Subjectivity versus Objectivity

If, in the end, it turns out that we live in a wholly determined universe, then it would seem that everything [including this exchange] is only as it ever could have been. And it is hard to imagine something more objective than that.

But if human consciousness [mindful matter] is able to assess all of this with some measure of actual autonomy, then things get real tricky, real fast.

Then what is left to do is to determine where precisely to draw the line between that which is true objectively for all of us and that which we think is true “in our head” subjectively, but may or may not be able to demonstrate as in fact true for everyone.

And you know where I draw that particular line “here and now”.

Reality is hierarchical.
At every level of reality, it is dualistic, i.e. it can either be subjective or objective.
However at the ultimate level of reality, there is only subjectivity, i.e. subject-centric reality.

At the various levels of reality, objectivity is merely intersubjectivity, i.e. shared-subjectivity. In this case, objectivity is merely there is consensus of subjective cognitions within a group of people, e.g. scientists and their Scientific theories as agreed by consensus within their peers based on the defined Scientific Method.

The different levels of the hierarchy of objectivity, i.e. inter-subjectivity, is represented by different degrees of objectivity.
The various degrees of objectivity is conditioned by and correlate to the confidence levels generated by the degrees of testability, repeatability, and other verification processes.
Thus for example Scientific theories generate a high degree of objectivity and confidence levels because its theories can be tested and results repeated using the Scientific Method by all and anyone who wish to do that.

Theological doctrines are not sufficiently objective because they cannot be tested and results repeated by all and anyone.

There are all sorts of so-called knowledge out there, e.g. legal, social, political, etc. but they are only so-claimed to be objective “subjected” to their defined framework. Since they are ‘subjected’ they are ultimately inter-subjective at best.

Objectivity is always inter-subjectivity.
There is no such thing as an absolute independent objectivity that can stand on its own without being subjected to some framework of cognitions by subjects.

I initially voted in as an objectionist, because there are no independent subjects, per se, they just think so, and their thoughts are learned, and as such extended indefinitely as objects of learning. However I did not think of one thing when I voted, and that is the ontological assumption that the above is based on is not what really moves the world, rather, it is the assumption that it is THEMOVER, the solitary ONE on the top of the heap WHO matters.

The epistomology and consequentially the mass psychology is what matters. Therefore, in order to be able to make sense, in the way Wittgenstein used that term, is what is only relevant. Metaphysics is like Proust would have it, mere remembrance, of style, method, class, ideals, morals, and society.

Therefore I tried to change my vote from objective to subjective, but the way this forum is set up, it is not possible.

Is there a way You can change this to accommodate people like me, who have reversed because of indecision?

If you claim that it is all subjective, you have just declared that it is all objectively so.

True, but there is no sense in doing so, because nowadays it’s appearances that count. The effects justify the means, and how the derivation of both, the meaning and its effects cease to be seen as entirely connected.

It has become a pseudo paradoxical argument, where for most people, it’s far easier to dispose of an unnecessary and inconvenient complexity. What difference is there became somewhat of a conflict between the need to understand in a way which establishes a dialectical relationship between the mind as self and others, whereas, such is not derivable on that level in any case. The complexity suffers an abrigement the same way as history has shorn of the relationship between redundancy and entropy. A formal derivation leaves a substantial portion of the basis of the argument behind, and looses all causal connections with it except the emergent idea that there is no need for such a demonstration in the first place.

The crux of this his chain is that yes, you have to be a subject to realize that learning is learning of objective facts, and such objectivity is no longer based on d as as such; implemented on paradigms models. Then if not, the whole structure of this deal have shifted their meaning into an epistemological sink hole, and thing start making less sense.

So as to avoid this, ideas have become fixed, as Valery suggested, as a way to stop this kind of regression. However such fixing eventually stops the meaning’s diminishing significance, and still people stick to them, almost memorialize them.

At this juncture a split occurs, and the metaphors get ever more complex, as their meaning becomes more opaque. To make sense nowadays become a function of proof, of intervening direct experience of repetition of fine tuning further and further clarification, within demonstrations of differing contexts.

As such, the need to be objective releases it from the exact, on the spot indication of exact meaning, for objectivity releases its hold on the need to show casual relationships with its various subjective interpretations, with the assimptive claim that all subjective criteria have an objective basis.

Though such demonstration is fairly a sensibly unremarkable task, in reality, such sense does not pertain or conclusively lead to its sensibility, thus appearing more a paradoxical and futile search into the theory of meaning then need to be.

If it makes little difference to do so, then reversely, it is equally futile to objectify a scenario where, it would objectify an entirely subjective world.

