You eat meat. You are the biggest hypocrit on the planet.
I’m tormented every night by the horror’s of this world. Don’t speak to me about piety.
I am a pious narcissist, an angel of good, a god amongst manimals.
I’m tormented by the horror’s of this world every night, such as the mouse in my house who won’t leave me alone.
So you’re saying we can’t consider 2 people in an isolated exchange, that to understand your point, I have to consider how such an exchange effects the entire world. It’s true that in the exchange, no one else but us two are getting the house/money. So even if it’s a win/win for us, everyone else still doesn’t get what they want.
Ultimately, this means it has nothing to do with exchanges. If I kept my money and the other guy kept his house, the rest of the world would still have neither.
Now this doesn’t mean that everyone’s unhappy. Only some people are… and only those who are homeless (or hungry, or deprived of sex). I mean, sure not everyone can have the house that I buy, but some of these are billionaires in mansions. I’m happy with the house I bought. The billionaire’s happy with his mansion. It’s only the homeless to whom this world is a cruel, cruel place.
But sure, compared to a universe in which we can create whatever we want, have as much as we want, like an infinite number of sexy lady-zombies, this world might seem horrible in comparison… for anybody… but I think that’s a relative matter.
So you concede the point. And yes, like I explained in another thread: if you become celibate or chaste, you hurt those who want that sexual bond with you, if you have sex with someone, you hurt all the other people who wanted to share that with you.
No matter what you do in this world system, you hurt ACTUAL and not hypothetical people.
Why would anyone tolerate that??
That’s why I say that this world system is inherently evil, and those who defend it are as well.
At a certain point, in this existential crisis of shit, you need to expand out of the box for meaning and purpose;;;; what else is there???
Ok, but I still don’t think this holds for absolutely every move you can make. What if you’re old, fat, and ugly, and nobody wants to have sex with you. Then you’re not really hurting anybody by going celibate.
I think you’re better off making the more general, and simpler, point that we live in a world of scarce resources and millions of people are deprived of basic wants and necessities. ← That’s what makes this world so damn bad, not the principle that every move you make ends up hurting someone.
^ I think more people would agree with you if you just stuck to that.
And here’s the next point on which I need a bit of clarification. “Evil” to me connotes malicious intentions or a malicious character. The systems of the world that make life so horrible are pretty awful but they’re not “malicious”–they don’t go out of their way to hurt you any more than an earthquake goes out of its way to hurt you. So unless you want to say some horrible intelligent being deliberately threw us into the situation we’re in, I think this is a misuse of the term “evil”–but I still agree, it’s a pretty horrible world.
I’m also not so keen on blaming people for defending the system, or labeling them “evil”–I think it all depends on what they know of the system they’re defending. Most people, I think, just see the world differently from you (you can say they’re in denial about how awful it is). I think it’s very rare to find an individual you literally thinks: I love that the world is so evil; I only wish it was more evil! BWAHAHAHAHAAA!!! People being in denial about the things you say can be infuriating, but that doesn’t make them evil.
Also, wanting to improve the world, or just accepting it because you don’t see any other option, is not evil either.
Ahh… But if you’re old, fat and ugly, YOURE probably hurting, or at least hurting others.
It’s like homelessness. It makes some people uncomfortable (hurt). So you get a home, then what happens?? You hurt all the people who think everyone should be homeless (their hurt)
In terms of your evil argument, I think it is blatantly obvious that this is all hurting people no matter what you do. So I can pour through all the books and find that nobody bothered to mention it. That to me is evil (intent) through omission.
In terms of what we can do … If people stopped defending this world thousands of years ago …, who knows where we’d be now?
I personally think we’d all be on different planes of existence through that much meditation on this truth.
That’s because of my experiences. But because not many have had those types of experiences, I have to pick up the slack
I refuse to accept anything about this world other than it has some nice ingredients.
I doubt that’s always the case with old, fat, ugly people. And besides, even if it is, my point is that you’re not causing any more harm by choosing celibacy.
