in terms of what I want to accomplish and am able to be. EA makes it slightly easier to ‘zero in’ on influences.
But I am truly a novice at this - I began my experiments two years ago. I also don’t know how you are used to working - perhaps you can propose a chart to examine.
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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:29 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
A thread where I will post my running thoughts on astrology, along with ongoing explanation of and reflection on what the hell astrology is anyway. First a couple of basics - there is a lot of ground to cover to make it understandable in the first place.
This is a natal chart.
The colored symbols on the outside of the wheel, from the top clockwise, are:
Jupiter (at ‘2 o clock’)
Mars
Neptune
Pluto
Venus
Sun
Mercury
Moon
Saturn
Uranus
AC stands for Ascendant, meaning rising sign - the horizon at time of birth.
Analyzing a chart can start in different ways. Usually one looks at the sign and house occupied by the sun. In this case, the Sun is in Aries, and the second house. In fact the time of birth of this person is in question, but it does not matter for I am just using it as an example of how to read a chart.
The Houses are sections of the sky which is divided in 12 parts analogous to the signs. During a day, as the Earth rotates around its axis, all the asteroids, planets, stars and signs ‘travel’ through the 12 houses. A house thus represents a window of two hours. The houses stand for roughly the same as the signs they correspond with.
house 1: I
house 2: values
house 3: communication
house 4: home
house 5: creativity
house 6: service
house 7: others
house 8: “sex and death other peoples money”
house 9: travel, religion, philosophy, law
house 10: ambition, standing
house 11: friends, groups, allies
house 12: self-undoing, faith, surrender
The Sun of the persons natal chart occupies Aries in the second house. The Sun, representing much the life-force, is in the “I will” sign of Aries, in the house of values. It suggests a strong willed person who is not about to give up on his (it is a man) values.
Close to the Sun is Mercury (as always, obviously from a geocentric perspective Mercury can not be very far from the Sun). Mercury stands for communications, intellect (‘rules’ the third house and the corresponding sign of Gemini). It is on the threshold (“cusp”) of the first and second house. the person expresses and thinks in terms of both self and values. One could speculate the value of the self would be much present in this persons communications (And no, this is not my own natal chart, by the way - just a hero of mine.)
The planets, a term that in this contexts rather annoyingly includes the Sun and moon. Obviously the categorizations are never complete, as this is not an ‘exact’ science but a living body of very ancient and continuously growing empirical data, on the basis of which virtually the entire collection of known myths and mysticisms is built.
Sun: Life-force, ‘naive’ drive, power, identity.
Moon: Sentiment, Mother, body, feeling, belonging, safety.
Mercury: Intellect, expression.
Venus: Attraction, Earthly values, affection, money.
Mars: Force, determination, strength, passion.
Jupiter: Expansiveness, nobility, generosity, luck, philosophy, law.
Saturn: Restriction, responsibility, severity, realism.
Uranus: Sudden force, technology, intuition, individualism, freedom.
Neptune: Poetry, mysticism, intoxication.
Pluto: Power, chance, death and resurrection, invisible influence.
The Aspects - this is what you see represented as the colored lines in between certain planets. These represent the angles to which the planets stand from a geocentric perspective - the angles at which they operated on us at the time we emerged from our mother and became our own little electromagnetic system. In the chart above we see red lines, blue lines, green lines and a light blue line. Red lines stand for hard aspects - angles of 90 and 180 degrees. These aspects represent ‘challenges’ - things that do not go smoothly, need work, cause trouble. The blue lines stand for harmonic aspects - angles of 60 and 120 degrees. These aspects represent ‘ease’ - things with which we are ‘blessed’, powers we have that tend to go unnoticed by us, taken for granted, but which attract others to us. One could call them talents, but that gets confusing, as a talent may come in the guise of a challenge. Also there are many other aspects - in fact of course every angle is a “harmony”. But I will now stick to the main, most clearly effective ones.
In general we can see that there is a certain logic in the organization of a circle divided in 12 parts, and the prominence of the factors 2, 3, 4 and 6. The factors 2 and 4 form hard angles and the 3 and 6 factors soft ones. There are other ways in which the factors 3 and 4 play a part, more on that later. First a list of the main aspects.
180 degrees: opposition. The planets are working against each other, causing conflict, doubt and error in the areas they represent.
120 degrees: trine. The planets are working with each other, mutually feeding each others strength, causing power and luck in the areas they represent.
