I don’t see how you guys can just drop words like ‘Anarchist’ and then even be on a forum? Why not just move to some farm or something somewhere and live our your days? I don’t see the use in sitting around hoping for ‘No government’ when that is… just fucking clearly not going to happen. Humans are organized. That is just a cosmic pattern that will never change.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-27-2013, 02:31 AM Post: #98
Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
Answer this. Fuck. I don’t see how you both can’t look at it like this regardless. All logic leads here. If you can show how commerce doesn’t need to happen, then I’ll drop this pursuit right now.
(05-25-2013 11:07 AM)Q Wrote:
Quote:
It is damaging because it co-opts the self-valuing mechanism toward ends not that the individual is not complicit in and/or is unaware of. Advertising inserts repetitions and fixation-patterns into the psyche, reorganizing desires, fears, ideas, perceptions around a single goal: to get that person to think-feel-act in a way that directly benefits the producers of the ads.
Yes. This is correct. That is to say, advertising is a crazy powerful force.
That is the specific reason why I want to try and change it. Right now, it’s too powerful, and the very act of selling is something that we can’t escape.
So, if we can’t escape selling, we have to change how it is done. That is what I am saying. If you can find me a way around the above, then I would love to hear it.
If you have some way where we don’t need to sell stuff, then let’s do that for sure.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-27-2013, 02:47 AM Post: #99
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: Advertising
My apologies. I did not realize the full extent of your depravity.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-27-2013, 03:14 AM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 03:15 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #100
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: Advertising
I will do you the honor of responding to your question, despite that you have wholly ignored my 7 focused questions to you.
I believe this is the one you want a response to,
Quote:
There will always be selling - start with that. I think you will find that a lot of what you said is irrelevant when you consider advertising is going to happen. The question is: how?
I have not ever claimed or assumed that advertising is “not going to happen”. I think you see my position through a false lens because this appears easier for you to understand, that I am trying merely to dismiss the unquestionable reality of the world of selling and advertising, as if these do not reach deep into the core nature of the human essence.
The goal of anarchy is not to undo what has already risen from the inevitable, the goal of anarchy is to produce alternatives, to widen the sphere of the possible. We oppose substance with substance, not substance with absence.
And when dealing with the “how?”, this is what FC and I have been talking about, if you are paying attention.
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
If you want to truly help subvert the modern reality of advertising, find a way to sell things that does not require an ad, a manipulation and distorted presentation.
I think avoiding full transparency is inevitable.
Anyone remember Tristan/XCZ? One of the most important things he said to em is that you if you want anyone to listen, you have to learn how to market yourself. You have to dress things up a little bit.
Like I keep saying, I would like to get rid of ads.
However, if that happens, then the selling cannot be transparent or it won’t be effective. People won’t buy. You can’t have a movie or website that is totally transparent. Just look at how people buy stuff - even the most ethical companies have to play the game because people sort of like to play games.
At the very least, it’s just boring if you don’t.
Money these days is just people viewing and talking with each other online. Advertising will shift to that, it’s just a question of how. What I am trying to do is get close to an evitability more so than create something totally new or put in a lot of work.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-27-2013, 11:25 AM Post: #112
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Maybe they don’t buy because the product, laid bare, is a fucking waste of time. This is what we are saying. If it doesn’t sell itself, it maybe shouldn’t be sold.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-27-2013, 11:27 AM Post: #113
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
That people have been trained not to be entertained by anything other than what they can be advertised into allowing themselves to enjoy is, I am starting to think, enough of a reason to to infiltrate and trick people out of it. So you are reeling me in. But the examples you have used of how advertising is already changing are not that, and seem more like refinements on the old guard technique.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-27-2013, 12:43 PM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 12:46 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #114
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: Advertising
Yes. 90+% of everything sold is either utterly useless or harmful. Advertising makes us want it. If the product laid bare isn’t marketable then either the product is worthless or people don’t recognize it’s value.
So your revolution can begin by establishing the standards of value by which the two are differentiated from one another. Thus letting the first type fall out of the (artificial) market and letting the other stand forth and become value-able in the (real) market.
