RE: Advertising
You are not reading what I am writing it seems.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-21-2013, 06:16 AM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2013 06:22 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #32
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RE: Advertising
You mean ads as communication, right? Without an agenda.
On the one hand I think it’s still a vanity project - your self-valuing will always speak a different value than universal benevolence. You’ll always be biased and thus antagonizing certain others. Still, if the intention is less consciously specific, you might effect better results, in terms of peoples free choice to either hear you or not.
We can bring a degree of freedom to advertising, separate of profi, the techniques of drawing the love of others for the sake of itself - “romancing the stone”.
Even so it wil be hard to match and top the great campaigns of history - drawn broadly you can see the whole of civilization as a war of advertising campaigns. Statues, columns, incense, naked women talking gibberish, a crucifix, a 20th Century Fox intro, evocations of intuitions, One in so many men always knew how to speak that way, and when he did he was followed.
A key to the great campaigns is that they all did carry a rudimentary value to sell, something that could be milked, drawn out over time, emptied to the bottom, exploited. Empires fall when there’s nothing new to advertise, no angle to the original power/glory that fed the kingdom its narrative-political sap.
Advertise with blood. How thin will your ads stretch reality?
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05-21-2013, 06:30 AM Post: #33
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RE: Advertising
Another thought is that between the ad-narratives of history, the conflict and absurd void between, them, that this ‘sea of possibilities’ can be excavated from its being-as-blurr(between logics) into “Form” ad-fundum.
Binah - Ah. Binah is the form that emerges most primordially out of force - instill forms into the nervous system, touch certain ‘chords’ of electrochemical timing, speak to ‘cycles’ - perpetuate certain ‘happiness’ – and arrow, a goal –
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05-21-2013, 07:44 AM Post: #34
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Q, if I did understand your meaning, what kind of answer might I write?
I hope we are past suspecting sarcasm in each other.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-21-2013, 04:35 PM Post: #35
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
Even so it will be hard to match and top the great campaigns of history
I think that we found ourselves in the realm of selling ideas. Whereas the Bernays stuff was more toward selling things.
Which is to say that, yes, communication is advertising.
Quote:
Without an agenda.
No. With an agenda, just a transparent one. For example, when you to go web page… Fundamentally, there isn’t a lot of lying going on. You just get told what is up.
I know I am not explaining this very well. I will keep trying to do so, though. All I know is I am me, and I know all of you, and this is all based on our past experiences, but I don’t see any moral qualm with working in advertising/marketing. Like I said, I think that it will always be around in some way or another. We sell and we buy. That’s what we do in some way or another.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-21-2013, 05:32 PM Post: #36
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Oh, I don’t see any moral problem with it either. My problem is stratego-philosophical. That’s why I keep using the Meatrix comparison. “Moraly,” if you must, Morpheous and Lock are on the same team.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-21-2013, 06:06 PM Post: #37
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
Advertising is sales, and I don’t trust a sales system based on the premise that it’s fine to make shit up to fit your intended message (in advertising, usually shitty primal ones deemed whatever by the oligarchic order), like it’s art.
How is it really different than art?
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-21-2013, 06:14 PM Post: #38
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RE: Advertising
As Fixed Cross once wrote, it serves to stimulate the feeling that something interesting is going on, rather than give or move one toward any kind of actual real value. Self-valuing is manipulated, much in the same way that religion manipulates it – co-opted the valuational mechanism and making it serve ends foreign and even self-destructive to it. If the self-valuing values accidentally or only partially, by assuming the standards of others as its own, it breeds in its own destruction.
This is the real problem with advertising, it is just another modern form of quasi-religious intoxication and insanity-manipulation. I agree with Q that advertising can and should be made more efficient, if we are speaking from within the modern paradigm itself, for of course this makes good sense. But seeing the whole picture, all you are doing is helping the system refine its tools, sharpen its fangs, and put even heavier locks on the doors of the self.
The world wants to imprison you. This is what the world “is”, no “conspiracies” needed. Take religion, politics, economics, morality, advertising, you name it. Various systems used to breed various kinds of human beings. Just because your intention is to remove some impurities and excesses of one of these system does not mean your aim is in any way ethical or good, or is not merely assisting the behemoth in its task to devour you whole. Remember, if it doesn’t need to chew quite so much, it’s that much less effort it needs to bother with.
