The world wants to imprison you. This is what the world “is”, no “conspiracies” needed. Take religion, politics, economics, morality, advertising, you name it. Various systems used to breed various kinds of human beings. Just because your intention is to remove some impurities and excesses of one of these system does not mean your aim is in any way ethical or good, or is not merely assisting the behemoth in its task to devour you whole. Remember, if it doesn’t need to chew quite so much, it’s that much less effort it needs to bother with.
Someone once said that true propaganda slips in without any resistance. And you have not yet defined what you consider to be the distinction between propaganda and advertising. You seem to be clearly against the one, clearly in favor of the other (your idea of it) so where do you draw the difference? Advertising for Coca-Cola has probably killed more humans on this planet than any conflict or war in human history, and probably generated more concentrated wealth than any great colonization and spoils of war.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-21-2013, 06:17 PM Post: #39
Q Offline
5151
Posts: 469
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 5
RE: Advertising
In the ideal, I mean.
It seems like being on the internet and advertising is the same thing in a manner of speaking.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-21-2013, 06:18 PM Post: #40
Q Offline
5151
Posts: 469
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 5
RE: Advertising
Quote:
Someone once said that true propaganda slips in without any resistance.
I am saying: let’s make this a good thing.
RE: Advertising
Quote:
And you have not yet defined what you consider to be the distinction between propaganda and advertising.
I thought I explained this.
(05-20-2013 10:38 AM)Q Wrote:
The difference is as follows:
Propaganda — Exploiting a known weakness or tendency in someone, or a group of people’s psychology.
(Proper) Advertising — Offering someone something that they may want, tailored to complement that psychology.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-21-2013, 06:21 PM Post: #42
ChainOfBeing Offline
Probationer
Posts: 178
Joined: Dec 2012
Reputation: 4
RE: Advertising
I asked you earlier here toward what end/s you aim, and you replied, “Just for the sake of doing it.”
What makes you think you are in any way qualified to decide what “good” is to be served here?
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-21-2013, 06:28 PM Post: #43
Q Offline
5151
Posts: 469
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 5
RE: Advertising
Why is art made, though?
Just for the sake of doing it.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-21-2013, 08:48 PM Post: #44
pezer Offline
Pothead Saruman
Posts: 800
Joined: Jan 2013
Reputation: 8
RE: Advertising
(05-21-2013 06:06 PM)Q Wrote:
Quote:
Advertising is sales, and I don’t trust a sales system based on the premise that it’s fine to make shit up to fit your intended message (in advertising, usually shitty primal ones deemed whatever by the oligarchic order), like it’s art.
How is it really different than art?
Art sells itself. Advertising sells X.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
Send this user a private message Visit this user’s website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-21-2013, 08:49 PM Post: #45
pezer Offline
Pothead Saruman
Posts: 800
Joined: Jan 2013
Reputation: 8
RE: Advertising
And X = Oligarchic Power Interests in the most brutal way.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
Send this user a private message Visit this user’s website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-21-2013, 08:50 PM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2013 08:51 PM by pezer.) Post: #46
pezer Offline
Pothead Saruman
Posts: 800
Joined: Jan 2013
Reputation: 8
RE: Advertising
Much art is sneaky advertising, and that is what perhaps is known as propaganda. (Interesting fact, propaganda is the word for simple advertising in Spanish, the term propaganda política being used for what the simple word is used by gringos.)
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
Send this user a private message Visit this user’s website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-21-2013, 08:55 PM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2013 08:57 PM by pezer.) Post: #47
pezer Offline
Pothead Saruman
Posts: 800
Joined: Jan 2013
Reputation: 8
RE: Advertising
Propaganda comes from the verb propagar, -anda is like a kind of “of the.” Propagar means to disseminate, pro- determinign action, movement, and pagar meaning to pay, to give something of value in exchange.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
Send this user a private message Visit this user’s website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-22-2013, 01:26 AM Post: #48
Q Offline
5151
Posts: 469
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 5
RE: Advertising
(05-20-2013 10:38 AM)Q Wrote:
The difference is as follows:
Propaganda — Exploiting a known weakness or tendency in someone, or a group of people’s psychology.
(Proper) Advertising — Offering someone something that they may want, tailored to complement that psychology.
It’s subtle, but it is there. I will give you an example.
(05-21-2013 08:48 PM)pezer Wrote:
(05-21-2013 06:06 PM)Q Wrote:
Quote:
Advertising is sales, and I don’t trust a sales system based on the premise that it’s fine to make shit up to fit your intended message (in advertising, usually shitty primal ones deemed whatever by the oligarchic order), like it’s art.
How is it really different than art?
Art sells itself. Advertising sells X.
This is why I see it as both selling the same thing.
[flash(0,0)]http://www.youtube.com/v/suRDUFpsHus[/flash]
RE: Advertising
Advertising can pull at your heart? No shit!