Productive constructions of artificial or fabricated value still need something more or less substantial and grounded to rest upon. Even Nietzsche with his “great and terrifying masks” knew this. I say, use advertising against advertising. Make anti-ad ads, like what Adbusters does. Don’t refine the system’s tools, expose the tool as tool. Someone is bound to be able to profit off that, so find them/their product and sell it through the anti-ads.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-27-2013, 03:47 PM Post: #115
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RE: Advertising
(05-27-2013 11:25 AM)pezer Wrote:
Maybe they don’t buy because the product, laid bare, is a fucking waste of time. This is what we are saying. If it doesn’t sell itself, it maybe shouldn’t be sold.
What product? I’m not talking about a vacuum cleaner. Time to break out of this 1920’s Nietzsche paradigm. That was like a 100 years ago.
We’re not moving into, or will ever exist in some Marxist one-product-per-use society so I don’t know why you guys bother with that stuff.
I mean… be serious. If you want to talk about that, find Detrop in jail and pen pal with him. I’m looking for something that is remotely plausible. Some Soviet state is not plausible to me.
People want to have fun in life. I don’t know why you would even want to live in a society like that. It sounds boring as fuck.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-27-2013, 03:52 PM Post: #116
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RE: Advertising
You guys keep reiterating that I shouldn’t walk into the Devil’s playpen and start trying to change the entire game - OK, cool - but then you come up with this ‘Well we want everything to be some Soviet gulag commerce’ thing and it’s just like… is what actually your plan?
You will have to compromise that slightly if you want to have a hope at succeeding because you are looking to change ‘the game’ way, way too dramatically to ever hope to succeed.
My approach may not be the most ethically ‘pure’ but it has a snowball’s chance in hell at actually happening.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-27-2013, 03:54 PM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 03:54 PM by Q.) Post: #117
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RE: Advertising
I am sensing a whole lot of simply hating advertising. And I mean… I get it. I honestly do. I wouldn’t be saying this stuff if I didn’t fucking despite advertising in its current form.
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How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-27-2013, 04:05 PM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 04:06 PM by Q.) Post: #118
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RE: Advertising
Guys - this is our first hype thread in a while. I like it. Even if I had to get trolly lol
I am not bragging so much as demonstrating how advertising is required for attention in a given area.
There is too much going on for the fact of the matter to be enough. It took me saying something novel to push people past that threshold of interest.
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How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-27-2013, 05:19 PM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 05:20 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #119
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RE: Advertising
Wait, who said anything about wanting a Soviet gulag?
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-27-2013, 05:22 PM Post: #120
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: Advertising
An all-out war of anti-ads against the whole advertising system doesn’t sound “boring” to me at all. In fact it sounds a hell of a lot more interesting than the shit setup we have right now, with the proliferation of fake forms of meaning and value-as-cheap-fashion.
Not to mention the positive health benefits for the individual, relationships, politics and the environment if we were to cut out a huge chunk of the fucking waste that commerce produces.
RE: Advertising
I am saying the public doesn’t want complete transparency. I not saying that there should be waste/wasteful/cheap stuff.
If anything, I see those two things as somewhat diametric because I think artistic advertising is more efficient than just saying: “This new vacuum has these new features.”
Why regress back to the pre-Bernays period? That is what you are suggesting.
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How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-27-2013, 05:59 PM Post: #122
Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
(05-27-2013 05:19 PM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:
Wait, who said anything about wanting a Soviet gulag?
I tend to be somewhat dramatic. I love to take literary liberties because, well, I am a writer.
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05-27-2013, 06:22 PM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 06:22 PM by Q.) Post: #123
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RE: Advertising
“So have you figured out a way to work “The Wheel” into it?”
“We know it’s hard because wheels aren’t really seen as exciting technology, even if they are seen as the original.”
"He also talked about a deeper bond with the product - nostalgia - it’s delicate, but…it’s potent.
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05-27-2013, 06:23 PM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 06:24 PM by Q.) Post: #124
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RE: Advertising
“It takes us to a place that we ache to go again.”
“It lets us travel in the way that a child travels.”