90 degrees: square. The planets are at odds: cutting into each others realm of influence, causing a permanent state of conflict, from which a great deal of awareness and steering force is necessitated and thus, over time, created.
60 degrees: sextile. The planets are at ease, operating alongside each other harmoniously, and allowing for fluid combination of the areas represented by them.
0 degrees: conjunction. The influences of the planets are merged.
There is a main special case, the 72 degree aspect, the factor 5. This is called the quintile. It is prominent in many charts of exceptionally talented and/or lucky people. It is called a ‘magical’ aspect.
All aspects are calculated with a certain margin. The more fundamental an aspect is, the greater the margin. A conjunction is calculated with a margin of up to 10 degrees, a trine usually 5, up to 8 when it involves major ‘planets’ such as the Sun, a sextile 3 to 5, a quintile around 2.
Personally I find the opposition to be the most interesting aspect. It represents the greatest challenge, and some oppositions are an almost fail-proof recipe for disaster. However, there is hardly any interesting artist who does not have one or more oppositions in his chart. We know that art is born of conflict, and this is reinforced by looking at astrological chart. The person to whom the chart above belongs has an incredibly difficult opposition - Moon opposed Pluto and Neptune.
I have seen Moon-Pluto oppositions, and they aren’t pretty. Invariably they belong to people who cause suffering (mothers fucking up their children) or are made to suffer. Moon-Neptune oppositions are much more innocent, but still wildly difficult to deal with - they relate to drug abuse, telepathy, lack of personal borders, etc. The combination of Pluto and Neptune opposed by the moon suggests a conflict and awareness of virtually limitless proportions. Of course, Neptune and Pluto were conjunct for a very long time, and every month people were born with the moon opposing this conjunction. This person happened to amount to a great deal, but there are millions who ‘suffered the same fate’ to an extent - I’d expect a lot of people to have gone insane under that aspect. But I am wandering. Hell, this is a wander-thread anyhow. I will wander a bit further even and post a description of oppositions I wrote some time ago. Some insight can be gained from these about the nature of the signs, which I will describe later.
Oppositions:
Since oppositions form an axis, from one sign to the opposite (in most cases), it seems to me that, next to producing a tension or perhaps rather ‘debility’ between those planets that are opposed, they allow for the possibility of the subject experiencing that axis as a whole. The whole deal, with all of it’s contradictions.
A significant planetary Aries-Libra opposition would mean that one is initially completely bewildered as to how to address oneself and the world, and eventually learns to know the ‘inner mechanics’ of the I versus Them/Y’all axis, and become something of an expert on psycho-social matters, at least with the energy brought about by the combination of the relevant planets.
A Taurus-Scorpio opposition would mean that one is bewildered about ones own physical values and the “value exchange” that is death, sex and the economic-world. One would have a lot of fears and anxieties about values, until one learns to come to a generalized understanding of value, to find ones proper perspective in the matter by a greater overview.
A Gemini-Sagittarius opposition would mean that there is bewilderment in terms of ones personal expression and intelligence versus the established intelligentia (law, religion, philosophy) and that one is unable to find and settle on a “my truth” because personal truth is so deeply incompatible with established truth. In the end one would learn the mechanics of truth-establishment - one would become a philosopher, and transcend ones personal perspective, and be able to produce great clarity applicable by many.
A Cancer-Capricorn opposition would mean a bewilderment in terms of ones home and ones place in the world - unable to feel at home and to choose a career - bringing home matters to work, work to home, in excessive or inappropriate ways; the resolution might be something from a professional patriot (for example a politician or a nationalistic artist), to someone whose work relates to homes, or works at home… not so sure about this one, cancer/4th house is kind of a mystery to me.
Leo-Aquarius opposition would mean a bewilderment about self-expression and group-interest, feeling drawn to “mean something to a group” and yet insisting on doing everything ones own way, and this could be resolved in attaining a position of responsibility whereby ones ego is fed by the respect one gets from the group.
Virgo-Pisces opposition would mean… tough one… I have these signs intercepted… still on the quest to determine their meaning in my own terms. I guess, it would be a bewilderment in terms of the physical and the ‘spiritual’ inability to “choose a conviction”, and when resolved, would result in the ability to transcend the spirit/matter duality, and fulfill ones spiritual role on earth with very real results.
These are all gross generalizations, I am trying to convey the general idea. Oppositions certainly produce an extended, ‘self-transcendent’ consciousness – they are much underrated – it is an aspect that, due to the vast terrain it forces the native to deal with (an entire axis, a whole duality, ‘world’), produces a strong creative will. If you’ll look at charts of strong, transformative artists, you’ll very often, I’d say almost invariably find oppositions.
