Again with a pursuit of truth? I take back any compliment I gave you concerning your thinking capabilities. I’m thinking more that you’ll never get it. What truth, which truth? The Truth? A truth? What about the lies and how important they’ve been to your life? Will you shed them like so many skins, leave them behind like jilted lovers in your pursuit for your elusive ‘truth’? How important is it to you, you stupid dumbass. Important enough to set your ego and vanity to the side? I doubt the great Kropotkin can do that, when he’s all about his name and attaching it to everything he posts. I doubt the great Kropotkin and his journey for the truth or any truth will survive a shedding of lies since they can’t even manage the shedding of pride and vanity and arrogance to admit any wrongness on their behalf or to openly contest their own beliefs. Give up, it’s a waste journey for you. stay down
K: growing old is one long journey into leaving the lies behind…
I once believed I was many, many things… smart and brilliant and
suave and good looking and many other flattering things… today,
don’t believe any of it…My vanity is long gone… I have no pride
and I certainly don’t think I have some exclusive contract with the truth…
but if you leave the lies behind, what is left?
Your anger blinds you to what I am saying and that is fine…
I contest the “truth” with every word I write… you just don’t see that…
and that is not my problem… I am old and when you are old, you don’t
have any lies to comfort you because they have all been disproven over the
years… I am a good father… a lie I used to tell myself, I am a good husband,
another lie, I am a good human being, yep, you guessed it, a lie… so how do
I get to be a good human being or a good father… I find the truth of being
a good father or the truth of being a good human being… Lies don’t feed
my soul like they did when I was young… now, I hunger for the truth because
it does feed my soul… you are young and someday… perhaps, you will
see the wisdom of what I say… but don’t worry about it… I will be long dead
before wisdom comes to you and you will be saved from apologizing to me…
Kropotkin
Peter … a turbulent few days … I really enjoyed your last posts.
Yesterday, while reflecting on our e-exchanges an image popped into my consciousness … here’s the image
- You carrying the torch for philosophy and me carrying the torch for spirit(uality)
2)Side by side we walk into the FIRE … a blazing inferno …
- After a time in the FIRE we will come to understand whether or not philosophy and spirit(uality) are truly “one”
I’m intrigued with Random Factor’s post … for me … it’s manifestation of the “FIRE” I mentioned above.
K: thank you… I think…
Anyway, it is said that man cannot understand god because god exists
beyond man’s limit of understanding… I disagree with this…
human beings can understand anything under the sun because
everything is made of the same basic building blocks… everything is
made of atoms… the one substance in the universe and everything else
is just variations of that one basic substance…
so, we are connected to everything and if we are understandable (and we are)
then everything in the universe is understandable… some stuff we have to work
at more then other stuff, but in the end, there are no limits to man’s understanding
of the universe…we simply have to push the limits as far as we can and in
pushing those limits, we discover what is possible and everything is possible
if we work at it long enough… I might say, that there are things that are impossible
such as “pigs can fly” and we said that about humans and yet, we fly every single day…
just because “we” can’t fly, doesn’t mean there isn’t a work around that maxim…
we just need to figure out the work around…despite centuries of conventional
thinking that “man cannot fly” we can and we prove it every single day…
the only limits we have are the limits we place upon ourselves and we can easily
change those… everything is possible because there are no limits, no
boundaries… because everything in the universe is made of the same stuff…
Kropotkin
It’s not your fault, Kropotkin. Someday you will be free of the flesh, further down your path, and you will understand what I say better at that point. I doubt you’ll ever get passed the things that you’ve got past already and I’m pretty sure you’ll get stuck on nothing for too long and be successful for all the pain and bullshit that that means. Don’t take it personally when I test you to see if you stay down or get back up. By the way, stay down, though. You don’t want to get up. Not at your age; not worth it. Next life, maybe.