I pointed out the difference. Now I feel you are avoiding an answer you didn’t feel comfortable with.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
Send this user a private message Visit this user’s website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-22-2013, 06:31 AM Post: #50
Q Offline
5151
Posts: 469
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 5
RE: Advertising
The show itself is a commercial.
Mad Men isn’t selling anything other than itself, though.
It could all be like that. Seamless.
There isn’t a difference between art and advertising that I can see. Not in theory. Obviously in demonstrable practice, but I am not talking about that.
Search Member List Calendar Help
Current time: 08-02-2013, 10:09 AMWelcome back, Fixed Cross. You last visited: Yesterday, 09:40 AM (User CP — Log Out)
Open Buddy List New Posts | Today’s Posts | View Unread Posts | Private Messages (Unread 0, Total 143)
/ Overstanding / Health / Advertising
Pages (22): « Previous 1 … 4 5 6 7 8 … 22 Next »
Post Reply Thread Rating:
1 2 3 4 5
Threaded Mode | Linear Mode
Advertising
05-22-2013, 10:51 AM Post: #51
Q Offline
5151
Posts: 469
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 5
RE: Advertising
It seems like unless you are unfunded, all art is just a commercial. When you really look at it like I am trying to.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-22-2013, 11:38 AM Post: #52
pezer Offline
Pothead Saruman
Posts: 800
Joined: Jan 2013
Reputation: 8
RE: Advertising
Listen, I get it. You want art to not be some pointless thing, to have weight. You see advertising as the way to do that. I’m saying that’s a trap. Undoubtedly, taking a trap head on is often the best way to approach it, I’m just saying that if you make your weight out of these pre-made societal structures, you are taking on a whole bunch of “lizard kings rolling in the back, how 'bout that?” I’m saying fuck that, let’s rebuild. In the end, if you need help for your wacky shit, I will give it. Likewise, maybe you will help me along my more nihilistic path.
Difference is the pathos of true evolutionary process.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
Send this user a private message Visit this user’s website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-22-2013, 05:11 PM Post: #53
Q Offline
5151
Posts: 469
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 5
RE: Advertising
Maybe this is one of those ‘is Gotham beyond saving’ things, but I’m not totally against society. Just the bankers and corporations that are tying to pull a fast one.
Plus, when I really think about how to affect large-scale change, it’s one of those infiltrate from the inside plans always. I’m just not the nihilistic type.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-22-2013, 06:06 PM Post: #54
pezer Offline
Pothead Saruman
Posts: 800
Joined: Jan 2013
Reputation: 8
RE: Advertising
So what is the approach of your vision to reinterpret advertising? Can it be compatible with non-government?
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
Send this user a private message Visit this user’s website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-23-2013, 02:01 AM (This post was last modified: 05-23-2013 02:03 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #55
ChainOfBeing Offline
Probationer
Posts: 178
Joined: Dec 2012
Reputation: 4
RE: Advertising
There is a huge difference between art, in particular inspired/authentic art or “art pour l’art” and advertising. Advertising wants to manipulate to sell something, to insert lies inside the mind toward some goal that has nothing to do with whatever is good or bad for the victim of the ad. Art rather wants to show and disclose truth, even if this truth is painful or harmful. Often it is not, and even so disclosing suffering and harmful truth through art will lead to mental and emotional uplift and increased self-consciousness. The perspectives and experiences created by art are done from and for the interests of truth, whereas those created by advertising are done not in the interest of truth but in the interest of control. Q, what you may be seeing is the degree of overlap between truth and manipulative control, of course there is some overlap here. But the real spheres of art and advertising are separate, and only intersect a little in the middle, when advertising wants to mimic art to make its control more effective.
This is why advertising is no different from propaganda. Advertising is not art, it is propaganda, trying to sell something regardless of what the victim needs or wants. No one forces art at you, or its message, these must be approached actively and openly and with some conscious intention. Not so with advertising, which shoves its message and image upon you rather you want it or not.
Art cares about you, and values truth. That is why the art exists at all. What does advertising care about and value? Profit, to control and manipulation to create consumers of products. Q, you want to make advertising more like art in this respect, but you cannot succeed, all you can do is give advertising better tools with which to better mimic art, thus making advertising even more effective and deadly. Further contributing to human’s inability to tell the difference for themselves.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-23-2013, 05:52 AM Post: #56
Q Offline
5151
Posts: 469
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 5
RE: Advertising
We’re all online…
Is the type of art you talk about possible anymore?
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-23-2013, 05:53 AM Post: #57
Q Offline
5151
Posts: 469
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 5
RE: Advertising
Think of it in a Marxian sense.
It’s all money.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-23-2013, 06:44 AM Post: #58
ChainOfBeing Offline
Probationer
Posts: 178
Joined: Dec 2012
Reputation: 4
RE: Advertising
Surely you are not claiming that real art is not being done anymore.