It’s for a good part a process of testing established theory empirically. Much of what I wrote here is fairly well established (within astrology, of course - within science there is zero acceptance of the idea that it even could be valid, but since I am working empirically, I am indifferent to such dogma) but it has all passed through the filter of my own experimenting and verifying. I have been occupied with astrology very intensively for the past seven or eight years, and have, in recent years as I grew confident that it’s really quite possible to gain real and useful insight in this way, done a good number of readings of peoples charts, which are without exception received as accurate, usually very accurate.
The part that makes me a good astrologer is however not simply reiterating existing theory, it is a capacity for ‘live’ combination and examination of elements in meditation. Since these influences do in fact work (of course I am not expecting you or anyone to take my word on it, this thread is just meant to provide information about what astrology is) it is possible for me to experience them at any given moment. The nature of my mind is such that I can hold two influences in my concentration and examine them in relation to each other with great accuracy.
There is certainly some ‘beef’ that I have with some existing theory, but mainly that goes for interpretations on newly found objects such as the asteroid Chiron. I have come up with a quite different interpretation than what the community has so far been able to produce, and this interpretation has been well received. I was able to look at it from a perspective that no one had thought of. Of course, as astrology is an empirical discipline (and not an abstract one) it takes numerous decades, the work of many astrologers for an influence to be understood to a good degree.
But let’s for a moment address, or acknowledge the question that is no doubt on your and most peoples mind: how can astrology work? This question has not left my mind since I began to notice that it does work. I have at last, upon learning that we have EM fields within every brain cell, accepted that there must be some influence radiating from cosmic objects, that to deny that would be to deny the laws of physics, of causality. But this is not entirely satisfactory, given for example the enormous astrological influence of Pluto, which is a very small object very far from Earth.
Only recently I figured out how Pluto can have such influence. It may have to do with the irregularity of its orbit compared to that of the other planets. Where the ‘ordinary’ planets are very neatly organized around the sun in ‘matching’ orbits, symmetrical to each other, Pluto’s orbit slightly destabilizes this whole system, as it has a more elliptical path. So my interpretation now is that Pluto doesn’t so much work on the individual himself directly as on the state of the entire solar system, and indirectly on the individual. This would very much correspond to the theory that has been established on Pluto’s influence - Pluto is seen as a ‘subversive’ influence, something beneath the surface, underlying other influences. Of course Pluto isn’t the only object to which this would apply.
Since very recently I have been looking at the recently discovered Eris, or UB313, slightly larger than Pluto (causing Pluto to be degraded by astronomers to asteroid or dwarf-planet) which has an even more deviating orbit.
So once again - the size of Pluto and Eris do not suggest that they could be of great influence, but what apparently (and not illogically) matters is their behavior in relation to the other objects, to the system as a whole.
Then, next to the rather simple reliance on EM and gravity to explain the influences, there is another form of interpretation, which Aletheia/Capable from BTL has developed, to do with the different layers of causality, ‘projection’ of one layer unto the other, etc. This is far too involved and complicated for me to be able to explicate right here and now, but I should mention it to give an idea of what I am working with to explain what astrologers have been observing since the beginning of human culture.
Recently I was struck again by an interesting phenomenon that I’ve seen occur. It’s not accepted theory as far as I’ve read, but it’s undeniably real to me in some cases. What is the case? Look at the above chart. Moon in Sagittarius opposes Neptune in Gemini, by around 2 degrees. Well within the limit for an opposition, which might be set at 10, like a conjunction or 5-8, like a square. In any case it’s tight. What happens is that the native strongly fits the usual description of a moon in Gemini placement, as well as a Neptune in Sagittarius one. Sometimes this appearance is even stronger than the characteristics corresponding to the ‘real’ placement. The relevance to the native of characterizations of the planet all across the Zodiac does however remains contained to the realm within the aspects of the planet in question. In other words, it does not point to there not being any real rules after all, to astrology being pure projection, which is what I still consider in all moments when I am forced to deviate from common theory. There is an actual exchange going on along the axis of influence between two planets.
The explanation is not very difficult to divine, I fear. Any aspect opens up the person to a duality. When it is a duality that is pertinent to the main energy currents of the individual life, the two forces dance around each other long deep and intimately and get familiar among each others contexts. A multi-aspected planet would be ‘all over the place’.