I suppose the argument could be made that for every choice you make, or everything you do, there will be some who are against that choice or that action. All I want to say, however, is that this ought not be thought of as an all-encompassing law of reality–surely there will be cases in which you can make a choice to do something without hurting anybody. If I choose to blow my nose in private, that’s not gonna hurt anybody–even if there are anti-nose-blowers out there.
This only holds if those people who failed to mention it did so deliberately out of some spiteful or sadistic kick–as in: “HA! HA! HA! I’m going to write a book about how awesome this world is even though I know it’s absolutely horrible. BWAHAHAHAHA!!!”
Like I said, most people just hold different views from you. And most people–whether they’re writing books, teaching classes, or just engaged in conversation–don’t have in mind the question about whether or not this world is bad/evil and therefore should I say so.
But your point about evil intention through ommission is still relevant. It does address my point about what can be called evil and what can’t. Cancer, though causing great suffering and taking the lives of many people, is not quintessentially “evil” because it is just an unconscious, accidental disease. It’s horrible, sure, but not “evil”. But when you talk about the world being evil–do you mean the physical universe we live in or the people who make up our social and political systems, people with intentions, motives, selfish desires, personal goals, etc. ← Are we all evil because we can’t seem to live together in such a way that everyone is happy, that no one is ever disatisfied with anything?
Again, I think it comes down to what people know. If you could show them that creating zombie universes is easy as cake (and also explain to them what that means), then maybe you’d have a case to say that those who continue to accept this world are making backwards decisions (I still think calling them “evil” would be an extra stretch).
Exactly! I think everything turns on this point. I think you’ve had a rough life and some very esoteric experiences, which means most people are, at best, not going to be able to appreciate you, and at worst, going to mock and fight against you because of the prejudices and biases we have in this society.
Why should someone who’s old, fat and ugly… Just give up on sexual feelings just to fit in with society? Does giving up on a dream really make someone happier? What about the additional dream of not even being old, fat and ugly?? I think someone who has a choice, and still chooses old, fat and ugly, just likes to piss people off! To get a reaction (negative connotation) from people, revolsion.
Well… For body cohabitors; some may like picking and eating nose stuff as one of their favorite activities in life… So to use tissue or handkerchief pisses them off greatly! If you choose to appease them, you are pissed off… This is all called compromise - and not very acceptable when you think about it.
As for your stance against everyone being guilty to be defined as evil who defends this type of world system, or doesn’t realize this truth.
I think people who don’t realize this truth are evil oriented. I mean, it’s so obvious to the good. It’s like a serial killer who doesn’t understand why people are so mad at them!!! It cannot occur to them!! But they are still evil!!!
As far as dissatisfaction goes…
Maybe someone writes a philosophic zombie world for themselves that has elements of dissatisfaction because they enjoy it somehow. At least it doesn’t become another’s dissatisfaction who doesn’t want that!!
As far as the ease of construction…
I work on it every day, but I’m just one person …
I can guarantee you that if 7 billion people understood the problem and looked for escape, we’d figure it out really quick!
I’ve seen more amazing miracles (most of them hells!!) than I have fingers…
I know for a fact that if you get 7 billion people to say, “this is complete bullshit for this reason and completely unacceptable”. That we will actually move to a new plane of existence.
Problem is, most of these people are getting laid, they have their needs filled, so they dont seek to rectify the problem of needs.
I said it before and I said it again, I dont want to die and be reborn a happy person who eat-meat, I want to be born a tofu vegetarian who is unhappy, can’t stand happy people who torture animals. I want to blow off cruella devilles head with a 12 gauge shotgun then rape her dead corpse.
And you can do all of that in a philosophic zombie universe without bothering anyone else.
You can make every plant and animal a philosophic zombie… You can make all the reincarnation sequences philosophic zombies, you can make cosmic consciousness a philosophic zombie.
