on discussing god and religion

On the contrary, my understanding of dasein relates to the distinction that I make between the world of either/or and the world of is/ought.

If one is able to demonstrate that God does in fact exist then any particular individual might still insist [subjectively] that God does not exist; but it can be demonstrated [objectively] that He does.

Gravity has been determined to in fact exist. Any number of empirical/material phenomena can only be explained [with astonishing precision] because it does exist. A detailed understanding of gravity is a crucial component of, among other things, NASA’s space missions.

Still, that does not explain why it exist. Or why it exists as it does and not some other way. So, sure, a believer can then make the claim that this is God’s doing.

And then we can speculate further regarding the extent to which God created gravity as He choose it to be or becasue that is the only way in which gravity can be created.

But, again, that is rather far afield from the reason that I created this thread.

Okay, why don’t you create a thread in which this distinction can be explored in depth. Otherwise on this thread we would have to focus the beam on why we choose the behaviors that we do [re before and after the grave] from the perspective of the religious scholar or the theologian.

And I’m not necessarily opposed to that so long as eventually they come around to my own aim here.

To wit:

God in general. Or, as James S. Saint, might insist, the Real God in general. And, of course, the first order of business here is always to define our terms. And then to attach these definitions to a particular meaning that other words will then pile onto in order to substantiate one or another set of premises in one or another world of words.

Hell, we might never actually get around to Judgment Day at all, right?

Yes, “here and now” I believe what I do about these relationships. But “there and then” I believed something entirely different. And down the road that may well change again.

But all I can keep noting is how this particular exchange is far removed from the point I had in mind in creating the thread.

Which then takes me back to the exchange we were having on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=192063&start=75

[b]

Then we are back again to square one. Or, rather, to my square one.

This one: The gap between that which you have come existentially to believe is true in your head [here and now] regarding God and religion, and the ability to actually demonstrate why essentially all reasonable/rational men and women ought to believe the same.

Let alone how you would then connect that frame of mind to the frame of mind that revolves around particular moral and political issues you opine about in the government and society forum.[/b]

I don’t quite see “dasein” clearly but I intuit that what i experiences is "largely rooted in dasein.
As I said ~~ “I realize that everything which I had become from the beginning of my life’s journey was part and parcel of who it was who knelt there.”

There was a time when I would not have because it was such an intimate spiritual moment to me…God, myself and the stars. Now it is just myself and the stars but I will admit that at times some residual memories might come to me which make me look down that precipice a little but then I back myself up. lol
We don’t often want to share moments like that and there are people who would scoff at them. Why who knows? It doesn’t take away from the experience itself but as Oughtist once asked me “Why throw your pearls before the swine, Arc” lol
That’s not to say that when I remember those moments and the feelings which I am still capable of having from them - brain chemistry and all~~ they don’t conjure up some nice transcendent emotions in me but they’re just memories NOW.

I’m not so sure how to answer this but if someone has had similar experiences, IF, it’s plausible that he/she might have an idea of what the experience is or was.
As humans, don’t we all share similar emotions and human experiences insofar as the God experience goes? more or less, that is? Dostoevsky realized this and so some of his passages where Alyosha was concerned in The Brothers Karamazov – among many other writers.

“Consciousness is like a magical mystery show that we stage for ourselves inside our own heads” as Humphrey said in Soul Dust: The Magic of Consciousness". And it certainly is.

Of course, that doesn’t make the experience any less real - at least real to us ourselves.

No, Iambig probes the extent to which what one claims to have experienced can be demonstrated such that all reasonable and rational men and women are obligated to believe that the experience was genuine.

And then the extent to which the experience itself can be linked to the actual existence of a God, the God, My God.

Obviously: as a result of intense dreams or through the use of drugs or because of one or another affliction/disorder in the brain, we are able to imagine all sorts of experiences that turn out “in reality” to have unfolded only “in the head”.

Now, sure, in church or around the dinner table or at the neighborhood bar, it might be enough to relate the experience that you had such that everyone nods their head and agrees it is a manifestation of God — a “proof” of God’s existence.

But in a philosophy venue we are expected to be considerably more evidentiary in connecting the dots between that which we believe or claim to know is true “in our head” and that which we are able to demonstrate that others ought to believe or claim to know is true “in their head”.

Or so it seems to me.