Transits are the stuff of ongoing predictive astrology. It is what is used by governments and corporations to set dates for the launch of projects, be they wars, laws, products, liquidations or whatever. We speak of a transit when a planet moves across a significant point of a natal chart - the name natal chart here is a bit misleading as nations have such charts, as do websites like this, as does anything that ‘comes into being’ at a given time. The natal chart of the US is, if I am not mistaken, drawn by the moment of the signing of the declaration of independence. When Gobbo have me the date and time for the launch of this site, I was struck with how the chart corresponds precisely to what it has turned out to be so far, as well as some other correspondences. When Microsoft launches a new Windows OS or Apple a new Iphone, you can be sure the timing is carefully calculated using astrology. There’s just too much to lose by not using this means, and nothing to lose by using it. As Churchill said: “If Hitler is using it, so am I”. Churchill who has one of the most phenomenal natal charts I have ever seen, by the way.
I will give an example of a transit. Currently, this is the situation from the perspective of New York.
If you look at the sign that is marked in blue and looks like this “II”, the sign of Gemini, you’ll see that at 12 degrees, there is a grey symbol of a moon with a cross underneath. This is the symbol for Lilith, the Dark moon, which represents the mirror point of the Earth in the elliptical orbit of the moon around the Earth. It’s a ‘planet’ (in fact a mathematical point in space) that is of a great significance that is very complicated to explain, but this is not the point right now. I just want to explain what a transit is, which is in fact very simple. Look at the chart at the top of the thread: at 11 degrees Gemini you’ll find Pluto. This means that Lilith has just transited the Pluto of the person to which this chart belongs. Let’s call this person “Ted”. We say that “Lilith is transiting Ted’s Pluto”.
What happens during a transit is that the energy of the transiting planet activates the energy of the natal planet (Ted’s natal Pluto) as it is ingrained in the chart. In fact a Lilith/Dark Moon - Pluto transit is a very heavy thing, as both of the two planets related heavily to what Jung calls “The Shadow” - “taboo” issues such as raw sexual magnetism and obsession. This would be an intense time for Ted, in which he would be forced to deal with issues that he would normally repress.
Naturally, transits are continuously occurring in every natal chart. Even if ones planets are concentrated in one sign, which is extremely rare and the case for no one alive now, the moon would transit this cluster every month. Moon transits are very quickly over, but they are by no means mild or insignificant. A friend of mine recently told me of a very powerful sexual experience, so I was curious about the transits occurring then. As it happened the moon, together with the ascendant, was transiting his Pluto/ascendant conjunction. Moon-Pluto accounts for a lot of deeply sexual psychology, the ascendant is a point of personal focus. The moments focus that night coincided with the natal focus, and this all coincided with a moon transit across natal Pluto.
A birthday is simply the Sun transiting the natal Sun. Slower moving planets, such as Saturn, which takes about 30 years to pass through the entire Zodiac, form transits that last longer. Saturn transiting a planet brings out the heavier necessities related to that planet, and it can bring things like financial breakthroughs or ruin as well as finding ones calling or deep crises. Saturn transiting natal Saturn is called the Saturn Return. Actually that terms is used to indicate the period from when Saturn enters the sign in which the natal Saturn is placed, until its exit. This period is set around ones 29/30/31st year. Most people will experience a deep transformation and focus or shift of purpose during this time. It is the first of a couple of deep ‘crisis’ moments caused by the slower moving planets. The next one, occurring around the 42nd birthday, is the Uranus Opposition, in which Uranus opposes the natal Uranus. This is the moment of midlife crisis, when one truly is forced to let go (Uranus: revolution, crisis, shock, renewal) of all old and artificial comforts and truly become self-created individual. The phrase “Life begins at 40” relates to this Uranus transit.
If you find yourself in an inexplicable crisis, a period of intense stress or oppression for which no clear reason can be found, you can be quite sure that one of the heavier planets is transiting a sensitive point in your chart.
To facilitate the analyses which anyone may want to undertake based on this information, I can offer two things - a personal reading, for which you can PM me and which I may or may not want to do depending on the urgency of the situation (I’m always glad to help out someone in need, but the work of interpreting is involved so I have to be convinced that there is a real improvement to make), and more easily, two web addresses using which you can gather the relevant information yourself.
Here is a page showing the current state of affairs over NY, this can be reconfigured to apply to any city in the world. Be sure to click on “next” twice so that the relevant city will show above the displayed chart.