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How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-27-2013, 06:29 PM Post: #125
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Bro, you have accused us of much projecting, so you are held to see it in yourself.
Now, listen, advertising is defined as the presenting of a product. If it’s something else, please blow my mind, and don’t use pretty abstractions like you accuse us of doing.
And read me like I mean it, without spite (without moraline Wink ).
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-27-2013, 06:34 PM Post: #126
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Advertising as free-form teasing…?
I can see why you are into the occult… I’m not sying don’t jump into the hell fire!!! By the gods!! I am saying please do,
If anything, I just want you to know that it is hell fire so that you can be prepared to deal with shit once you get there.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-27-2013, 06:34 PM Post: #127
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
Now, listen, advertising is defined as the presenting of a product. If it’s something else, please blow my mind,
Ah ha, but here it is:
It can’t be anything else, because that is so broad. That is what I am saying.
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05-27-2013, 06:35 PM Post: #128
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Dude, did you ever really let the significance of Beyond Good and Evil as a phrase sink in?
Beyond
Good
and
Evil.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-27-2013, 06:37 PM Post: #129
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
That was as far as defusing my appearance of judge and jury. I am a critic, and a colaborationist.
I said you are selling products. You said that is 1920 talk. I say show me how. Yo say I’m being too broad.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-27-2013, 07:01 PM Post: #130
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RE: Advertising
Let me sleep on it.
Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
It’s 1920’s talk because… this isn’t the 1920s. Like I said, what I am talking about with respect to ads applies to even this forum. Why not just have it all black and white with no quotes or any aesthetic consideration? Why did I color it like this, and behave a certain way? It’s all art. It’s all advertising. It’s all interconnected, and when you try to hate on one aspect, you just invariably end up hating on art.
Or that is how I see it.
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How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-28-2013, 07:18 PM Post: #132
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RE: Advertising
(05-28-2013 06:31 PM)Q Wrote:
It’s 1920’s talk because… this isn’t the 1920s. Like I said, what I am talking about with respect to ads applies to even this forum. Why not just have it all black and white with no quotes or any aesthetic consideration? Why did I color it like this, and behave a certain way? It’s all art. It’s all advertising. It’s all interconnected, and when you try to hate on one aspect, you just invariably end up hating on art.
Or that is how I see it.
The difference is that beauty does not advertise anything. Beauty becomes an advertisement with the addition of a vainity, insatiable longing, coupling with a desire. This is how philosophy emerges in a state of wonder, as Aristotle said, because conscience or morality/the good, in terms of a human kind of sympathy, bears firstly only the weight of itself and assumes a noble stature of innocence before depravity and lust. The proof is in the pudding. Philosophy is that sign of an arriving aesthetic upon the back of which things become as new, new desires, new lusts, new sympathies and powers.
No one is talking about going back in time to 1920s era, but in the modern world there exists the choice to aim oneself either toward that from which the creative impulse came, even if the aim is itself the child of this impulse and/or its “refinement”, or toward what alone may exist solely because the impulse exists, as a greater measure of its vitality, of a higher possibility.
We don’t want to get mired in the past. That is what we think you are doing.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-29-2013, 01:34 AM Post: #133
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RE: Advertising
I’m getting mired in Marx. You keep ignoring that point. I will keep bringing it up.
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05-29-2013, 01:35 AM Post: #134
Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
What you are saying has merit, but you’re taking it back to the Greeks.
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05-29-2013, 01:37 AM Post: #135
Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
as a greater measure of its vitality, of a higher possibility.
Please give me an example .
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05-29-2013, 02:55 AM (This post was last modified: 05-29-2013 02:57 AM by pezer.) Post: #136
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Me first, then you:
Art is the bringing up of impulses and drives.
Advertising is the presenting of a product (usually through art). If it’s anything else, blow my mind.
Go
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-29-2013, 05:46 AM Post: #137
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RE: Advertising
Marx
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05-29-2013, 06:01 AM Post: #138
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RE: Advertising
I could just as easily say ‘Advertising is the bringing up of impulses and desires’.
Selling stuff (online) is intractably connected to artistic endeavours. The only kind of art you are taking about would be someone in a cave doing it for no one else. No one does that.