I would not even know how to respond to such an absurd claim.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-23-2013, 10:33 AM Post: #59
Q Offline
5151
Posts: 469
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 5
RE: Advertising
Sure it’s being done offline in caves maybe.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-23-2013, 10:52 AM (This post was last modified: 05-23-2013 10:52 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #60
ChainOfBeing Offline
Probationer
Posts: 178
Joined: Dec 2012
Reputation: 4
RE: Advertising
Today even artists using traditional media like canvas put a lot of their work online. Also people create new digital art, just for the sake of art and not because it is part of any ad campaign.
I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here, it seems Pezer was right that you are just trying to avoid an uncomfortable reality.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
« Next Oldest | Next Newest »
Pages (22): « Previous 1 … 4 5 6 7 8 … 22 Next »
Post Reply
[-]
Quick Reply
Message
Type your reply to this message here.
Signature
Disable Smilies
View a Printable Version
Send this Thread to a Friend
Subscribe to this thread
Forum Jump:
User(s) browsing this thread: Fixed Cross*
Contact Us | Natural World Order | Return to Top | Return to Content | Mobile Version | RSS Syndication
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2013 MyBB Group.
Search Member List Calendar Help
Current time: 08-02-2013, 10:09 AMWelcome back, Fixed Cross. You last visited: Yesterday, 09:40 AM (User CP — Log Out)
Open Buddy List New Posts | Today’s Posts | View Unread Posts | Private Messages (Unread 0, Total 143)
/ Overstanding / Health / Advertising
Pages (22): « Previous 1 … 5 6 7 8 9 … 22 Next »
Post Reply Thread Rating:
1 2 3 4 5
Threaded Mode | Linear Mode
Advertising
05-23-2013, 11:04 AM Post: #61
Q Offline
5151
Posts: 469
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 5
RE: Advertising
Lol
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-23-2013, 12:42 PM Post: #62
Q Offline
5151
Posts: 469
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 5
RE: Advertising
What do you guys say to the Marx point?
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-24-2013, 08:51 AM Post: #63
Q Offline
5151
Posts: 469
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 5
RE: Advertising
Cause it’s a pretty old argument.
I am not the first one to look at art critically. I’m not the first one to call into question this Dreamboat conception you have of it.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-24-2013, 09:44 AM Post: #64
Fixed Cross Offline
Neophyte
Posts: 466
Joined: Dec 2012
Reputation: 8
Warning Level: 0%
RE: Advertising
Dont bitch around, Q has hold of the most vital part of Earthly power… And he wants to humanize it, naturalizr it. Superhymanize, perhaps. All of us already know the power and the downside of that. Q is looking for an upside.
There is none’ is not a vital answer.
Send this user a private message Visit this user’s website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-24-2013, 12:10 PM Post: #65
Q Offline
5151
Posts: 469
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 5
RE: Advertising
I have failed to really convey the entirety of this, but it is actually a cynical enough approach for you cynics. I recognize the underlying drives in people (and masses), and I am looking to use it.
Let’s drop the aesthetics talk and just recognize that for a second. With Netflix, YouTube, and just the net in general, there is a marketing/advertising revolution occurring.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-24-2013, 12:49 PM Post: #66
Fixed Cross Offline
Neophyte
Posts: 466
Joined: Dec 2012
Reputation: 8
Warning Level: 0%
RE: Advertising
Let’s advertise the future.
Send this user a private message Visit this user’s website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-24-2013, 12:52 PM (This post was last modified: 05-24-2013 12:57 PM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #67
Fixed Cross Offline
Neophyte
Posts: 466
Joined: Dec 2012
Reputation: 8
Warning Level: 0%
RE: Advertising
coming soon:
THE FUTURE
Get tickets NOW at NWO
It shouldn’t be hard to top that pitch. But it’s going to be hard to pitch it so that humanity will attain the state of mind conductive of a future we can approve of.
Send this user a private message Visit this user’s website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-25-2013, 01:18 AM (This post was last modified: 05-25-2013 01:21 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #68
ChainOfBeing Offline
Probationer
Posts: 178
Joined: Dec 2012
Reputation: 4
RE: Advertising
This so called great power is the tyrannical manipulation and subvert control that reduces man to a passive consumer, an unthinking zombie. The argument of course can be made that man has already been reduced thusly, and who is to say that even before the advent of advertising that man was not in such an unawakened state? (Of course he was). But, my concern here had been with the telos of this intention to grab this power, to change it, to apply it. Toward what ends do you aim?
Merely playing with this power for the sake of play, for the fun of it, represents the lowest kind of aspiration, like that of a child. Intending something “good” only means one has matured slightly if there is a firm understanding of what “good” really means, and of course even if this is the case one is still but a dangerous and ignorant adolescent if one has no real knowledge or skill with how to apply a method to direct and use this power. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as we know.