K: as I am substantially older then you… (I turn 58 today as a matter of fact)
the question really becomes not if I ever understand you, but if you ever
understand me…as I am older, I have already passed your stage of, for lack of
a better word, development, I have truths that can only be understood
as you age and you are not ready for because of your youth…and for no other
reason…this concept of age related truths doesn’t make sense when
you are young, but as you age, as I have aged, you will see it…I was
born handicapped, I have fought my way in this world all my life…
I will go where angels fear to go… I am not afraid of anything that life
has to offer… you cannot frighten me or scare me or turn me aside…
I WILL pursue the truth wherever it goes and no matter who says what…
my road has taken me places you haven’t even dreamed of, not physically
but in philosophy and in thought…I have been an anarchist and
a socialist and a moderate democrat and a very liberal democrat…
I have been a follower of Nietzsche and Hume and of Schopenhauer and
Kierkegaard and Goethe and Kazantakis at various times in my life…
I pursued god for 40 years and now I pursue man with the same
intensity…
Kropotkin
delusions that hold humans beings back…
infinity… god…limits… boundaries…
selfishness… guilt… hate… anger…lust (for money or a person)
because those things just listed don’t work or don’t exist…
we should stick to things that do work and do exist…
love… hope… passion (which is different then desire or lust)
reason…life…and then push the boundaries/limits on these things…
works like infinity are words that is so large when heard, they frighten people
to give up, but words like finite are accessible and reachable, so we can
keep going when hearing words like finite and possible and hope…
because if it is finite, it is possible and reachable…
god cannot be reached because of the idea of infinite but make god
finite and he becomes reachable…
so I reject words like infinite and impossible and unreachable…
everything is reachable and possible and finite because everything is
made of the exact same thing… atoms and everything is just a variation
of the same atoms…
Kropotkin
at the appointed time you will know one way or the other.
I admire your tenacity … another image this morning 
an old cartoon … a lion … maybe an elephant … can’t remember … becomes trapped in a rope net. None of the animals in the animal kingdom can set it free … and along comes a mouse … chews through the rope … and the lion or the elephant regains it’s freedom.
what message(s) are the creators of this cartoon trying to convey?
-
maybe the cartoon is simply for entertainment
-
perhaps there is a subtle profundity being conveyed
-
maybe the creators are bible thumpers … echoing the biblical message …
- maybe the creators are Taoists … echoing the Tao De Jing
[b]
[/b]
who knows eh!
does anybody really care?
K: it doesn’t matter if anybody knows or cares because we philosophers
will be creating values and understanding ism’s and ideologies and finding
truth even if no one knows or no cares… the population goes on
living and buying and sleeping and taking care of their kids… finding
the truth is not possible for them because they are so busy being busy…
that we must think and understand for them and then report our findings
back in easy to understand language…we philosophize because the
vast majority of people won’t, don’t or can’t… we ask why, when the majority
of people don’t have the time to ask why…so it doesn’t really matter if anybody
knows or if anybody cares… we are still here…searching for the truth…
Kropotkin
a common misconception: that having knowledge 1+1 =2 is
the same as having wisdom… the two, knowledge and wisdom
are the two different and separate items…many, many have
knowledge that I don’t have and will never have and yet,
I am wiser because I ask why…don’t make the common mistake
of thinking because you have knowledge, you are wise…
wisdom and knowledge are two different things until…
knowledge encompasses the why and wisdom encompasses the how…
Kropotkin
And yet you still learned much from me in your pursuit of understanding Aristotle. There are so many people older than me for me to learn from and even put myself in their perspectives and perceptions, you’re just another one among the bunch. Think I don’t understand you? Think I don’t see you clearly? I’ve always seen you and where you are.
I say fuck anarchy, fuck chaos, fuck order, fuck balance and fuck imbalance, fuck discipline and fuck the lack of it, fuck nietzsche and hume and schopenhaur and kierkegaard and goethe and kazantakis, fuck religion and christianity, fuck buddhism and taoism, fuck the peasants and royals both, fuck the dead and fuck the living, fuck even the philosophers you don’t know and the strong men you’ve never heard of, fuck darwin and his darwinism; fuck government, fuck the establishment, fuck heaven and fuck hell and fuck man and fuck woman and fuck the universe, fuck the earth.
What spark is in you that drives your curiosity, that consumes you with your supposed desires that you chase rampant through the mire? You say you’ve been caught chasing those men and God for 40 years of life? And now you’re chasing man? If such foolish goals you have, to go chasing cheshire cats, trying to catch smoke on the wind, you missed the very important factor that some things, most things; you have to let come to you when they choose to. You think that spark of life can’t be nipped out while you still live? Can’t be revived even in death beyond and without the flesh and what do you suppose gives that spark of life it’s shine instead of its dullness?