Here is a link to a page where you can generate your natal chart.
These two generators are all you need to find out the current transits applying to any chart.
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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Fixed Cross
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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:31 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Odysseus ist allmählich zum schlauen Sclaven geworden (in der Komödie).
Odysseus is gradually to clever slave become (in the comedy)
Aeschylus hat den freien Faltenwurf des Gemüths aufgebracht.
Aeschylus has the free drapery of the mood angered.
Trivialität des Prozesses: außerordentlich naiver Stand des Socrates, des fanatischen Dialektikers.
Triviality of the process: extraordinarily naive position of Socrates, the fanatical Dialectics.
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04-14-2013, 09:59 AM (This post was last modified: 04-14-2013 10:00 AM by JSS.) Post: #2
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RE: German
American English
WTF!!
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04-19-2013, 07:31 PM Post: #3
pezer Offline
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RE: German
Mais la, c’est tres beau. Deja, je peus m’imaginer un peu l’esprit Alemagne, pas si loin de l’esprit Spagniol traditionaliste. Comme tu disais, plus Latin que les langues Romantiques!
O como se dice en criollo, más papista que el papa.
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Case in Favor of Caste system
03-28-2013, 10:21 AM (This post was last modified: 03-28-2013 10:22 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #1
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Case in Favor of Caste system
There are two types, at least, of human affiliation. Intellectual (“spiritual”) and physical (instinctual).
These realities operate throughout each other, but nevertheless, they are marked in individuals. Some individuals are simply not able to think, to ‘entertain’ themselves by thought. These people are a lower caste. It is not useful to deny this. Reality is regulated by man in the measure in which he admits to himself that it exists. This is easier when it comes to “objective” phenomena, things that go for all species and minerals alike, than diversity-based realities, such as “love” - the specification of will, the fabric, the manner in which it is of value.
Castes are touchstones for value, and self-value. A lower case derives its self-value from revenge, instinct, direct gratification.
A higher caste creates its self-valuing consciously, by every act it tries to increase its standard.
It is not necessary to distinguish into 4 castes. We can simply observe two, to begin with.
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03-28-2013, 11:39 AM Post: #2
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
This is just classes.
Caste implies reincarnation.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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03-28-2013, 12:39 PM Post: #3
pezer Offline
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
Hmm… Two is an ok number. It’s the loneliest number since the number one, and perhaps that makes it good for sowing.
In the Sawelios sense, maybe, there is a reencarnative value to this ordering.
Class implies economy, a truly specific order of vlauation (a rapist one, as Nietzsche might have called it). My distaste for Marx…
Yet I can accept the step, if Nietzsche as the Hammer, Marx as the Shoe. I honestly haven’t even read much Marx. Some stuff about fetishism I really liked, but seemed oh so cold. Maybe the Earth we step on is still Hot, much too hot for comfort in barefootedness.
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03-28-2013, 01:01 PM Post: #4
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
You can sum up Marx in Virginia Woolf’s A Room of One’s Own
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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03-29-2013, 11:21 PM Post: #5
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
Quote:
Class implies economy, a truly specific order of vlauation (a rapist one, as Nietzsche might have called it). My distaste for Marx…
No, class only implies standard.
Value-sociology… organize in terms of values, real ones, held ones, proper ones, existential ones. Not Marxist ones, metaphysical, moral, universal distinctions.
We communicate values. Classes are aggregates of communicating networks. They are not strictly isolated, but they are fundamentally differing.
This new soup, the egalitarian humanist world is only now becoming evident to me as a new lower class, to a new pyramid. From this great mass of people refusing to “admit color” (I dont know how to translate this poker term) eventually something must break out, upward, to form a second class, a higher one, that refuses to deal in terms of what is understood by all. A new standard, unattainable by the lower class. From our modern-primordial soup, this subdomain “land” must arise. We can’t and won’t all forever be swimming, with Luca Brasi, etc.
Quote:
Yet I can accept the step, if Nietzsche as the Hammer, Marx as the Shoe. I honestly haven’t even read much Marx. Some stuff about fetishism I really liked, but seemed oh so cold. Maybe the Earth we step on is still Hot, much too hot for comfort in barefootedness.
Me neither. I prefer Hegel when it comes to dialectics. But I respect Marx as an extension of Hegel. And I can only read Hegel in terms of VO and WtP.