If its online, it’s selling.
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How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-29-2013, 06:03 AM Post: #139
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Why can’t you say the words? You are presenting a product.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-29-2013, 06:05 AM Post: #140
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
And remember, I’m not making a moralistic point. I care fuck all if art dies tomorrow, today.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
RE: Advertising
Ok, fuck the pproduct. Now it’s me being silly. Youa re selling. We agree.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-29-2013, 06:07 AM Post: #142
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Does it not matter what it is you are selling when you are selling?
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-29-2013, 06:08 AM Post: #143
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Fuck that too.
Tell me, what exactly are you selling me right n-
Ok. I’m starting to get it…
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-29-2013, 06:09 AM Post: #144
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Yes.
What exactly are you trying to sell me right now?
If you can’t tell me, if you have to dance around it with art, I am deeply suspicious that I wouldn’t want it if I knew what it was. That is a point against advertising, not for it.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-29-2013, 07:22 AM Post: #145
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RE: Advertising
Yes I will say it: advertising is selling something. I don’t deny that.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-29-2013, 07:24 AM Post: #146
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RE: Advertising
Everything online is selling. Even this post. I want you to respond.
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05-29-2013, 08:37 AM Post: #147
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
The problem with selling is the end it denotes. Words for activity tend to include an end-game, and the end-game of selling is to exchange money for whatever. Is that the end game? Isn’t money itself designed to be only a middleman?
Is it the process itself that you are seeking to rejuvinate, change somehow?
Or is the reason you want me to respond not the money endgame of a website’s functioning?
Me, I am not here to sell anything. Maybe that’s why I constantly feel like I’m running into walls. I’m not here to buy, either. I’m here to criticize and collaborate. To exchange perceptions.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-29-2013, 08:39 AM Post: #148
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Philosophical and non-philosophical discussion does not function by the lose something, get something paradigm. It works by showing something and being shown something. The production of value happens inside the philosopher or non-philosopher’s head.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-29-2013, 10:16 AM Post: #149
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RE: Advertising
Right.
So I have concluded I cannot convey this idea to yours or my satisfaction. Not sure where we go from here.
Prob just to talking about something else.
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How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-29-2013, 10:53 AM Post: #150
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Q, we have stated our belief plainly and with detail. You have stated yours plainly as well, but have given precious little detail. Perhaps we can take it from there.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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Fixed Cross
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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:24 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
RE: Advertising
Or maybe if I lay out for you my fears and hopes here we can move forward.
My fear is that your project might be a sexy way to avoid the real work at hand, which is to break down the barriers of stupidity and advance human along its present potential.
My hopes are that advertising can be transformed in the way you are telling us it can be, or that, made smaller, it can act as another force in the field instead of the tyrannical mind-nanny it is today.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-29-2013, 11:08 AM Post: #152
Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
Dude we’re on page 15. I’ve stated the detail as much as I can. I am not holding out on you. It’s just that you guys keep asking for an example of an advertisement, but you refuse to accept my example, which is a movie or a website. Which one doesn’t matter. At all. I get the feeling you are convinced this will be solved by some example. It won’t, so I’m unsure why you guy keep asking for one.
It may be that I cannot explain this because I have not fleshed it out myself enough.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-29-2013, 11:54 AM Post: #153
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
I think that’s the case. I took your examples, they just seem to me like examples of exactly what I don’t want, what doesn’t seem to be what you are proposing.
Do flesh it out, don’t let yourself be dragged into some other person’s agenda.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-29-2013, 12:13 PM (This post was last modified: 05-29-2013 12:13 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #154
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: Advertising
Sure Q, if you define advertising as “to show someone something” then yeah, it’s all advertising.
But then again, in so doing all you have accomplished is playing around with mere semantics. I have been trying to go deeper, unfortunately you seem not to want to come along.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-29-2013, 03:21 PM Post: #155
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RE: Advertising
Dude, we’d get along a lot better if you just assume we’re all of around the same intelligence, we’re all willing, and we’re all more or less as well read.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-29-2013, 03:21 PM Post: #156
Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
(05-29-2013 11:54 AM)pezer Wrote:
I think that’s the case. I took your examples, they just seem to me like examples of exactly what I don’t want, what doesn’t seem to be what you are proposing.