You think I try to frighten you or scare you or are those so many words to push in my way to distract me as you run some more, or is it a trap to get from me some more of what gave you reason to leave your old life behind in search of new, at 58 years old?
And I’ve taught you nothing at all? I’m the child that must learn more from you? Why? Who are you that I should learn more from? I’ve seen the works of the men that you were caught up in for 40 years and all their works paled before mine, were but a step behind me every time I looked in and read them. They have always just been a backdrop; no wonder you put them behind after 40 years of pursuing them once I crossed your path for all the world like a will o the wisp you had grown so tired of chasing into the boggy mire of the dangerous swamps and fens of the world you sought to know beyond what you should. And did you not listen to the haunting melodies of do not tempt and do not test and do not underestimate the almighty.
You can look all around you, in fact, you will look all around you, in every man and woman you run across and all you’ll find is a pale imitation spark of what’s inside of me; a mimicry that seeks to match the intensity; new life breathed into flesh to combat, for a moment, the decadence and in each person you view with your own new vision, you create anew and add your own touches for what you perceive to see in them whether it was there before or not.
you were born with a physical handicap, had to fight your way into it, I’m sure, against insecurity, doubt, fear, hatred, etc. I was born with a handicap of the mind and spirit, besieged and set upon the very moment of my inception in the womb, and have helped create the universe and its system of checks and balances, from a young age cutting my teeth not just on my enemies, but on time travel and alternate reality theory, and forming theories to put the elite of time and space to shame.
You are, however, ready for your next lesson in pain and humility. And, I think I’ve got just the thing for it as I invite your demons in knowingly and give them refuge and a place to rest for the moment. The ones that have chased you throughout your life, that have flitted from person to person that you’ve ran into until you guessed a conspiracy on all levels. They had an easy job of following you around and making you think whatever you wanted of everyone around you, perceive whatever they caused you to perceive, even jump into others bodies and taunt you with the things that bothered you the most.
Pursue your knowledge of man, your obsession, you will look and all you will see is whatever it is in the moment you choose to allow yourself to see that only reinforces everything else you’ve learned and you will learn the abject hard way of just what will be come to pass that you already know is coming and hide from yourself to continue down the path of least resistance, least pain, only to knowingly trap yourself in feeling the pain and thinking that it’s better that way.
But I’ve got a slap or two to give you before you get too far down that path; a thing or two to hash out and might not get the chance in this life time, never can tell when the moment comes or doesn’t until it does or doesn’t. Best not to make too many plans. But, while I’m here and in this place, as I’ve already been able to claim that you would still be stuck where you were if not for me, I can similarly claim that if you want to continue strutting about in arrogance and pride and cockiness, be sure that I have not even done so once. You want a pissing contest, or so it seems, but can you even bring it to bear, do you even still know how to handle a loaded gun? Be careful it doesn’t misfire on you.
K: as I am substantially older then you… (I turn 58 today as a matter of fact)
the question really becomes not if I ever understand you, but if you ever
understand me…as I am older, I have already passed your stage of, for lack of
a better word, development, I have truths that can only be understood
as you age and you are not ready for because of your youth…and for no other
reason…this concept of age related truths doesn’t make sense when
you are young, but as you age, as I have aged, you will see it…I was
born handicapped, I have fought my way in this world all my life…
I will go where angels fear to go… I am not afraid of anything that life
has to offer… you cannot frighten me or scare me or turn me aside…
I WILL pursue the truth wherever it goes and no matter who says what…
my road has taken me places you haven’t even dreamed of, not physically
but in philosophy and in thought…I have been an anarchist and
a socialist and a moderate democrat and a very liberal democrat…
I have been a follower of Nietzsche and Hume and of Schopenhauer and
Kierkegaard and Goethe and Kazantakis at various times in my life…
I pursued god for 40 years and now I pursue man with the same
intensity…
RF: I say fuck anarchy, fuck chaos, fuck order, fuck balance and fuck imbalance, fuck discipline and fuck the lack of it, fuck nietzsche and hume and schopenhaur and kierkegaard and goethe and kazantakis, fuck religion and christianity, fuck buddhism and taoism, fuck the peasants and royals both, fuck the dead and fuck the living, fuck even the philosophers you don’t know and the strong men you’ve never heard of, fuck darwin and his darwinism; fuck government, fuck the establishment, fuck heaven and fuck hell and fuck man and fuck woman and fuck the universe, fuck the earth.