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03-30-2013, 09:59 AM (This post was last modified: 03-30-2013 10:03 AM by Heathen.) Post: #6
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
(03-28-2013 10:21 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
Some individuals are simply not able to think, to ‘entertain’ themselves by thought. These people are a lower caste
I dunno what is meant by thought here, but people who entertain themselves with thoughts seems to include a lot of mental noise wankery focused people also. And then there are those who would never open certain kinds of philosophy etc. works, but who can more directly get stuff, and don’t really get into wordy wordy mind stuff. Which is not to say they are not thinking, but it’s not the first way I would try to describe them. And these are definitely not lower caste. Though, certainly, over history and through many lives they sure have been treated as lower caste.
Quote:
A lower case derives its self-value from revenge, instinct, direct gratification.
A higher caste creates its self-valuing consciously, by every act it tries to increase its standard.
OK, getting a better sense here. The artistic type can definitely be included here, though why limit the way one self-defines. Why can’t one have both and be better for it, rather than cutting off from one facet of being human to be ‘higher’.
It’s like some age old competition between chakras if you’ll pardon my sanskrit, the upper ones saying only they are good.
Heart attack.
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03-30-2013, 12:31 PM Post: #7
pezer Offline
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
I think the very name Natural World Order indicates that our message is a different one.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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03-30-2013, 01:36 PM Post: #8
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
I imagine most secret societies started this way.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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03-30-2013, 01:44 PM Post: #9
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
(03-30-2013 12:31 PM)pezer Wrote:
I think the very name Natural World Order indicates that our message is a different one.
OK. I didn’t know that everyone had the same system of thought here.
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03-30-2013, 05:39 PM Post: #10
pezer Offline
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
You move in leaps… You risk running around the world without stepping more than a few times.
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Last edited by Fixed Cross on Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fixed Cross
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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:31 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Odysseus ist allmählich zum schlauen Sclaven geworden (in der Komödie).
Odysseus is gradually to clever slave become (in the comedy)
Aeschylus hat den freien Faltenwurf des Gemüths aufgebracht.
Aeschylus has the free drapery of the mood angered.
Trivialität des Prozesses: außerordentlich naiver Stand des Socrates, des fanatischen Dialektikers.
Triviality of the process: extraordinarily naive position of Socrates, the fanatical Dialectics.
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04-14-2013, 09:59 AM (This post was last modified: 04-14-2013 10:00 AM by JSS.) Post: #2
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RE: German
American English
WTF!!
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04-19-2013, 07:31 PM Post: #3
pezer Offline
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RE: German
Mais la, c’est tres beau. Deja, je peus m’imaginer un peu l’esprit Alemagne, pas si loin de l’esprit Spagniol traditionaliste. Comme tu disais, plus Latin que les langues Romantiques!
O como se dice en criollo, más papista que el papa.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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Case in Favor of Caste system
03-28-2013, 10:21 AM (This post was last modified: 03-28-2013 10:22 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #1
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Case in Favor of Caste system
There are two types, at least, of human affiliation. Intellectual (“spiritual”) and physical (instinctual).
These realities operate throughout each other, but nevertheless, they are marked in individuals. Some individuals are simply not able to think, to ‘entertain’ themselves by thought. These people are a lower caste. It is not useful to deny this. Reality is regulated by man in the measure in which he admits to himself that it exists. This is easier when it comes to “objective” phenomena, things that go for all species and minerals alike, than diversity-based realities, such as “love” - the specification of will, the fabric, the manner in which it is of value.
Castes are touchstones for value, and self-value. A lower case derives its self-value from revenge, instinct, direct gratification.
A higher caste creates its self-valuing consciously, by every act it tries to increase its standard.
It is not necessary to distinguish into 4 castes. We can simply observe two, to begin with.
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03-28-2013, 11:39 AM Post: #2
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
This is just classes.
Caste implies reincarnation.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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03-28-2013, 12:39 PM Post: #3
pezer Offline
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
Hmm… Two is an ok number. It’s the loneliest number since the number one, and perhaps that makes it good for sowing.
In the Sawelios sense, maybe, there is a reencarnative value to this ordering.
Class implies economy, a truly specific order of vlauation (a rapist one, as Nietzsche might have called it). My distaste for Marx…
Yet I can accept the step, if Nietzsche as the Hammer, Marx as the Shoe. I honestly haven’t even read much Marx. Some stuff about fetishism I really liked, but seemed oh so cold. Maybe the Earth we step on is still Hot, much too hot for comfort in barefootedness.