I was interested to discover the motives behind the aim. More so, too, to discover the source and substance of these motives, and rather they be informed by any means and maturity regardless of their “goodness”. One only need look to the Stanford Prison Study to learn mankind’s natural inclination to “good will” under having been granted near-absolute power over his brothers. No “natural” will can serve us here, not where the direct, potent and often invisible manipulations of mankind are concerned. Neither will a will to power serve us at this juncture, contrary to what Nietzsche wrote. Nietzsche did not live in an age where the tools and weapons were so easily able to be picked up and wielded by quite literally anybody.
What we have now is all out warfare of ideas, control, dogma, brainwashing, but unlike in the past many “uninitiated” masses of men now play the game. As I wrote, they are made to kill each other without any need for a third party. You are so eager to jump into the trenches as get your hands dirty with them? I would rather undermine the system as a whole, I would rather cultivate something worthy of going beyond this merely animal hell, than deceive myself that I can play this game as good or better than those who have been mastering it for the last 80 years.
First, I propose we analyze a series of essential questions concerned with refining not only our sight but also out taste, from both directions, if indeed your will is to play the game on their own terms. Like Pezer I am more of an anarchist here, but since you are set on your path, let us try and cull something of greater potential from this path.
- upon what do you draw when crafting your “improved” ads?
- what is man’s relationship to the ads you create
- for whom do you work/receive pay in creating ads?
- do you have mechanisms in place to evaluate the effectiveness of your ads?
- if yes to 4 above, what are the standards you use to evaluate effectiveness or lack of effectiveness?
- where do you most realistically see man in 50 years from now, relative to what you think the potential is for your advertising power to contribute toward this future?
- where do you want to see man in 50 years from now, relative to what you think the potential is for your advertising power to contribute toward this future?
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-25-2013, 06:01 AM Post: #69
Q Offline
5151
Posts: 469
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 5
RE: Advertising
Quote:
Merely playing with this power for the sake of play, for the fun of it, represents the lowest kind of aspiration, like that of a child.
FX, tell him.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-25-2013, 06:04 AM (This post was last modified: 05-25-2013 06:07 AM by Q.) Post: #70
Q Offline
5151
Posts: 469
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 5
RE: Advertising
As for the rest, as I have said, it’s not about the content so much as the relevance of the ads.
You keep missing my point. It’s not about what I am writing. It’s about changing the method of distribution so you don’t have the situation where people are zombied through ads they don’t care about.
The stuff I said about wanting to manipulate people’s minds, just forget about. It’s true, but those are not my aspirations. I, as a culture critic, have come to just see most people as wanting to be manipuated.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
« Next Oldest | Next Newest »
Pages (22): « Previous 1 … 5 6 7 8 9 … 22 Next »
Post Reply
[-]
Quick Reply
Message
Type your reply to this message here.
Signature
Disable Smilies
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Tower
Tower
Posts : 1237
Join date : 2011-11-09
PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:14 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The basic disagreement, however, is that I am looking at the nature of advertising as it IS, right now in this world, and you are looking at the nature of what it could be through your idea of how to alter its content, and perhaps its form as well. I have yet to see any specifics on how Q or yourself would modify advertising to these ends you speak of. In fact, this was the whole point of my asking these following questions of Q, that I assume the potentiality of your aim and thus am interested to see rather or not Q is worthy of this potential. You will notice that these questions I asked of him have so far gone unanswered.
Fair enough. I’d like to add that I see the “as is” in a wider frame, but that follows from what I’ve written above.
Let me try to answer the questions as I see fit.
-
upon what do you draw when crafting your “improved” ads?
-This is a bit general, not quite sure what you mean. -
what is man’s relationship to the ads you create
-His libido is activated and stirring his mind. -
for whom do you work/receive pay in creating ads?
-For no one, the ads aren’t made to make money. They’d have to be a ‘pro bono’ thing for starters. Eventually organizations and companies that have interest in them might jump in - organizations that work to advance health and sanity, break the monopoly of disease and madness. -
do you have mechanisms in place to evaluate the effectiveness of your ads?
-Only observing a changing mindset in the environment where they’e disseminated would count. -
if yes to 4 above, what are the standards you use to evaluate effectiveness or lack of effectiveness?
-People taking control is the only mark of effectiveness. -
where do you most realistically see man in 50 years from now, relative to what you think the potential is for your advertising power to contribute toward this future?
-He could just become a total slave, schizofrenic, torn between libido and conscience, between passion and reason. This means a resentful man, hating what he is, unable to address the cause of what he hates about himself because it is what fuels all his actions. -
where do you want to see man in 50 years from now, relative to what you think the potential is for your advertising power to contribute toward this future?
-He has somewhat bridged the gap between his libido and his mind, meaning he is less able to be manipulated through his libido. Meaning: he has been trained somewhat to ‘test the origin of the stimulus’.