All you need are behavioral signatures…
Maybe you love your cat so much that you want it forever. Why should the cat have to put up with you or even being a cat forever and ever… Not a problem at all in philosophic universes because you can modulate behavior signatures without hurting anyone!!
Why would I want to marry a p-zombie? Im sure there are others who want to be hot lesbians with me.
You are an awful lot of talk but no evidence. Im supposed to believe that when I die I will get magic powers to make a utopia…where’s the evidence? And something about it seems odd…if we can just snap our fingers and make p-zombie worlds, why are we on this shitshow with no p-zombies? Its the old question of, why didn’t God just put us in heaven in the first place?
Your proclivity to want to marry is enough aggression to get you laid!
But that’s besides the point…
You can’t empathize with people enough to realize that real people hurt.
I’d rather know everyone is happy and be in a philosophic zombie universe than with reals and know that someone isn’t happy at some time because of my selfishness or need for approval from a real being to feed my ego.
You aren’t listening at all. Signs and symtpoms of your low empathy.
My thing was, if we have magic powers to create pzombie utopias, why are we on this shithole in the first place? Think about the paradox of it also, if this world isn’t already a Pzombie land, that means everyone is conscious, which means consciousness must cycle through every miserable wretch in this world before it escapes it. Also it means that consciousness will continue to cycle until every creature on this world is dead unless the consciousness escapes the gravitational pull of earth.
Second, why the hell would an asshole who gets sex go to hell for eternity? Seems like an injustice. Im well aware of how the process works, I know how females think, a guy comes on to you, and you don’t really want to hurt his feelings, but you don’t really want to have sex with him either, so he keeps trying and being more assholish and eventually you cave in to his aggressive demands. Im well aware of how it works, still why would they go to hell for eternity for such a minor crime?
In order to get somewhere else as a being, you must grow … It’s impossible to exist and not grow, just like it’s impossible to exist and not have otherness.
Not really a paradox there.
As far as hell is concerned… Aggressiveness getting sex causes all the crap people complain about, you become a hypocrite and are sent to hell
A desperate man being aggressive gets him hell? But a woman denying sex to good people doesn’t get her hell? Seems lopsided and sexist.
And you are still ignoring my question, I wasn’t talking about personal growth, I was talking about consciousness having to either cycle through all sentient lifeforms in the past and future, or leave earths gravity in order to go to other worlds.
Yes, because the biggest complaint men have is that only assholes get sex. If you send or let a female hell, you become a hypocrite and go to hell.
It’s called the female blackmail system for a reason silly!!
Bah! You can’t cycle through an Infinite number beings… And if you did, there’d be no you, just them!
The main target here, is personal happiness and fulfillment.
Shouldn’t the focus be on the direct deniers of personal happiness, rather than hating some lucky guys who one the lottery? You know who the direct deniers of personal happiness are.
Infinity in this regard, is a temporal constant. Since you are an infinite being, you can cycle through an infinite number of beings, it just takes time. Because once you are done through 100 million lives, 10 million more are born. That is, unless you either escape from the gravity of earth, or stop the cycles of birth. You know what I mean by “stop the cycles of birth.” It’s not a real paradox actually.
I don’t know. Why don’t you ask them? Point is, it’s a choice people make in real life, and presumably it makes them happy to do so (maybe it makes them feel closer to God, or something). It’s a choice that doesn’t hurt anybody, not even themselves.
Now you’re presuming to know how people feel, the motives behind their choices.
I think you’re barking up the wrong tree, you’re making an argument you don’t need to make (i.e. you’re shooting yourself in the foot). I think all you really need to argue, if I understand your ultimate objective, is that this world sucks and that if we had the power to make any of our wishes immediately come true, with 0 effort, that would clearly be the right choice. I don’t think you need to argue that literally every move we make ends up causing more harm than good, just that this world sucks in general and it’s never gonna be perfect, and that your efforts to create a zombie universe and, once successful, show us all how it’s done will benefit us all. I think you’d be far more likely to get support–at least on the point that this world sucks–if you just stuck to that in your argument… so it would benefit you, not just me, to let go of this particular point about every single move we make causing more harm than good.