K: and this is why I am a better philosopher and much wiser then you…
instead of saying fuck this and fuck that… I say, let us understand anarchy and
chaos and order and balance and so on and so forth…I reflect, not from anger or
despair like you do, I reflect because I wonder… it is a positive thing for me
and a negative thing for you… anger is a negative emotion and wonder is a positive
emotion…truth be told, I feel sad for you because of all your negative
emotions… and I hope you find your way out… it took me years to navigate
my way out of negative emotions but finally I did… and I hope you do to…
Kropotkin
I already understand them completely. Why don’t you try to understand why someone that understands them completely would turn and say ‘fuck them’. And, I’m not even being negative, but, you’re too blinded to see that clearly. Just another fool, no matter of age; no different than trixie or any of the other young ones.
You’re just another troll, and I saw that clearly from the first time I encountered you and your ‘strange’ ways. Just another snake in the grass, thinking itself hidden from what it tries to perceive as prey. You’re nothing new, by any means. Another fraud, another fake. Told ya, though, old man, it’s best ya just stay down at your age. You no longer remember how to shoot your gun properly and you’ve forgotten all that you’ve known, if anything, about gun maintenance.
I’ve got a new understanding of time and space; so new that it’s ancient. Everything ties into everything else, the more you go in search down one avenue or another, you find the same, though you’re often driven by the one-minded, single-track thoughts you’re driven by. You’re multi-faceted, Kropotkin? Is that what you’re telling me, you’re something you’ve never been before in your life and trying to lie your way into faking it until you make it like so many other liars and hoping not to be seen for what you are? How can you claim to see clearly when your mind is so middled and muddled by lies and deceits and trying to hide, when it’s so muddled and middled by your acts, your masks, your arrogance and pride, your dark thoughts and your thin, sheer veneer of affronted nature at being called out. You’ve already been studying men, are you seeking to try to deconstruct the greats in your own mind when your works have, in no way, trumped theirs and they already stand on more firm and solid; higher; ground, than you will ever stand on in eternity? You should be running faster. You’re nothing more but a base magician, a wannabe wizard that thought his gambits and gambles had finally paid off and you could cash in, just like so many others. There is absolutely nothing unique about you.
The great Kropotkin! Like the great Kavaldi!, Like the great Khali! The great Khalayman, Sulayman, Saurumon! How many different iterations and incarnations? And does it even matter? You’re no stranger to me, Peter. How you wish you were, but you are no stranger to me.
K: and you call me vain… I don’t pretend to claim to understand things
as you claim to understand everything… order, chaos, and balance, among others
things you have claimed to understand… let me list all the things you claim to
understand… evolution, science, philosophy, the earth, religions, the establishment,
the living and the dead whereas … I make no such claim…
so I call bullshit on your claim to understand ALL knowledge, for that is what
you are talking about…
the curse of being young is thinking you know everything,
the curse of being old is knowing you don’t know anything
Kropotkin
because you are vain, it’s not about what you claim, it’s about your body language and general attitude. I make claims, but those claims are natural for me to claim, I’ve earned the right. Learn something.
K: and how exactly have you “earned the right” to make claims you know
everything? as for my “body language”, that would be a little tough over
the internet to see, in addition to knowing everything, you claim to
be able to see me over the internet via my words I use… that is a
fascinating claim…you are clearly a superhero along the lines
of thor or the hulk… you are miscasts as a lonely, misguided
member of a small, unknown internet web site…
why hasn’t marvel made a movie about you? inquiring minds want to know
and who do you think should play you?