Do flesh it out, don’t let yourself be dragged into some other person’s agenda.
You don’t want a website?
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-29-2013, 03:46 PM Post: #157
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
OK, talk to us about the Marx connection again. If anything, it seems to me that advertising just follows the cycle of monopoly of ideas. Is that what you want to work for?
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-29-2013, 05:02 PM Post: #158
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
I think you put too much stock in our shared knowledge. ChainOfBeing and I recognize intelligence by how that shit is translated, with each philosopher or non-philosopher’s art, into written word. If we seem like we are just trying to sound smart, it is because that is the only way we recognize smart.
We want you to tell us your plan, no refer us to the source theory that supports it.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-30-2013, 06:04 AM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2013 06:06 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #159
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: Advertising
(05-29-2013 03:21 PM)Q Wrote:
Dude, we’d get along a lot better if you just assume we’re all of around the same intelligence, we’re all willing, and we’re all more or less as well read.
On what basis would I justifiably assume any such thing?
You would rather get along than uncover truth?
Know that you ascribe pathological motives to my writings here which do not exist. I am concerned with truth and not with your, or my own, feelings. Do me the honor of being likewise motivated, if you are able. And maybe consider starting by answering those 7 questions that I put to you. Why have you not answered them yet?
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-30-2013, 06:06 AM Post: #160
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RE: Advertising
I will explain it.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
Basically, Marx says that all art, no matter what you think, is reduced down to socio-economic forces.
There is no “pure” art for Marx.
I think you can certainly attack this view, but others have and they haven’t faired all that well. I have written numerous times about how Virgina Woolf somewhat does disprove Marx indirectly, but thus far no one has touched on her reasoning.
You all just keep saying, “Yeah, pure art is possible.”
Is it? Unless you are alone in a cave?
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-30-2013, 08:08 AM Post: #162
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RE: Advertising
Whereas I wonder why Q has not answered Chains questions, I disagree with the idea that advertising is always selling something. That’s too narrow. I’m sure you all know the phrase “there’s no such thing as bad publicity”. Advertising is publicity, which means: making it known that some/thing/one exists.
And if you think about this deeper, practically - how else are you ever going to communicate about something that is of value to you, without advertising it? It’s usually impossible. You’re most of the time going to show, convey just a detail, a segment, a part of whatever it is you’re trying to draw attention to.
Selectivity is not primarily due to betrayal, deceit. It’s primarily due to lack of time and space, lack of attention-span, lack of brainpower, lack of opportunity to tell the whole truth. A good advertisement, in my eyes, is one that conveys an idea that in turn evokes the desire to find out the whole truth to which that idea pertains.
Q, you’re not one known to show the back of your tongue. Sometimes you’ll need to do just that to win people’s trust. So, sometimes advertising isn’t enough. Is it fair to say that right now what you’re doing is advertising advertising?
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05-30-2013, 08:13 AM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2013 08:15 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #163
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RE: Advertising
From what I read, they’re not saying that pure art (whatever that is) is possible, they’re rather not agreeing that advertising is art at all. The point is not that it’s impure art, but that it departs from a totally different basis.
But then we do get into a shady area. Art generally works to draw the attention to something - most generally and rudimentarily, to the mindset of the artist - and in case of much commercial art, to certain values, a certain lifestyle, certain impulses…
Concerning most of the questions philosophy can ask I have come to a pretty satisfying answer. But on “what is art?” I feel in my bones that I can not give a clear cut definition. Perhaps it is the question that needs to be addressed here, boring, age old and impossible as it may be.
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05-30-2013, 10:38 AM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2013 10:39 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #164
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RE: Advertising
Art is a process of maintaining fidelity to something, to truth, to an appeal of openness and to the cathartic creative act. Art produces a change in the artist and in the viewer of the art, art fundamentally changes the way that we see, think, believe, feel, value. Real art will fucking change your life.