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03-28-2013, 01:01 PM Post: #4
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
You can sum up Marx in Virginia Woolf’s A Room of One’s Own
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I’m full up?
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03-29-2013, 11:21 PM Post: #5
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
Quote:
Class implies economy, a truly specific order of vlauation (a rapist one, as Nietzsche might have called it). My distaste for Marx…
No, class only implies standard.
Value-sociology… organize in terms of values, real ones, held ones, proper ones, existential ones. Not Marxist ones, metaphysical, moral, universal distinctions.
We communicate values. Classes are aggregates of communicating networks. They are not strictly isolated, but they are fundamentally differing.
This new soup, the egalitarian humanist world is only now becoming evident to me as a new lower class, to a new pyramid. From this great mass of people refusing to “admit color” (I dont know how to translate this poker term) eventually something must break out, upward, to form a second class, a higher one, that refuses to deal in terms of what is understood by all. A new standard, unattainable by the lower class. From our modern-primordial soup, this subdomain “land” must arise. We can’t and won’t all forever be swimming, with Luca Brasi, etc.
Quote:
Yet I can accept the step, if Nietzsche as the Hammer, Marx as the Shoe. I honestly haven’t even read much Marx. Some stuff about fetishism I really liked, but seemed oh so cold. Maybe the Earth we step on is still Hot, much too hot for comfort in barefootedness.
Me neither. I prefer Hegel when it comes to dialectics. But I respect Marx as an extension of Hegel. And I can only read Hegel in terms of VO and WtP.
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03-30-2013, 09:59 AM (This post was last modified: 03-30-2013 10:03 AM by Heathen.) Post: #6
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
(03-28-2013 10:21 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
Some individuals are simply not able to think, to ‘entertain’ themselves by thought. These people are a lower caste
I dunno what is meant by thought here, but people who entertain themselves with thoughts seems to include a lot of mental noise wankery focused people also. And then there are those who would never open certain kinds of philosophy etc. works, but who can more directly get stuff, and don’t really get into wordy wordy mind stuff. Which is not to say they are not thinking, but it’s not the first way I would try to describe them. And these are definitely not lower caste. Though, certainly, over history and through many lives they sure have been treated as lower caste.
Quote:
A lower case derives its self-value from revenge, instinct, direct gratification.
A higher caste creates its self-valuing consciously, by every act it tries to increase its standard.
OK, getting a better sense here. The artistic type can definitely be included here, though why limit the way one self-defines. Why can’t one have both and be better for it, rather than cutting off from one facet of being human to be ‘higher’.
It’s like some age old competition between chakras if you’ll pardon my sanskrit, the upper ones saying only they are good.
Heart attack.
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03-30-2013, 12:31 PM Post: #7
pezer Offline
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
I think the very name Natural World Order indicates that our message is a different one.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
You move in leaps… You risk running around the world without stepping more than a few times.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:34 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
(03-30-2013 09:59 AM)Heathen Wrote:
Quote:
A lower case derives its self-value from revenge, instinct, direct gratification.
A higher caste creates its self-valuing consciously, by every act it tries to increase its standard.
OK, getting a better sense here. The artistic type can definitely be included here, though why limit the way one self-defines. Why can’t one have both and be better for it, rather than cutting off from one facet of being human to be ‘higher’.
It’s like some age old competition between chakras if you’ll pardon my sanskrit, the upper ones saying only they are good.
Heart attack.
No one says anything about the lower ones being “not good” - they’re just low. The lower chakra’s aren’t as high as the higher chakra’s. Still they are equally required, they need to do the physical work, be the instincts.
Our modern problem then would seem to be the elevation of the lower chakra’s to the realm of the higher ones, and since that is really impossible as there simply isn’t the capacity for creative thought in the gut, the debasing of the higher ones into the realm of the lower ones.
Right now, everything is measured in terms of the lower chakra’s / castes. And there it comes again - relativism, is the moral thoughtmodel that justifies/enables this.
The beauty of the chakra system is that it has an ascending order. All is required, and sure, all stand relative to each other, but that does not mean that there isn’t a hierarchy. The relativity is due to the hierarchical ordering. If there weren’t that difference, there would be no relation. Most western spiritualism focuses now on the re integration of the lower instincts into the moral mind. That is all good and well and required when one has repressed them, but in order to integrate them, they have to be refined. They have to be “translated” into the higher mind.