Quote:
Who owns the media through which you plan to advertise your counter-movement against these assholes? The assholes own it. Nearly every media outlet that has any viability is controlled directly or indirectly by vested interests. So how do you plan to fight the system when the system has the ability to censor, repress, edit or shut off completely your own content? I see the problem of over-centralization of global multinational power getting worse with time, not better. Monopolies are more common than ever, especially in the media world.
Honestly, I simply refuse to be certain about what I do not know. The ‘machine’ is at this point still manned by humans, and these are all liabilities, uncertainties. Millions of people man the various machines, and all of them can be influenced.
Quote:
Maybe you plan to start small, the local paper, a Youtube channel, maybe start a blog or your own website like NWO. Sure, that’s great, I honestly say you should go for it. But I would ask you to as honestly consider how much of an effect you really think this is going to have in a world with Viacom, Time Warner, Disney, CBS, News Corporation, Comcast, Facebook and Google controlling 99% of the market. And as I said, I see it getting worse, not better.
The biggest direct audience (as opposed to repeated airings) I’ve had is a show on Dutch national television. It was the thing about Islam, which was quite simply an advertisement for an agenda I had chosen. I may no longer agree with that agenda but it was wholly conceived by me and undiluted. When the company began trying to dilute it, I quit. That lasted for about three months.
I’m saying basically you can get around company agenda if you’re smart enough to camouflage the effect/intent with something that appears attractive in general, that ‘sells’.
I do not see a monolithic conscience of oppression - just a general trend. The trend, I believe, can be broken. Gradually, bit by bit and perhaps only for segments of the population. Doing this is ‘fun’ - that is the magic ingredient why it could work - it is not a morose, grudging undertaking, but something that would become addictive fo r an increasing number of people.
Just like life is addictive, ‘stupid’, stimulated by libido and confusion.
Quote:
So I guess I am not disagreeing with your intention, but I want specifics as to how you plan to implement your goals. For better or worse I am incapable of entertaining impossible or unrealistic hope. Believe me, I have tried many times, and failed miserably. I am at heart a bitter pragmatist, despite that the aspiration of my theory reaches for the stars. I want truly to believe in your power here, but until I can see something convincing, rational and reasonable, I have no choice but to see it merely as fruitless fantasy.
Very fair. And I can not prove it to you. I have some very specific plans but I am not going to write them down here. It comes down to the fact that, with what man is able to do today, I see vast potential for attainable glory, sanity and upward motion, and think I discovered some of the keys to such a movement. I would need a significant bit of capital to really get this off the ground… but I am far from hopeless in this regard.
Quote:
Again, why has Q not addressed my seven questions? These more than anything get to the real heart of the problem here. I want to see the answers to those questions because it will tell me a lot about the nature of his ‘struggle’.
They’re difficult questions, for sure.
Quote:
Advertising inserts repetitions and fixation-patterns into the psyche,
Quote:
Well this is what advertising is, at heart. It is manipulation designed to sell something.
It’s a manipulation designed to draw the attention, to fixate the self-valuing on something it thinks may add to it. Perhaps the most dangerous tool there is, yes. But does nature itself not advertise? A female praying mantice advertises sex but sells death. It is not a new phenomenon, and in many cases it works out better than for the male praying mantice.
Quote:
This differs from education in the following ways: Education intends to produce change through rational presentation of accurate information. Education treats the recipient as a rational being with the ability to learn truth if given access to all the relevant facts on a matter. The goal of education is to produce truth, accurate information, whereas the goal of advertising is to alter behavior in a way that benefits the makers of the ads. Granted, a lot of education has become propagandized, but this only proves my point about the difference between education and advertising.
Under no circumstances will I say that advertising must take the place of education, or can assimilate its function. I want advertising to steer toward the sort of mindset that values clarity.
Quote:
I argue that what you are doing is not creating advertising, you are creating art that is intended to educate. This is noble. Your art is very different in nature from advertising, then.
If you intent to use unconscious manipulation to achieve your ends, all you are doing is weakening those whom you intend to strengthen. You cannot treat a human being like a domesticated pet and expect it to experience some sort of intellectual or spiritual uplift. You cannot expect a mass of mindlessly passive drones to be anything but a mass of mindlessly passive drones, no matter what high level of noble content you intent to shove into their heads.
The passivity is bred by separating what JSS calls awareness of hopes and threats from actual hopes and threats. But this is not implicit in the method of advertising. It’s a chosen course.
As man is imperfect in the literal sense, -incomplete - he continues to require ‘agents’ to perfect himself, or to advance. Do you agree to this?
Quote:
May I see some examples of the ads you have created?
I never valued any of them enough to keep them - they were all for the tv station I worked for. I was usually given the assignment to produce the ads and promo’s - it is a government funded station with no real commercial interests, so I was given a lot of freedom and the content sold was really very harmless. They would often rely on me to make harmless things look ‘sexy’ or at least suggest some kind of thrill.
