Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Yes. Out of the mind comes matter, but whose mind and what matter (more aptly what matters)?

Mind is deceivable. That alone tells you the answer.

First, conceivable though.

I agree, however there are lots more necessary explanations for the above statement to make sense of it.

Agree with the above but there are more perspectives to it.

Long before the discover of the “observer effect”, even within the Scientific Framework, it is thought what is observed are things that are independent at they really are.
However, the discovery of the “observer effect” [as mentioned by you above] proved that our human interaction with the object has in influenced on what the object is.

The above of the human influence on the resulting perception is based on sense-organ elements.

However there are philosophers like Kant who argued that certain aspects of whatever is cognized at the conscious levels are influenced by elements [a priori Categories etc.] beyond the sense-organ levels in the inner depths of the brain and driven by our DNA.

Thus all normal humans will see similar things when perceived by the sense-organs but non-humans will not perceived the same thing as what normal human beings perceived. A virus within a cloud will not see an full apple but merely clusters of molecules.

Thus things are only defined when human[s] imposed the totality of their conditions [pre-existing & existing] upon it at the time of the process of cognition.

Note I quoted Kant’s Copernican Revolution in another post.

Nothing independent happened before any one was alive.

The point is it is impossible to make any human independent from whatever conclusions that can only be made by humans.

So what happened before anyone was alive?
Only a human can answer the above and no other living things [at least at the present].
The moment the human answer the question, is a human-made answer.
Thus the answer is interdependent with a human mind.

There cannot be any thing that happened or existed interdependently before humans existed.

Emmm … no. Logic and language do not work that way.

A monkey could have given the same answer and it still be true. Truth merely requires alignment with reality. It doesn’t matter which language is used, nor when any asserted facts were to take place. Logic allows for both prediction of future and of past. No one has to have existed in either case for the predicted assertions to be true. And it doesn’t matter who said them or even if they were intentionally spoken by a conscious being. A man need not be on the far side of the Moon to accurately state that there is dust there. Nor need there be a man present a billion years ago for a man to accurately and truthfully state that the Earth existed at that time.

This :

and this :

So nothing independent or interdependent happened? What??

This seems to be based on some absurd definition of the words ‘happened’ and ‘existence’.

Sure you can.
A human is walking along and a rock falls on his head and kills him. A landslide buries his body. He never saw the rock coming and nobody finds his body.
None the less, he is dead. That’s completely independent of what he thinks or thought. And it is independent of what any other humans think.

Yes, and this statement would also be right, if a well known scientist went to the far side of the Moon and said “I have evidence for the fact that there is no dust there”. Science has to do with two sides of its “coin”: theory (logic, language) and empirism (scientific practice, experience) - both connected with deduction and induction. In that said example they would have to go on with visiting the far side of the Moon and perhaps change some physical and chemical theories or fire the said well known scientist. :wink:

Thanks gentlemen, your participation has so far been a great pleasure !

A tickle for the matter-enthusiasts:

Einstein showed us that matter is just an emergent form of energy and energy itself is massless. Ergo: matter and mind (which is apparently an energy too) are interrelated. Attempts to separate them, cannot solidify matter, but can confuse/fragment mind.

They are in a kind of symbiotic relationship.
What can mind actually do without matter? without first observing the “real” world?
The potter needs its material to form ideas, to create, to shape.
What purpose would the senses have in total silent darkness?

The cheese really doesn’t stand alone. The mouse is in perfect harmony with it. …ready to grasp it.lol

I don’t think mind and matter are separate and if they were, what connects them? Something which is half matter and half mind?

In my schemata you have the simplest one thing of which reality primarily is, and that is the philosophers stone. Then you get information form in it, and that tells it what to be ~ informs it.
so your mind is a bunch of informations acting upon the primal fabric, the result is a thing which exists, but that existence is universally made with the same material [philosophers stone]. like the sandman we are raised from nothing and return to nothing, except that there is something else making information occur. So a process or something which processes, which makes things manifest from nothing. When we return to nothing that same eternal process is still there and remember, it is the thing which brought you into being such that you now exist.

Mind exists because all its qualities already exists in the original stone, you just need to tell it [info] to think and it will or not and it wont ~ like brains or rocks.

Einstein was a quack as well as quantum physics.

The rigid-body newtonian model is also pure quackery, we know now due to high framerate cameras and archer’s paradox. All is fluid.

I know nothing about metaphysics and quantum physics, but I know cows exist . . . . and strongly suspect you understanding of Zen and Daoist thought is crazy shallow.

My dog sees a large rock. He knows there is something there that he cannot walk though. It’s a real physical entity. So he sniffs it and pees on it to mark that he has been there. The same goes for us humans. We know there are things out there which we cannot move or change. What is important to humans and dogs is not that there are objects that are in themselves unknowable, but the pragmatic understanding of how we can use these objects. Our distant ancestors realized that rocks can be used as tools and weapons. And rocks can make neat jewelry.

Would you please enlighten us with your understanding of the attitude of Zen and Taoism regarding the relationship of mind and matter. Thank you.

Let me take a shot at it … and later Xunzian can clobber me over the head with his bat too. :slight_smile:

  1. Zen stems from Taoist thought.

  2. Taoist thought stems from the Tao De Jing.

  3. The Tao De Jing talks about mind and matter in Chapter 47

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This is why quantum physics should never be taught to followers of pop culture.

There are multiple (competing) interpretations of quantum mechanics–and by interpretations, I mean unprovable–and the idea that observation is required to determine the state of anything comes out of radical logical positivism, which was pretty popular in philosophy around the time when quantum physics was born; but now-a-days, physicists are a lot more comfortable defining “observation” as pretty much any particle interaction whatsoever–if a particle affects another particles, that’s an “observation” according to them–but old interpretations are clung to like hearsay.

^ I think this interpretation of quantum physics is a lot more reasonable. Things still exist in quantum states, but the fact that every particle in existence exerts some effect on every other particle means that these quantum states aren’t nearly as uncertain/undetermined as the original “observation” account would have it–everything more or less keeps everything else in a state of relative certainty/determination.

EDIT: and my answer to the thread question is: yes, mind and matter are interdependent.

I’ll allow it.

Safe!

CHEERS !