^ That is, at least if your goal is to argue that our best option is to try to create zombie universes, or at least to support you in your goal to do so. If you’re really just angry at the world for how it’s treated you, and your agenda is to cast it all as evil so as to feel justified in flipping it the finger and rejecting it, then I can understand why the general “this world sucks” approach doesn’t work for you.
So now blowing my nose is evil? What if I do it in private?
Really, Ecmandu, let it go. ^ This kind of argument only makes you look foolish. Next you’re gonna tell me breathing is evil because it oppresses anti-breathing victims.
Listen to yourself–you’re saying that those who don’t know that creating zombie universes are possible are evil; that people who are trying to make a difference in the world, trying to make it a better place–make this world a better place–are evil. I said before that this was all relative. Yes, if you had the option to choose between this world and a perfect world, choosing this world would be questionable (I think it would still depend on one’s motives and reasons, etc.)–but we are making choices every day that make this world better than it could be–for example, I used to sponsor a child in Africa until I started becoming strapped for cash; now I’m a bit more financially secure so I’m looking back into sponsoring a child (preferably the same one). Now according to you, this makes me evil because the money I’d be giving that child to go to school is money that 1) some other child doesn’t get, thereby harming him/her, and 2) money that I have to give up, thereby harming myself. Why is this evil? Well, Ecmandu says, in a perfect zombie universe, you could give everybody infinite dollars with the wave of a magic wand (in fact, since they’re zombies, you wouldn’t have to give them anything), and since I’m choosing to sponsor a child (just one) instead of looking into the art of zombie universe creating, I’m evil. But in all fairness, I think what you have to consider is: am I making the right choice relative to not sponsoring a child at all?–i.e. chosing to make this world one in which at least this one child gets sponsored instead of a world in which he/she doesn’t?
Yes, that I can agree with.
Perhaps you’re right–I’m not one to say–but I know that this demands convincing, and convincing demands evidence and demonstration. I’m guessing the reason most people reject you and your ideas is that it sounds like a bunch of hocus-pocus mumbo-jumbo, and we’re biased towards rejecting and mocking that sort of stuff. But if you could show the world how the creation of zombie universe is done, that would go a long way towards changing people’s minds.
On this note, I have another question: in philosophy, a pzombie is typically defined as a person who’s exactly physically identical–particle for particle–to a real conscious, sentient human being. That being said, one should expect exactly the same behavior from a pzombie as from a real person. If you shoot a pzombie in the head and rape their corpse, you’ll still go to jail.
Yeah, good point. Part of the joy of making love to a girl is knowing that she’s getting off with me. If all there was was just the physical act of moaning and screaming and writhing, I’d probably just get ear plugs. But in real life, that’s a signal to me that she’s actually experiencing extreme physical pleasure, extreme physical pleasure that I’m giving her with my (hugely massive) cock (I mean, it’s massive).
In a pzombie universe, that would be missing… and I’d miss it.
Which brings up another point: you’re talking about all the harm and pain we cause to others, but there’s no mention of the pleasure. It’s true that in a zombie universe, we wouldn’t have to worry about harming anyone, but we’d also be giving up pleasing others, making them happy. Isn’t that sort of a loss?
Which bring up another point–if we’re so evil for not rejecting this world because it’s theoretically possible to choose a zombie universe instead, then aren’t you evil, Ecmandu, for not choosing a “pleasure” universe–i.e. a universe in which sentient beings experience only pleasure? And be sure to create a pleasure universe in which there an infinite beings who experience infinite pleasure for all eternity–otherwise you’re evil (and then talk to James about orders of infinity).
Gib!
I’m a bit busy for awhile, but just read your reply and am elated you understand as much as you do…
Be back later