Then I did some advertising of projects like the film “We feed the world”, basically a campaign against genetically manipulated foods, and for some other non profit, idealistic projects, trailers, basically. Many of the ‘thousands of ads’ I made were trailers or promo’s for other material. I rarely made ads for real ‘products’, although I did create ads for things like bars and clubs at one point.
All of these things don’t sell anything that’s not there. I developed a lot of ideas for product-ads, some of which were actually used later on for these products (it’s very strange, it’s like when you think of something it gets ‘out there’ and gets picked up - I’ve had ideas for movies that would appear, diluted, in cinema’s a couple of years later).
It’s safe to say that I was exaggerating my output - in most of these thousands of ads/promo’s for the tv station I just did the editing - but that is where the desire is created, and that is what I was occupied with. I have a lot of potential in this field - but since I will immediately vomit once I find myself in the process of professionally telling an unwholesome lie, this potential doesn’t fit the machine.
For this reason (the potential) I relish in the thought of Q’s intention. It is a theme that has been on my mind for more than a decade. I very vividly see the kind of future I would like to advertise. But I am not in the position to do that just yet - I only want to advertise it if I have the potential to realize at least part of it.
Quote:
Quote:
In a blip: the future is not poisonous.
Please share your evidence/reasons with me. I will be completely honest here, I have seen absolutely no reason to agree with you on this, “the future is not poisonous”. I want you to convince me.
There’s the thing - I can not possibly provide a factual basis for this. I can only create the ideal, as a point in time for man to orient on - a new star to navigate by. to even just allow for the direction, to allow man to make certain steps - to open up a ‘valency rhizome’ simply by disclosing certain yearnings… to connect the libido to truly wholesome perspectives… all of this I see embedded as potential in the craft of advertising. But I certainly agree that another name may be appropriate to distinguish it from ‘selling’.
Quote:
Quote:
The Greek temples were advertisements for the imagined Gods. These Gods compelled people to try to live up to superhuman standards.
Yes, and the deception led all the way to Christian decadence, and necessarily so, and continues to this day. No doubt that we owe tremendous debt to the Greeks, but they had no choice except to mystify conscious experience because they were the first to discover it, they had to make use of the tools that were laying around. Are we still stuck in their deplorably small reality? No, we have inherited an entire mass of culture and tools with which to engage the mind directly, honestly and openly. That is all I am asking for. If this is how you view advertising then we are not disagreeing here, except on the fact that I do not believe advertising is capable of directly, honestly and openly engaging the mind.
I agree - it only engages the libido, it produces drives. What I aim for is that the libido is engaged toward engaging the mind.
It’s like what JSS proposes for a film about RM. The narrative must ‘seduce’ the viewer to consider the logics.
Quote:
You are drawing the distinction between education and propaganda in a very concrete and “deep” way, which I admire. But I have no reason yet to see how this distinction which you draw bears a resemblance to reality as we know it. What makes you think that your sort of advertising will be more effective than the current form of manipulation, brainwashing and death?
Not more effective, just also there. Thus reducing the net effect of the other type.
Quote:
I believe that the instrument and the end-result are intimately connected. Why has the modern world of the last 100 years differed so drastically from what has come before, if advertising is merely, at the level of instrument, no different from education or art? I think the instrument is very, very different.
If you want to revolutionize advertising in the way you state, this is an excellent goal. I do not dispute this. But if you believe you can revolutionize it from the inside, making use of the very same instruments and media and distribution systems as currently push the global advertising insanity and death-machine, I entirely disagree. I also disagree that your own counter-movement, however you plan to carry it out, is able to pose any serious threat to the established order, but this is only because so far I have seen no evidence to make me believe otherwise.
Have either you or Q given real concrete examples here yet? Maybe I missed them, I am very interested in seeing specifically what sort of “advertising” you and Q mean. Again, the questions I designed for Q to really target the substance behind these claims have so far gone unanswered.
I suppose that I am at heart a little more hopeful and optimistic about man and his potential future - but just a little. In the end I think it’s going to be harsh awareness, cataclysm and scientific/philosophical advancement that truly breaks new ground for new health. But since I already am very harshly aware and a scientific philosopher, I consider myself to be in a position to begin advertising my perspective.
Send this user a private message Visit this user’s website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-26-2013, 04:16 AM (This post was last modified: 05-26-2013 04:18 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #86
Fixed Cross Offline
Neophyte
Posts: 466
Joined: Dec 2012
Reputation: 8
Warning Level: 0%
RE: Advertising
The idea is to create a gateway. What’s behind that gateway has already been established. I think that the models of thought we (notably you, JSS, I, Parodites) have brought to each others awareness in the past two years or so is truly worth more than just a little hope and ambition. In fact I find it very hard to even muster a feeling of doubt about the power of any of it. It is this power that I want to ‘advertise’ - as all that drives man is his will to the feeling of power, to bring up Sauwelios’ most adequate contribution to Nietzsche.