Someone once said that true propaganda slips in without any resistance. And you have not yet defined what you consider to be the distinction between propaganda and advertising. You seem to be clearly against the one, clearly in favor of the other (your idea of it) so where do you draw the difference? Advertising for Coca-Cola has probably killed more humans on this planet than any conflict or war in human history, and probably generated more concentrated wealth than any great colonization and spoils of war.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-21-2013, 06:17 PM Post: #39
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RE: Advertising
In the ideal, I mean.
It seems like being on the internet and advertising is the same thing in a manner of speaking.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-21-2013, 06:18 PM Post: #40
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
Someone once said that true propaganda slips in without any resistance.
I am saying: let’s make this a good thing.
RE: Advertising
Quote:
And you have not yet defined what you consider to be the distinction between propaganda and advertising.
I thought I explained this.
(05-20-2013 10:38 AM)Q Wrote:
The difference is as follows:
Propaganda — Exploiting a known weakness or tendency in someone, or a group of people’s psychology.
(Proper) Advertising — Offering someone something that they may want, tailored to complement that psychology.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-21-2013, 06:21 PM Post: #42
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RE: Advertising
I asked you earlier here toward what end/s you aim, and you replied, “Just for the sake of doing it.”
What makes you think you are in any way qualified to decide what “good” is to be served here?
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-21-2013, 06:28 PM Post: #43
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RE: Advertising
Why is art made, though?
Just for the sake of doing it.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-21-2013, 08:48 PM Post: #44
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
(05-21-2013 06:06 PM)Q Wrote:
Quote:
Advertising is sales, and I don’t trust a sales system based on the premise that it’s fine to make shit up to fit your intended message (in advertising, usually shitty primal ones deemed whatever by the oligarchic order), like it’s art.
How is it really different than art?
Art sells itself. Advertising sells X.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-21-2013, 08:49 PM Post: #45
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
And X = Oligarchic Power Interests in the most brutal way.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-21-2013, 08:50 PM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2013 08:51 PM by pezer.) Post: #46
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Much art is sneaky advertising, and that is what perhaps is known as propaganda. (Interesting fact, propaganda is the word for simple advertising in Spanish, the term propaganda política being used for what the simple word is used by gringos.)
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-21-2013, 08:55 PM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2013 08:57 PM by pezer.) Post: #47
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Propaganda comes from the verb propagar, -anda is like a kind of “of the.” Propagar means to disseminate, pro- determinign action, movement, and pagar meaning to pay, to give something of value in exchange.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-22-2013, 01:26 AM Post: #48
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RE: Advertising
(05-20-2013 10:38 AM)Q Wrote:
The difference is as follows:
Propaganda — Exploiting a known weakness or tendency in someone, or a group of people’s psychology.
(Proper) Advertising — Offering someone something that they may want, tailored to complement that psychology.
It’s subtle, but it is there. I will give you an example.
(05-21-2013 08:48 PM)pezer Wrote:
(05-21-2013 06:06 PM)Q Wrote:
Quote:
Advertising is sales, and I don’t trust a sales system based on the premise that it’s fine to make shit up to fit your intended message (in advertising, usually shitty primal ones deemed whatever by the oligarchic order), like it’s art.
How is it really different than art?
Art sells itself. Advertising sells X.
This is why I see it as both selling the same thing.
[flash(0,0)]http://www.youtube.com/v/suRDUFpsHus[/flash]
RE: Advertising
Advertising can pull at your heart? No shit!
I pointed out the difference. Now I feel you are avoiding an answer you didn’t feel comfortable with.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-22-2013, 06:31 AM Post: #50
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RE: Advertising
The show itself is a commercial.
Mad Men isn’t selling anything other than itself, though.
It could all be like that. Seamless.
There isn’t a difference between art and advertising that I can see. Not in theory. Obviously in demonstrable practice, but I am not talking about that.