Art is profound, whereas advertising takes the shortest route and is bent upon efficiency. Efficiency of manipulating the viewer to some end. Advertising is impossible without this desire to influence, whereas art can and often is done with no such desire to influence. Where art achieves influence it is often a secondary thing and perhaps not even intended by the artist.
Where advertising incorporates a more artistic approach it only becomes more like art and less like advertising. The middle-ground between art and advertising, where these overlap, are only the exceptions that most prove the rule, that most show the real differences between the two.
Art may become political, it may emerge from a political truth, but its aim is never only to influence the politics of something. Art is always done at least in part for its own sake, because of the cathartic need, the need for freedom, the creative spirit, and in obedience to some aesthetic or intellectual standard even if only implicitly. Advertising, to the contrary, must have this political intention, it cannot merely emerge from a political truth but must aim toward the political—influence is the only reason that any advertising is ever created. Not so with art.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-30-2013, 10:42 AM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2013 10:44 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #165
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RE: Advertising
In this way, we can see advertising as a more recent and distorted offspring of art. Advertising has taken art and removed from it the impulse to truth, the need for freedom, the cathartic effect, and the need to open up and maintain a fidelity to the void. Advertising therefore is the corruption of art toward ends which art itself may end up serving, but in its own way, and only as a secondary effect to its primary motive-cause. Advertising removes the core of art and uses the image, the form of it to ends anathema to art itself; art does not need to prescribe its own end, its own effect, rather art deliberately must abstain from doing so if it is to remain authentic, if it is to “groove in an aesthetic” and act as a disclosure of that which is concealed.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-30-2013, 01:14 PM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2013 01:14 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #166
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RE: Advertising
In removing the core of art while retaining its form and something of its impulse, advertising has both liberated self-valuing from any historical boundary, as well as given birth to the greatest monster ever known to mankind.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-30-2013, 03:04 PM Post: #167
Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
Advertising has taken art and removed from it the impulse to truth, the need for freedom, the cathartic effect, and the need to open up and maintain a fidelity to the void.
Again, we’re not in the Bernays era anymore. Not completely, at least.
I put it to you this way: do you think advertising has changed since the internet has hit?
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-30-2013, 04:09 PM Post: #168
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
(05-30-2013 03:04 PM)Q Wrote:
Again, we’re not in the Bernays era anymore. Not completely, at least.
In what way?
Btw, yes, I feel it has gotten more personal, like in that creepy ass show we all watched that one time with the guy living in the world sorrounded by screens. You know, the sequel to the pig fucking politician.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-31-2013, 10:22 AM (This post was last modified: 05-31-2013 10:22 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #169
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RE: Advertising
To be completely honest Q, I see no reason to continue engaging you further here. It isn’t just that you seem unable or unwilling to acknowledge or engage my points (or to answer the questions which I carefully constructed with the aim of furthering this discussion and getting to know your position better), but that you truly seem motivated by something other than honest disclosure of truth. I would say you have an agenda to push, but then again I don’t know you that well really. You may just be ignorant of what you are doing.
This is not a game to me, I am not here to play chess. This is serious, this fucking matters.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-31-2013, 10:53 AM Post: #170
Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
You think I am some agent provacateur or something? Lol you must be completely paranoid.
Nice. I like it.
As for this discussion, sure we can end it. I already said that a couple posts ago. I would suggest you guys read Marx. That is pretty key here and it doesn’t sound like that part is clicking.
In the meantime I will refactor this argument
Also if I am making a reference you do not get, just tell me. Instead of saying I’m not answering questions when the answers (or lack thereof) depend on the references.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-31-2013, 10:59 AM Post: #172
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RE: Advertising
You guys should put yourself in my position.
All I am seeing is “Art is like…moving people’s emotions, and stuff.”
I’m plenty serious but it kinda sounds like you’re giving me your personal definition for why art is. Let’s skip that and just use actual philosophical stances.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-31-2013, 11:01 AM Post: #173
Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
If you want to go with some Aristotlean virtue thing, then why cannot I bring up Marx, who came after and addressed all that?
Why can’t we move from Bernays era into a new one? Why are we being held back by you guys’ personal views that advertising in the 20’s is the same as now. It’s fucking not.