And yet as Q says, the content can be conveyed to a good extent in its presentation. In fact, that will be the real ‘revolution’ in advertising - having it convey a seductive truth, rather than a seductive lie.
Send this user a private message Visit this user’s website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-26-2013, 06:24 AM Post: #87
Q Offline
5151
Posts: 469
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 5
RE: Advertising
Quote:
having it convey a seductive truth, rather than a seductive lie.
Love it.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-26-2013, 06:31 AM (This post was last modified: 05-26-2013 06:31 AM by Q.) Post: #88
Q Offline
5151
Posts: 469
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 5
RE: Advertising
Now, having said all of that: Google Glass is crazy.
I am writing an article about all of this that will explain it better, but suffice it say I have seen this thing coming years ago (I thought it would be Apple because at the time I saw them as move inventive) and now that it is here, things are starting to really get nuts. They know where they want to take this thing. The year of ‘testing’ is to dissolve the laws that stand in the way of them bulldozing privacy. You wanna get nuts? Let get nuts.
youtube.com/watch?v=d-MtW7hbzWk
I’m honestly not sure what to say. Eventually, there will be that line in the sand. There will be the ‘purists’ and the borg. lol…“hey sexy. Why don’t you take off your HUD and let’s do this thing.”
More in a bit.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-26-2013, 08:41 AM Post: #89
pezer Offline
Pothead Saruman
Posts: 800
Joined: Jan 2013
Reputation: 8
RE: Advertising
I want to express my objections fully, like ChainOfBeing, not to demolish or contradict you, but because if you are to win, you must understand them. Even if you later decide to ignore them.
I think advertisement, the appeal to drives, is a massive disrispect to human chemistry. I may be cruel, but I prefer to let someone be dumb than force him to be smart. I don’t want my friends to be endebted to me to that degree, and anybody that I help is a friend. There is an important element of individuality to human, to mammal, even. To attempt to overcome this is communism, fascism, and all other governmental isms.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
Send this user a private message Visit this user’s website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-26-2013, 08:43 AM Post: #90
pezer Offline
Pothead Saruman
Posts: 800
Joined: Jan 2013
Reputation: 8
RE: Advertising
In other words, I believe that lust is a private affair, and a human right in its privacy if any thing is.
Privacy isn’t secrecy, just discretion in the sense of initiative.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
RE: Advertising
Absolutely.
This touches on the deep instinct of aversion and disgust I have always had when given the opportunity to lead lesser minds to positions of higher truths. If I am the only thing causing their rise, this is not only offensive to them and me, but is actually harmful to them. And to me. I am only able to speak with, education and elevate minds that have a certain quality about them which means that my “interventions” into their ideas is not manipulation but rather only an exchange of information. I suspect this quality has much to do with the difference between active and passive consciousness.
I think this is something that certain people just do not understand, because they seem to feel none of this aversion in the moment of manipulative influence. To them the ends entirely justify the means, with no “remainder” whatsoever.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-26-2013, 01:02 PM (This post was last modified: 05-26-2013 01:02 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #92
ChainOfBeing Offline
Probationer
Posts: 178
Joined: Dec 2012
Reputation: 4
RE: Advertising
And Q, as for Google Glass… so what?
You think we do not already live in a world without whatever values and ideals you think are going to be sacrificed to Glass? Wake up man. Open your fucking eyes.
Glass is just another excuse for you to feel the stimulation of your ego, of your vanity as coerced self-valuing. You are more interested in your own emotional pleasure and self-justification than in anything else, which is why I have questioned you on this whole “revolutionzing advertising” thing from the very beginning here.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-26-2013, 02:19 PM (This post was last modified: 05-26-2013 02:23 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #93
ChainOfBeing Offline
Probationer
Posts: 178
Joined: Dec 2012
Reputation: 4
RE: Advertising
Fixed Cross, yes I see what you are saying, I agree with you. From your vantage my argument here is basically saying that we should just lay down and give up, just wait to die. However that is not my intention, and this consequence only manifests from the perspective of someone as elevated as yourself.
I do not believe that Q is worthy of the power which you aim for. I believe that you are worthy of it. But I wonder how many there are, who are capable of really taking this power and controlling it, rather than being determined by it. Pezer is correct that one cannot just use the machine itself to try and destroy the machine, it will not let this happen. But what we can do is select certain parts of the machine, for revaluation. This would be the application of strict values-selection and would require both the most general-comprehensive kind of intelligent as well as the most specific-precise kind of intelligence. Value Ontology presupposes both, of course, in those who are able to/compelled to grasp it.