The subjectivity is basically a useful tool nowadays to appease an uneducated public into the ways of usage, and how it interferes with logical consistency.

The positivist school was only a way to deal with effects of how such simple notions become incredibly complex in the mind of man, and become seen as undefinable, glance impractical and senseless.

Would you agree, if someone obejectively said that you were a subjectivist?

:wink:

And what do you mean by “accomodate people”, Jerkey?

I am a Subjective-Objectivist, as there must exist something that is not a person nor the experience of any person residing in the external world, but given that existence only appears in the form of persons and that which persons experience, this “thing” is probably just the material making up persons and their experiences, as opposed to something that is not subjective experience in the least.

I’m both in a particular way. The only objective truth I’m aware of is the presence of my subjective reality. The fact that (my) experience seems to be taking place is an objective fact from my standpoint, similar to the cogito with a few caveats that are worth mentioning. The second form of objectivity is actually an overlay onto subjectivity. This idea that there is stuff “out there” is of course an idea that is subserviant to your subjectivity. You get a ton of reductio ad absurdum even from distinguished philosophy professors so I expect it here, too. But if we are really being honest and brave we must admit to ourselves that subjectivity is all you know of the universe, and that your mind might in fact be the universe. Sorry to be the one to tell you.

Well, that’s a belief, anyway, one that might be true or false for all one knows but cannot be proven one way or the other due to the inaccessibility of the external world.

All due respect, I have discovered that it’s not a good idea to claim a belief as absolute, irrefutable fact–particularly beliefs about the nature of the external world.

Beyond this, yeah, subjectivity is all we know of the universe.

Phenomenal Graffiti

It wasn’t my aim to state a belief just an observation. I have to formulate my hypotheses of reality based on only sense data, thoughts, logic, emotion and word games. This has led me to an observation that this is all we encounter, and it’s takes place in our brain or mind. it’s best to tell yourself there is an objective world outside your mind because if you don’t do that it will suck for you. But you have no logical reason to think that there is such a world or that even if there was you’d live in it as opposed to living in your mind. That’s a problem with having a mind. I liken it to being at a movie engrossed in a story and suddenly becoming aware of the row of seats and the little lights that line the aisle and the facts that movies are actors on a set. The story becomes flat and meaningless and you can’t get into it. However this is a bad thing, and you need to let yourself get lost in the movie and enjoy it. The best philosophy is one that lets you do this. It is pragmatic to filter out that which doesn’t support objective reality. Just eat your popcorn and enjoy the damn movie. Get some milk duds while you’re at it. To think brilliantly and correctly is to eventually break your soul and Shanghai it. Escaping from the event horizon of a black hole is hard but can be done. We are human and we are so good at delusion.

But if the only thing that exists is a person’s mind, and the mind is not a construct of objective, non-person flotsam and jetsam in the external world, is the mind eternal, or did it magically pop into existence from previous non-existence with all its absurd bells and whistles attached?

At some point you have to ask that same question about any base system you decide to believe in, be it the universe, or even a creator of said universe. At some point there has to be a thing that either popped into existence or always was, and it will have some bells and whistles at the inception, and possibly have more as it persists and bounces off itself to create patterns. In any case, we can be objectivists all we want, but that’s an act of faith, and probably not a bad idea, to be honest. I believe in objective reality in the same way others believe in God. It’s a pragmatic leap of faith that pays genuine dividends. I don’t find any empirical or logical reason to believe in it, not nearly as much a priori evidence as we obviously have to believe in subjective reality. It amazes me when philosopher-shaped beings in my mind disagree with this word game but then I remind myself that they are after all classified as human and it’s a tough nut for most humans to withstand, self included, w/o going nuts. Thank God for the Peter Paul axiom .

You know, I can’t really argue against this. Actually, I believed the same until I embraced subjective objectivism in the form of mental particles in the external world. But empirically, I believe you’re right. One can have faith in the objective while observing the certainty of the subjective, with no proof, really, that the subjective—eternal or magically coming into existence from non-existence absurdly with bells and whistles with the ability to evolve and create external patterns of itself—is not the only thing in existence.

Bravo, it was like watching my younger self speak to the older.

What is your self-evaluation?

SUBJECTIVE: 1__2__3__4__5__6__7__8__9__10
OBJECTIVE : 1__2__3__4__5__6__7__8__9__10

[tab]Greetings from Spain:

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Subjective 10

Objective 5

Ah, well if I’m right then it’s not “like” your younger self speaking to you. It literally is the case.

We should probably pick a new hobby.

To me this question is like asking if I believe more in mathematics or in geometry, which? :confused:

Although I do not know you very much, I guess that your self-evaluation is an honest one.

[tab]Greetings from Spain:

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