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03-31-2013, 12:12 AM Post: #12
pezer Offline
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
Hell, the higher mind itself needs to prepare itself.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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03-31-2013, 08:55 AM Post: #13
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
(03-30-2013 09:29 PM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
Our modern problem then would seem to be the elevation of the lower chakra’s to the realm of the higher ones, and since that is really impossible as there simply isn’t the capacity for creative thought in the gut, the debasing of the higher ones into the realm of the lower ones.
I do see that pattern in many subcultures, absolutely. Though after a few thousand years of saying the lower chakras were evil - via judgments of bodies passion anger emotions in general, sex, intensity, desire…-there was bound to be an overbalancing. And yet still these judgments are out there also. There is a neo-freedom. A consumerist, passive wanking the lower chakras in privacy or in mobs. Fashionable lower chakra expression.
Try actually expressing the lower chakras in an individual way, with lower chakra insights into what is actually going on, and you will see how strong the judgments about the lower chakras still are out there, even in the groups that seem to worship them.
Then you have all the ratinalist, academic, philosophical, science groupie utter hatred of the lower chakras except for their own righteous wrath at the ‘irrational’ people they do not quite understand but something sets off their rage and urge to smite like some old pagan diety.
To me I see upper chakra thoughts masquerading as freed up lower chakras. It’s mostly ideas of freedom, ideas of ‘release’ and cooltoexpress.
Then the mass of the power structure is very cool, upper chakra, really rather quite BLUE pulling the strings, stimulating and distracting and working the fundamentalists up into frenzies also. It is a BLUE society conquering the West and everyting will be the WEST soon enough in any way that matters.
Quote:
Right now, everything is measured in terms of the lower chakra’s / castes. And there it comes again - relativism, is the moral thoughtmodel that justifies/enables this.
Relativism is an upper chakra creation. Not that you are saying it isn’t.
Quote:
The beauty of the chakra system is that it has an ascending order. All is required, and sure, all stand relative to each other, but that does not mean that there isn’t a hierarchy. The relativity is due to the hierarchical ordering. If there weren’t that difference, there would be no relation. Most western spiritualism focuses now on the re integration of the lower instincts into the moral mind. That is all good and well and required when one has repressed them, but in order to integrate them, they have to be refined. They have to be “translated” into the higher mind.
I would say quite the opposite. The mind needs to [gently at first] release its grip on everything. Blue control and habitual insight, seeing what it believes and punishing what it thinks it does not like before it understands it. After thousands of years of being raped in the dark by priests and nobles and soldiers, and then in the light being told they were the root of evil and creators of darkness
the lower chakras don’t need to be refined, they need to be rescued and given some water, a sandwich and time to breathe and relax. And because this entails the mind actually releasing, for a time - though the mind thinks it will be forever - the mind thinks it will go insane, become a mass murderer, never have that precious handle it thinks it has on reality.
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03-31-2013, 08:58 AM Post: #14
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
(03-30-2013 05:39 PM)pezer Wrote:
You move in leaps… You risk running around the world without stepping more than a few times.
There are always risks. Don’t know if you meant ‘one’ or me in particular. I see a lot of leaping here, even in assessment.
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03-31-2013, 11:04 AM Post: #15
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
Just that to say that the name Natural World Order says something new about power structures is saying something. It’s almost a raw element, not reducible, certainly, to adherence and non-adherence.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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03-31-2013, 11:15 AM Post: #16
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
(03-31-2013 11:04 AM)pezer Wrote:
Just that to say that the name Natural World Order says something new about power structures is saying something. It’s almost a raw element, not reducible, certainly, to adherence and non-adherence.
Sure, but we have seen new power structures, even ones based on some good knowledge about what was problematic in the older ones, do some fairly anti-life stuff. So just because the forum is populated by people that feel some alignment with a very abstract ideal does not mean there are no seeds of problems in their conceptions.
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03-31-2013, 11:28 AM Post: #17
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
I feel no responsibility for the actions of those I don’t feel I can challenge to a duel to the death.
Science is found in the question “how do you know?”
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04-12-2013, 09:21 AM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2013 09:25 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #18
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
(03-31-2013 08:55 AM)Heathen Wrote:
I do see that pattern in many subcultures, absolutely. Though after a few thousand years of saying the lower chakras were evil - via judgments of bodies passion anger emotions in general, sex, intensity, desire…-there was bound to be an overbalancing. And yet still these judgments are out there also. There is a neo-freedom. A consumerist, passive wanking the lower chakras in privacy or in mobs. Fashionable lower chakra expression.