It would be as though someone claimed to have had an experience in which they defied gravity yet was not required to demonstrate that in fact they had defied gravity.

You’re sitting in an apartment or hospital room looking at a computer screen. The only evidence that you are going to get is a bunch of words on that screen.

You have already decided that all methods of reasoning and philosophical “tools” are inadequate. You have decided that all words are inadequate.

Yet, you keep asking for people to use words and arguments to demonstrate something to you. You keep asking them for more words which describe their experiences.

And when you get those words, you reject them as inadequate - in your head - intellectual contraptions.

This sums up Iambig : “I know that no argument can produce an adequate demonstration. Give me your new argument.
… No, you didn’t convince me.”

Is this Iambig’s way of showing us that all methods of reasoning and all philosophical tools are failing? Maybe he thinks so but lots of people think that those tools and methods have done an adequate job. Instead, they think that Iambig subjectively rejecting these arguments because of his own inadequate thought processes.

He’s one person passing judgement on all reasoning and he finds it lacking.

Okay, so what? It’s been discussed more than enough for me. Moving on.

Yes, we are all ensconced existentially in a particular set of circumstances “here and now” pertaining to the manner in which we pursue philosophy. Or to the manner in which we have or have not had experiences with God and religion.

But if we come into a philosophy venue and argue that, in fact, we have had an experience that led us to believe in the existence of a God, the God, My God, we are still able either to demonstrate that this experience provides evidence that would obligate others to believe in the existence of this God [and His “scriptured” morality], or we are not.

Nothing changes there, right?

No, I keep asking people to connect the dots between the “world of words” that they subscribe to “in their heads”, and the world that we actually live in; such that the words they use in discussing their belief in God can be connected to something empirical, material, phenomenal, “out in the world” that we live in.

As an experience.

A world in which behaviors often come into conflict precisely because the words we use to embrace one particular God [or moral/political narrative/agenda] come into conflict with the words [and then deeds] of others.

Thus words here are always going to be only more or less “adequate” in performing this particular task, aren’t they?

Sure, if this is the way in which you construe our exchange. But an argument “in your head” regarding God and religion is either wholly in sync with the way in which the world is “in reality”, or it’s not. And you are either able to demonstrate that it is or you are not.

And then the next time you come upon a context in which your own moral values are at odds with the values of others, you can either successfully intertwine your belief about God – the one “in your head” – in the conflict to resolve it or you can’t.

And I agree that may well be the case. In fact, over and over again I note that my arguments here are just existential contraptions. No less so than others. In other words that, subjectively/subjunctively, I have manage to talk myself into believing that this…

If I am always of the opinion that 1] my own values are rooted in dasein and 2] that there are no objective values “I” can reach, then every time I make one particular moral/political leap, I am admitting that I might have gone in the other direction…or that I might just as well have gone in the other direction. Then “I” begins to fracture and fragment to the point there is nothing able to actually keep it all together. At least not with respect to choosing sides morally and politically.

…is true. That it is reasonable to think this.

As this pertains to the manner in which I explore the question “how ought one to live?” as this pertains in turn to delving into the relationship between the behaviors that we choose on this side of the grave and [re God and religion] the matter of immortality and salvation on the other side of it.

But then when I point out how this is also applicable to you, we are back to this:

[b]

Then we are back again to square one. Or, rather, to my square one.

This one: The gap between that which you have come existentially to believe is true in your head [here and now] regarding God and religion, and the ability to actually demonstrate why essentially all reasonable/rational men and women ought to believe the same.

Let alone how you would then connect that frame of mind to the frame of mind that revolves around particular moral and political issues you opine about in the government and society forum.[/b]

But now once again you are “moving on”.

I have had enough. I’m not going to respond to your posts. Take that to mean whatever you want. I don’t care.

That’s your prerogative certainly.

But I should point out that you have chosen that particular path a number of times before. Only to come back into the fray.

Why?

God knows.

Stupidity.

Either that or the growing concern that my frame of mind may well be applicable to you. That, in other words, over time, I may well succeed in yanking you down into that fucking dilemma with me.

Now, any number of objectivists have managed to convince themselves that this does in fact reflect the entirety of my motivation here. But it is not. Polemics aside, I am motivated far, far more by the hope that someday I really might come upon a frame of mind that does facilitate me in yanking myself up out of this godawful hole I have dug myself into.