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05-22-2013, 10:51 AM Post: #51
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RE: Advertising
It seems like unless you are unfunded, all art is just a commercial. When you really look at it like I am trying to.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-22-2013, 11:38 AM Post: #52
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RE: Advertising
Listen, I get it. You want art to not be some pointless thing, to have weight. You see advertising as the way to do that. I’m saying that’s a trap. Undoubtedly, taking a trap head on is often the best way to approach it, I’m just saying that if you make your weight out of these pre-made societal structures, you are taking on a whole bunch of “lizard kings rolling in the back, how 'bout that?” I’m saying fuck that, let’s rebuild. In the end, if you need help for your wacky shit, I will give it. Likewise, maybe you will help me along my more nihilistic path.
Difference is the pathos of true evolutionary process.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-22-2013, 05:11 PM Post: #53
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RE: Advertising
Maybe this is one of those ‘is Gotham beyond saving’ things, but I’m not totally against society. Just the bankers and corporations that are tying to pull a fast one.
Plus, when I really think about how to affect large-scale change, it’s one of those infiltrate from the inside plans always. I’m just not the nihilistic type.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-22-2013, 06:06 PM Post: #54
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
So what is the approach of your vision to reinterpret advertising? Can it be compatible with non-government?
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-23-2013, 02:01 AM (This post was last modified: 05-23-2013 02:03 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #55
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RE: Advertising
There is a huge difference between art, in particular inspired/authentic art or “art pour l’art” and advertising. Advertising wants to manipulate to sell something, to insert lies inside the mind toward some goal that has nothing to do with whatever is good or bad for the victim of the ad. Art rather wants to show and disclose truth, even if this truth is painful or harmful. Often it is not, and even so disclosing suffering and harmful truth through art will lead to mental and emotional uplift and increased self-consciousness. The perspectives and experiences created by art are done from and for the interests of truth, whereas those created by advertising are done not in the interest of truth but in the interest of control. Q, what you may be seeing is the degree of overlap between truth and manipulative control, of course there is some overlap here. But the real spheres of art and advertising are separate, and only intersect a little in the middle, when advertising wants to mimic art to make its control more effective.
This is why advertising is no different from propaganda. Advertising is not art, it is propaganda, trying to sell something regardless of what the victim needs or wants. No one forces art at you, or its message, these must be approached actively and openly and with some conscious intention. Not so with advertising, which shoves its message and image upon you rather you want it or not.
Art cares about you, and values truth. That is why the art exists at all. What does advertising care about and value? Profit, to control and manipulation to create consumers of products. Q, you want to make advertising more like art in this respect, but you cannot succeed, all you can do is give advertising better tools with which to better mimic art, thus making advertising even more effective and deadly. Further contributing to human’s inability to tell the difference for themselves.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-23-2013, 05:52 AM Post: #56
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RE: Advertising
We’re all online…
Is the type of art you talk about possible anymore?
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-23-2013, 05:53 AM Post: #57
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RE: Advertising
Think of it in a Marxian sense.
It’s all money.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-23-2013, 06:44 AM Post: #58
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RE: Advertising
Surely you are not claiming that real art is not being done anymore.
I would not even know how to respond to such an absurd claim.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-23-2013, 10:33 AM Post: #59
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RE: Advertising
Sure it’s being done offline in caves maybe.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-23-2013, 10:52 AM (This post was last modified: 05-23-2013 10:52 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #60
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RE: Advertising
Today even artists using traditional media like canvas put a lot of their work online. Also people create new digital art, just for the sake of art and not because it is part of any ad campaign.
I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here, it seems Pezer was right that you are just trying to avoid an uncomfortable reality.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-23-2013, 11:04 AM Post: #61
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RE: Advertising
Lol
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-23-2013, 12:42 PM Post: #62
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RE: Advertising
What do you guys say to the Marx point?
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-24-2013, 08:51 AM Post: #63
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RE: Advertising
Cause it’s a pretty old argument.
I am not the first one to look at art critically. I’m not the first one to call into question this Dreamboat conception you have of it.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-24-2013, 09:44 AM Post: #64
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RE: Advertising
Dont bitch around, Q has hold of the most vital part of Earthly power… And he wants to humanize it, naturalizr it. Superhymanize, perhaps. All of us already know the power and the downside of that. Q is looking for an upside.
