent ignorance about the future.

Prophecy is used for two purposes, to warn and to recognise.

Because Revelation pertains specifically to the end of time, and

because we live in the closing time of Earth’s history,

this book, in particular, deserves our attention if, we want to recognize the signs and know the future and understand what is to take place.

Quite the contrary. Until you learn how to read the book, it remains merely a hearsay, probably wrong scribble. Once you understand what the book was actually saying, you recognized how relevant it is.

The use of metaphor and symbolism was alive, well, and very well used long before the Jesuits existed.

Well, the story says that the serpent convinced Eve to eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Thus Eve bore the mark of her sinful nature and to mix what good and evil were. Pope Paul VI declared that this was a metaphor, along with the original creation story, to fit the narrative of modern science and technology. If Genesis was written by a woman I wouldn’t be surprised. At the end of the first Genesis chapter it declares that when Eve ate the fruit she felt ashamed of her body and she and Adam covered their bodies in shame. This is decisively a female issue, as most men, at least modern men, feel no shame when exposing their bodies. Take a look at the frequency of nude selfies by men.

The Genesis story could be metaphorically true. I don’t think there was a talking snake or fruit that bore original sin. However, there had to be a point where people went from being naked to wearing clothes. There had to be some part in our evolution that decisively made us think in the duality of good and evil. The reason why Genesis, and many other parts of the Bible hold true to so many is its first messages. It repeats, “and it was good”, the creation of the Universe, the creation of light, the creation of the Earth. While literally some of it cannot be true, the fact that Christians view it as good and part of divine nature, atheists could adapt, not by believing in a God, but by simply viewing the creation (us) as good. There are too many people who think we’re all fucked, and most of them atheists. At least Christians believe their faithful will at least go somewhere nice when the Judgment Day comes.

Really? Tell that to the hundreds of Christian cults that told us “the end times are coming”. Climate changers/global warming say the same thing. There’s a lot of bullshit on both sides of the coin. Most eschatology stories revolve bad things happening, and everything getting wiped out. There is no hope for these people - both the religious and non-religious. Most people don’t see what’s really going on, save for a few exceptions like Teilhard, Rothblatt and Kurzweil who understand the “big picture”. Many Christians will say these people are part of the Illuminati, such fools they are. It’s people like them that will help us save our future, our lives and our image. I would contend that The Phenomenon of Man or The Singularity Is Near and the Lifeboat Foundation do more for people and are more relevant in our modern and future ages than any book written literally thousands of years ago.

Shameless plugs, eh…

It mentions a “Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil”. Have you ever seen a tree of knowledge … of anything?

If it was to be literal, don’t you think that science would have discovered one of those laying about, perhaps fossilized by now? I can tell you where to find one. They became very common just a few decades ago. And the fruit from that particular tree still destroys paradise for the same reason now as then.

The trick is that it’s meant to be both- literal and figurative- woven together.

The Eden story symbolizes a point of mammalian evolution–the fall into mind with consciousness of Self. There was/is no original sin. See Matthew Fox’s “Original Blessing”.

The unfortunate thing about original sin, is that it has made many people feel bad/guilty for no good reason. It’s a very destructive doctrine.

The truth often is. And sometimes it changes from being what everyone needs to know to what everyone should forget.

But the one thing you can count on, is that lying is always present.

JSS wrote:

Metaphors and symbolism are used in prophecy, some examples

Trees refer to people

Water means nations

Woman is a church

Dragon/serpent refers to Satan

Not forgetting days mean years

Genesis is very clear in its meaning and literal concerning the “tree”.

Genesis
6 Consequently, the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was something desirable to the eyes, yes, the tree was pleasing to look at. So she began taking of its fruit and eating it.+ Afterward, she also gave some to her husband when he was with her, and he began eating it.

It reverts to symbolism when referring to prophecy

Genesis 3:15King James Version (KJV)

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

“I am the vine, you are the branches, and my father is the gardener.” The metaphor of the vine.

But the numbers are on your side James. According to a Barna Group study, (The Barna Group is an evangelical Christian polling firm based in Ventura, California) 55% of American pastors do not believe in the Bible anymore as the unerring Word of God and they say, it is not to be taken too literally.

The sad truth is, however, that rarely does a congregation question the pastor or it’s leadership. Most people simply accept without checking its accuracy in the Scriptures.

Letting the Bible explain itself allows for no other private interpretation.

The Bible calls itself a double-edged sword:

For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword (Hebrews 4:12 NKJV).

Adam, Eve and Serpent represent the three parts (stages) of the human mind/brain–forebrain, mammalian and reptilian. In that view, the story aligns with evolutionary changes. I would suggest that our experiences of these changes provide us with the thoughts and language with which we can describe anything. Had we lived during the time the Genesis story was written we would probably have seen our motives in terms of men, women and animals.

JSS wrote:

In the first chapter of Genesis 1.11-13 it tells that God filled the earth with trees on the third day of Creation.

In the second chapter it is written that two trees stood out as unique from all of the others. Genesis 2.9 “And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.”

In the last chapter of the Bible it says in Revelation 22:1-2 that the tree of life stands in the very center of the city of God, no longer on earth, but will be returned when the earth is renewed.

The two trees also illustrate an important fact. Humans were designed with the freedom of choice.

Rev Karban’s scripture commentary for March 19th seems to address some of the issues raised in this OP. Perhaps reading it will trigger some worthwhile ILP member commentary or questions.

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Amen. Like I said, lacking faith/trust in God, our Creator, was and will always be the original sin of Mankind.