And that’s before the part about oblivion.

iambiguous, I read your first post on this read and it sounds like you had to grapple with the same things I had to deal with when I was “choosing a faith” all those years ago, when I was around 12-13 years of age. I wanted an objective religion, but upon searching the Internet all I found were subjective opinions. I spent many days and nights seeking a faith that would “find me”. I just got more confused as I studied the main religions. Then I came across skepticism, later on. There was something that rang true for me. “Not all religions can be right, but every religion can be wrong.” After I saw that I pondered for awhile. I decided to become agnostic for a long time and later a Unitarian Universalist. UUs have very similar positions to the positive, objective things you say someone could develop. Unfortunately though UUism is also an extremely liberal-bias. Being a Republican/conservative and also becoming Unitarian doesn’t really make any sense. So I left the church. I’ve developed my own theology based on what I considered subjective-objectivism (that is, looking at real things in a subjective way). I’m pretty happy with my own findings. If I wasn’t trying to develop and cultivate my own religion I’d say I’m “spiritual but not religious”. I have my beliefs. Beliefs that are supported by scientific inquiry.

Many years ago I saw a neat cartoon in which a large rat, holding the hand of a small rat, was walking down the street when the rats espied a huge picture of Mickey Mouse on a billboard on a wall. The small rat said, “Look, Ma, there’s God!”
All human problems with some deity amount problems with themselves. If there were no problems with human justice, there would be no concept of an unjust God.

Then these people should not think about God or worry about God at all. They should solve their own problems.

Yes, some years ago an old friend, Carol Mays, introduced me to the Unitarian Church here in Baltimore. And I agree: Republicans/conservatives were very, very few and very, very far between. Especially back then.

On the other hand, I left the church because I became immersed in radical politics on the left; and these folks basically clinched it for me: That, as Mac from our MACV at Song Be suggested, religion [and God] are just opiates for the masses. Among other things.

As for the beliefs that you hold now, I created this thread in order for those who do believe in one or another religion, to connect the dots between their religion on this side of the grave as it informs their understanding of religion on the other side of the grave.

In other words, when you choose to behave one way rather than another [with respect to one or another conflicting good], how is this intertwined [in your head] with what you imagine your fate to be on the other side of the grave?

And how do you then demonstrate that what you do believe in your head “here and now” is that which all rational men and women are obligated to believe in turn?

Otherwise you are basically just saying “if you think about these things as I do then you are right, if not then you are wrong”.

And that’s objectivism.

On the other hand, I think that we can all agree that objectively rats don’t speak, and that Mickey Mouse is just a cartoon character. And not a God.

What of those problems that revolve around one of many possible “natural disasters” that have inflicted such cruelly brutal pain and suffering on millions upon millions upon millions of mere mortals [including children] over the years?

On insurance claims, they are called “acts of God”.

As for justice, says who? in what context? from what point of view?

Which is why I ask folks like you to describe an instance of justice – as this pertains to one or another conflicting good – and to note how their own behaviors in relationship to a particular context reflect the most [or the only] description of true justice.

As this pertains to their understanding of God and religion.

You missed the fun of the cartoon and its suggestion of anthropomorphism if applied to humans. I really don’t think a majority of rational people believe God is responsible for famine. flood, etc. “Act of God” is an insurance term used when no one can blame the disasters on humans.
Your entire thread is based on concepts of God as human. It is based on an untenable description of a God of the universe and does not reflect any such universal condition of love which could include God and Man. It reflects fear. which underscores man’s interpretations of justice.

Oh, I get the joke. And the part where we too are made in God’s image. But there is still the part [mine] where distinctions must be drawn between whatever particular references we make to God “in our head” [ironic or otherwise] and the extent to which we can demonstrate to others that what we believe or contend to know as true is that which all reasonable men and women are obligated to believe/know as true in turn.

Thus whether a majority of rational people believe that God is or is not responsible for creating a planet that manifests itself in any number of “natural disasters” [even extinction events], is something they can either show to be true objectively or they can’t. Is it all just what they happen to believe “here and now” is true “in their heads”.

Again, in a philosophy venue, the bottom line regarding substantive proof of what we do believe to be true must be considerably more rigorous than in other less exacting venues.

Or so it seems to me.