My aim is not to give up on the aim, but to legitimize it. For my part, this means to purge its impure elements. At this point that is all I can really do, because I see this more easily than I see where we actually go forward from here. Your point that the future is not poisoned, yes I see this too – perhaps my issue is with the chasm between the ideal-actual and the real-actual, between the forms of virtuality, as equally real in their own right, and the concrete constructions of hard past, immovable stone, the dead and forever dying.
The mind can slip from one extreme to another and anywhere in between, based only on the most whimsical, psychologistic and arbitrary concern. Desire, need, self-satiety, anxiety and fear, self-defense, the feeling of the will to power… until these are harnessed by something which has gone beyond them, and beyond even the collective sum of them, we can elevate ourselves and our aim with as many theories and ideas as we like, but we have in effect changed nothing. Again this is what Pezer also said with his long list of thinkers-writers and the detrimental consequences of their thought. We must know at least in general toward what ends our aims move. And I do not mean our intention, our vision, but rather a movement seated in the world, in what is already beyond us.
When among those such as yourself, I am not nearly as cynical as I can appear to be. Pragmatism only hides an ideal when viewed through the lens of something greater, of something which truly has grown up from such soil of an ideal itself.
In effect, I long for a society of my peers, and barring this pronounce philosophy and all else merely an eternal vanity, a hopeless self-annihilation.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-27-2013, 02:04 AM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 02:04 AM by Q.) Post: #94
Q Offline
5151
Posts: 469
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 5
RE: Advertising
Someone tell this guy we all get the basic ideas he’s presenting here. We don’t need the tl;dr posts about the basics of conspiracy 101.
And that he doesn’t need to talk like a movie character.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-27-2013, 02:06 AM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 02:11 AM by Q.) Post: #95
Q Offline
5151
Posts: 469
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 5
RE: Advertising
I’ve asked you the same question like fucking 14 times. Why don’t you try answering it, instead of rambling on about shit we’ve beaten into the ground 3 years ago.
We’re growing up. You should think about joining us. You’re just a broken record at this point. You’ve said the same thing in every post in this thread. It’s not that I don’t get it. It’s that I don’t care about your sophomoric stance.
Quote:
I do not believe that Q is worthy of the power which you aim for.
Don’t tell me that power can corrupt a person. You haven’t had enough to know what it’s like.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-27-2013, 02:18 AM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 02:20 AM by Q.) Post: #96
Q Offline
5151
Posts: 469
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 5
RE: Advertising
Quote:
I do not believe that Q is worthy of the power which you aim for. I believe that you are worthy of it. But I wonder how many there are, who are capable of really taking this power and controlling it, rather than being determined by it. Pezer is correct that one cannot just use the machine itself to try and destroy the machine, it will not let this happen. But what we can do is select certain parts of the machine, for revaluation. This would be the application of strict values-selection and would require both the most general-comprehensive kind of intelligent as well as the most specific-precise kind of intelligence. Value Ontology presupposes both, of course, in those who are able to/compelled to grasp it.
My aim is not to give up on the aim, but to legitimize it. For my part, this means to purge its impure elements. At this point that is all I can really do, because I see this more easily than I see where we actually go forward from here. Your point that the future is not poisoned, yes I see this too – perhaps my issue is with the chasm between the ideal-actual and the real-actual, between the forms of virtuality, as equally real in their own right, and the concrete constructions of hard past, immovable stone, the dead and forever dying.
The mind can slip from one extreme to another and anywhere in between, based only on the most whimsical, psychologistic and arbitrary concern. Desire, need, self-satiety, anxiety and fear, self-defense, the feeling of the will to power… until these are harnessed by something which has gone beyond them, and beyond even the collective sum of them, we can elevate ourselves and our aim with as many theories and ideas as we like, but we have in effect changed nothing. Again this is what Pezer also said with his long list of thinkers-writers and the detrimental consequences of their thought. We must know at least in general toward what ends our aims move. And I do not mean our intention, our vision, but rather a movement seated in the world, in what is already beyond us.
I don’t know if you are just baked or something, but read this outloud. You realize that you are saying
literally nothing of substance here.
So what should we aspire to, really? Long posts on a forum preaching to the choir? Or actual change in the world? And your counterargument is, “Well I don’t think that guy that can successfully do it.”
You don’t even fucking know me, man. If you did you wouldn’t be talking to me like an 6-year-old about the Will to Power. I will fill you in on something: everyone here understands the Will to Power. We have all read most philosophy books. I even have a degree in philosophy. I don’t need your approval. All I need is for you to answer the question I have posed to you 14 times.
I’m really getting tired of people treating reality like some Star Trek TNG city.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator
05-27-2013, 02:27 AM Post: #97
Q Offline
5151
Posts: 469
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 5
RE: Advertising
As I said before: I haven’t given up on society.
Have you, chain? Have you completely given up, and do you want things to be some Mad Max scenario?