There is none’ is not a vital answer.
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05-24-2013, 12:10 PM Post: #65
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RE: Advertising
I have failed to really convey the entirety of this, but it is actually a cynical enough approach for you cynics. I recognize the underlying drives in people (and masses), and I am looking to use it.
Let’s drop the aesthetics talk and just recognize that for a second. With Netflix, YouTube, and just the net in general, there is a marketing/advertising revolution occurring.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-24-2013, 12:49 PM Post: #66
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RE: Advertising
Let’s advertise the future.
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05-24-2013, 12:52 PM (This post was last modified: 05-24-2013 12:57 PM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #67
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RE: Advertising
coming soon:
THE FUTURE
Get tickets NOW at NWO
It shouldn’t be hard to top that pitch. But it’s going to be hard to pitch it so that humanity will attain the state of mind conductive of a future we can approve of.
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05-25-2013, 01:18 AM (This post was last modified: 05-25-2013 01:21 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #68
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RE: Advertising
This so called great power is the tyrannical manipulation and subvert control that reduces man to a passive consumer, an unthinking zombie. The argument of course can be made that man has already been reduced thusly, and who is to say that even before the advent of advertising that man was not in such an unawakened state? (Of course he was). But, my concern here had been with the telos of this intention to grab this power, to change it, to apply it. Toward what ends do you aim?
Merely playing with this power for the sake of play, for the fun of it, represents the lowest kind of aspiration, like that of a child. Intending something “good” only means one has matured slightly if there is a firm understanding of what “good” really means, and of course even if this is the case one is still but a dangerous and ignorant adolescent if one has no real knowledge or skill with how to apply a method to direct and use this power. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as we know.
I was interested to discover the motives behind the aim. More so, too, to discover the source and substance of these motives, and rather they be informed by any means and maturity regardless of their “goodness”. One only need look to the Stanford Prison Study to learn mankind’s natural inclination to “good will” under having been granted near-absolute power over his brothers. No “natural” will can serve us here, not where the direct, potent and often invisible manipulations of mankind are concerned. Neither will a will to power serve us at this juncture, contrary to what Nietzsche wrote. Nietzsche did not live in an age where the tools and weapons were so easily able to be picked up and wielded by quite literally anybody.
What we have now is all out warfare of ideas, control, dogma, brainwashing, but unlike in the past many “uninitiated” masses of men now play the game. As I wrote, they are made to kill each other without any need for a third party. You are so eager to jump into the trenches as get your hands dirty with them? I would rather undermine the system as a whole, I would rather cultivate something worthy of going beyond this merely animal hell, than deceive myself that I can play this game as good or better than those who have been mastering it for the last 80 years.
First, I propose we analyze a series of essential questions concerned with refining not only our sight but also out taste, from both directions, if indeed your will is to play the game on their own terms. Like Pezer I am more of an anarchist here, but since you are set on your path, let us try and cull something of greater potential from this path.
- upon what do you draw when crafting your “improved” ads?
- what is man’s relationship to the ads you create
- for whom do you work/receive pay in creating ads?
- do you have mechanisms in place to evaluate the effectiveness of your ads?
- if yes to 4 above, what are the standards you use to evaluate effectiveness or lack of effectiveness?
- where do you most realistically see man in 50 years from now, relative to what you think the potential is for your advertising power to contribute toward this future?
- where do you want to see man in 50 years from now, relative to what you think the potential is for your advertising power to contribute toward this future?
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-25-2013, 06:01 AM Post: #69
Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
Merely playing with this power for the sake of play, for the fun of it, represents the lowest kind of aspiration, like that of a child.
FX, tell him.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-25-2013, 06:04 AM (This post was last modified: 05-25-2013 06:07 AM by Q.) Post: #70
Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
As for the rest, as I have said, it’s not about the content so much as the relevance of the ads.
You keep missing my point. It’s not about what I am writing. It’s about changing the method of distribution so you don’t have the situation where people are zombied through ads they don’t care about.