No, the entirety of this thread is aimed at providing those who do have a belief in one or another rendition of God and religion, to connect the dots between the behaviors they choose on this side of the grave and their imagined fate on the other side of it [re immortality and salvation] as it relates to their particular belief in God and religion.

Your argument here is [as always] hopelessly theoretical, conceptual, abstract. What on earth [with respect to love and justice and God] are you talking about?

As for “fear”, sure, with oblivion right around the corner, there is plenty of that. But then that’s the point of the thread. To draw out perspectives from others that might actually succeed in allaying that fear. Maybe even make it go away.

I’m just not able to do what you do: create all of these assumptions in your head about God and religion that do in fact manage to comfort and console you. Based on experiences that you are not able to convey to me.

Thus your assumptions are not realistic to me. All I know is that you believe them in your head and I don’t believe them in mine.

So, for all practical purposes here and now – God or No God – you win.

Then another comes along and says…

And, then, as with all the others Gods, we are left groping about for some way in which to resolve the conflict.

In other words, aside from how one comes to conclude “in their head” that a God either does or does not exist, how on earth can they successfully convince others to conclude the same?

It’s just that [as always] it seems far more reasonable that the obligation here rest on the shoulders of those who claim that a God does exist.

But even then [on this thread] I am willing to accept the existennce of God and skip right to the part where the dots are connected between God on this side of the grave and God on the other side of it.

My local Unitarian church had meetings with a socialist who wanted to run for my county executive’s position. He lost. Baltimore is so liberal that if I went to a Unitarian church there I would probably start evaporating. (joke)

The radical left are not pragmatic nor do they have any moral principles, save for egalitarianism. They are idealistic and don’t really see reality for what it is, only for what it could be.

“This side of the grave”? That is so archaic. What you mean to ask is based on behavior. You are asking people how someone’s religion affects their beliefs for their afterlife.

And don’t you mean subjectivism? Subjective means that is how someone sees something - from their subjective view points. Objectivism is the opposite - they see things the way they objectively are. Of course, pure-objectivism nor pure-subjectivism fully exists anywhere.

There’s billions of people with their own subjective opinions on ethics, beliefs, and rituals. There probably isn’t two people in the world who would think exactly the same on every religious viewpoint. There aren’t billions of religions, instead there are a few thousand, because when you start caring only about the central issue - nothing else really matters. For Christians it is, “do you believe in Christ”? For atheists it is, “do you believe in God?” And so on. Not everybody has to agree with one another on everything. If I even find one person who believes in my trinity of panendeism, henotheism, and theosis I would be very, very surprised.

Okay, choose a particular political conflict to illustrate your point. And, as for the radical right, their own idealism is almost always rooted in one or another denominational God, isn’t it?

Either God or, for many Libertarians and Objectivists, one or another intellectual contraption – political ideology – rooted in Reason.

You either believe in a God, the God, my God or you don’t. And, if you do, you are going to predicate the behaviors that you choose “here and now” on the manner in which you imagine God will judge them in order to maximize your chances of immortality and salvation “there and then”.

If that isn’t the fundamental function of religion “out in the world” what is it then?

With respect to God, each of us as subjects hold particular beliefs. In our heads. Now, to what extent are we able to demonstrate that what we do believe subjectively – as “I” – is in sync with the way the world is objectively. In other words, if another does not share your own beliefs about God you are able to demonstrate that he or she is not thinking rationally.

Okay, but what does this really have to do with the point of the thread?

Your “trinity” is either intertwined in the behaviors that you choose here and now or it is not. And the behaviors that you choose here and now are either intertwined with the part about after you die – there and then – or they are not.

And you are either willing to discuss this with respect to that which I construe existentially to be conflicting goods or you are not.

After all there are plenty of threads at ILP where you can discuss God and religion…epistemologically?

Moderates, center-left, center-right, minarchists, populists. They are less idealistic, more pragmatic, and they do have principles to stand by.

For me, religion is like guessing. I happen to make a very educated guess. I don’t believe you will be saved through your faith or beliefs but instead through human-intervention. The reason why people do the things they do is to build extropy. We are able to record audio and visual, and impending technology will allow us to record more things. It is only a matter of time before the conscious part of humanity can be transported into the digital realm. And that is how we, along with everything else, will be saved.

Sorry, I can get riled up pretty easily. I like talking about my theology, beliefs, etc etc etc.