Kropotkin
and once again it is 4 in the morning and my back pain is keeping me up…
so here I am…
I am in the midst of Renaissance philosophy and I am reading about Italian
nature philosophers which is an interesting topic buuuuuuuut…
does it give someone, who is lying in bed wondering what its all
about, something to get hold of… What the hell am I doing here?
what is my point here and trust me Italian nature philosopher/philosophy as interesting as
as it is, is not going to answer the question of my meaning, my purpose or even a more
basic question… how am I to live my life? I see people in my daily life who get ahead
by cheating and lying and screwing everyone around them and they make more money
and they are managers and they become president of the US. How can I justify
my playing the “game” with honor and integrity when I see others get ahead by
being assholes… what are the rules to life and what do I get by playing the
rules “the right way”?
The Christian says, you must play the rules and the game as god has
created it… and if you play by god’s rules… the 10 commandments
and the like, you get rewarded by heaven or punished by hell…
I don’t subscribe to that point of view, to quote Sting…
this idea of reward and punishment is strong in America
we have an entire multi-billion dollar system of courts and
cops and prisons making sure the punishment for breaking the rules
is severe but what about rewards? We certainly don’t get rewarded
by playing by the rules as I mentioned above…I have had 7 or 8
managers in my store… and each one was a vile, lying sack of shit who
had no problem screwing someone out of a dime if it help them make
their bonus…corporate knew who these people were and yet,
still made them managers, knowing they are vile pieces of shit…
it is a corporate decision to make these horrible human beings
the face of the local store… and they get rewarded by being
pieces of shit with bonuses and promotions… a bigger store,
the bigger the bonuses and for management, the name of the game
is bonuses…they manage for their bonuses, not how it helps the
store get better or helps the employees… watching this for almost
10 years, what incentive do I have to play by the rules and be
a decent human being? you say, the store could fire you…
nah, not really, I have a union and outside of insubordination
and stealing, I can’t really be fired… and yet, most employees
are decent and hard working people, unlike the managers…
and get paid a whole lot less then managers and work a whole lot
more then the managers…so what is the incentive to honor the rules
of society when there doesn’t seem to be any reward to do so?
Punishment, yes, but reward, no…I am maxed out at work…
so no more raises, I am at my top bracket… so I am basically
just spinning my wheels day after day after day, with no reward
to be a kind, decent human being and yet, day after day after
day, I am…how does philosophy specifically help me
be and stay a kind, decent human being?
not by Descartes search for certainty of knowledge…
not by the medieval search for god and his and ours
role in society…
how does Aristotle categories help me be a kind and decent human being?
or how does Russell’s and Whitehead search for a mathematical language
help me become a kind and decent human being?
the problem with philosophy is so much of it lies outside of
what I need to make choices about my life…
what philosophy is needed to help me decide to be a kind and decent
human being? or do I even want to be a kind and decent human being
because there certainly doesn’t seem to be any reward in doing so…
we have punishment for being bad and yet the bad are rewarded
every single day…how do I justify my behavior good or bad?
certainly not by reward or punishment because we see that is fucked up
and the good are punished and the bad rewarded…
part of the reason that philosophy is so ignored and dislike is because it
cannot/won’t/ can’t answer these questions about how we are to live our lives
and why we should make the choices we should make…
why should I be a decent, kind, honorable human being when there
is no reward for doing so?
I know enough history to know that being a god fearing human doesn’t prevent one
from being a totally mean, vicious, violent, human being… for one
can always find some reason that allows them to be vile human beings
even if they believe in god…
we can create 7 billion reasons for us to be decent, honorable, kind
and we can then find 7 billion reasons for us to be a vile, nasty piece of work
and find few reasons not to be…maybe god will punish us,
but close to the time of death, simply repent and heaven awaits even
after a lifetime of being a douche bag of a human being… a simple
statement right before death and all is forgiven… a lifetime of
being vile and nasty and corrupt and 3 seconds of a line and
its all good…that doesn’t seem to be any kind of encouragement
to be a kind or decent or honorable human being… one small line
near death and away we go…this gives me even less a reason to be
religious when it certainly doesn’t stop people from being vile human beings…
so how do I live my life and why should I choose that way?
philosophy can tell me how I can be certain about the nature
of knowledge and yet can’t tell me about something so basic and
fundamental in my life as how do I live my life???
Kropotkin