The stuff I said about wanting to manipulate people’s minds, just forget about. It’s true, but those are not my aspirations. I, as a culture critic, have come to just see most people as wanting to be manipuated.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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RE: Advertising
You are not reading what I am writing it seems.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-21-2013, 06:16 AM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2013 06:22 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #32
Fixed Cross Offline
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RE: Advertising
You mean ads as communication, right? Without an agenda.
On the one hand I think it’s still a vanity project - your self-valuing will always speak a different value than universal benevolence. You’ll always be biased and thus antagonizing certain others. Still, if the intention is less consciously specific, you might effect better results, in terms of peoples free choice to either hear you or not.
We can bring a degree of freedom to advertising, separate of profi, the techniques of drawing the love of others for the sake of itself - “romancing the stone”.
Even so it wil be hard to match and top the great campaigns of history - drawn broadly you can see the whole of civilization as a war of advertising campaigns. Statues, columns, incense, naked women talking gibberish, a crucifix, a 20th Century Fox intro, evocations of intuitions, One in so many men always knew how to speak that way, and when he did he was followed.
A key to the great campaigns is that they all did carry a rudimentary value to sell, something that could be milked, drawn out over time, emptied to the bottom, exploited. Empires fall when there’s nothing new to advertise, no angle to the original power/glory that fed the kingdom its narrative-political sap.
Advertise with blood. How thin will your ads stretch reality?
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05-21-2013, 06:30 AM Post: #33
Fixed Cross Offline
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RE: Advertising
Another thought is that between the ad-narratives of history, the conflict and absurd void between, them, that this ‘sea of possibilities’ can be excavated from its being-as-blurr(between logics) into “Form” ad-fundum.
Binah - Ah. Binah is the form that emerges most primordially out of force - instill forms into the nervous system, touch certain ‘chords’ of electrochemical timing, speak to ‘cycles’ - perpetuate certain ‘happiness’ – and arrow, a goal –
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05-21-2013, 07:44 AM Post: #34
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Q, if I did understand your meaning, what kind of answer might I write?
I hope we are past suspecting sarcasm in each other.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-21-2013, 04:35 PM Post: #35
Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
Even so it will be hard to match and top the great campaigns of history
I think that we found ourselves in the realm of selling ideas. Whereas the Bernays stuff was more toward selling things.
Which is to say that, yes, communication is advertising.
Quote:
Without an agenda.
No. With an agenda, just a transparent one. For example, when you to go web page… Fundamentally, there isn’t a lot of lying going on. You just get told what is up.
I know I am not explaining this very well. I will keep trying to do so, though. All I know is I am me, and I know all of you, and this is all based on our past experiences, but I don’t see any moral qualm with working in advertising/marketing. Like I said, I think that it will always be around in some way or another. We sell and we buy. That’s what we do in some way or another.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-21-2013, 05:32 PM Post: #36
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Oh, I don’t see any moral problem with it either. My problem is stratego-philosophical. That’s why I keep using the Meatrix comparison. “Moraly,” if you must, Morpheous and Lock are on the same team.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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05-21-2013, 06:06 PM Post: #37
Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
Advertising is sales, and I don’t trust a sales system based on the premise that it’s fine to make shit up to fit your intended message (in advertising, usually shitty primal ones deemed whatever by the oligarchic order), like it’s art.
How is it really different than art?
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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05-21-2013, 06:14 PM Post: #38
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: Advertising
As Fixed Cross once wrote, it serves to stimulate the feeling that something interesting is going on, rather than give or move one toward any kind of actual real value. Self-valuing is manipulated, much in the same way that religion manipulates it – co-opted the valuational mechanism and making it serve ends foreign and even self-destructive to it. If the self-valuing values accidentally or only partially, by assuming the standards of others as its own, it breeds in its own destruction.
This is the real problem with advertising, it is just another modern form of quasi-religious intoxication and insanity-manipulation. I agree with Q that advertising can and should be made more efficient, if we are speaking from within the modern paradigm itself, for of course this makes good sense. But seeing the whole picture, all you are doing is helping the system refine its tools, sharpen its fangs, and put even heavier locks on the doors of the self.
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