Mr Reasonable wrote:What about the part where he said that because you can choose whether to pay off debt that you have freedom?
Mr Reasonable wrote:And do they get to make choices in that game they play with the system?
Mr Reasonable wrote:But you might find it hard to prove.
What's easy to prove is that someone can borrow money at a percentage of interest that it lower than the return they could make investing it, and that then they could pay the debt and still have extra money which they could spend on a variety of things depending on what they choose.
Ecmandu wrote:Nobody wants [debt]
Carleas wrote:Ecmandu wrote:Nobody wants [debt]
This is false. People voluntarily take on debt all the time, and voluntarily choose not to pay it off when they could. This is true of rich and poor people, of businesses large and small, and nations at all stages of development.
Ecmandu wrote:Mr Reasonable wrote:But you might find it hard to prove.
What's easy to prove is that someone can borrow money at a percentage of interest that it lower than the return they could make investing it, and that then they could pay the debt and still have extra money which they could spend on a variety of things depending on what they choose.
I may not seem like it... But I'm a really nefarious fucking dude... I know how to get laid, and how to make money ... If I can figure it out, I guarantee people are using it. I'm anti nefariousness though ... So I'm broke with no women.
Ecmandu wrote:I would argue that people either want debt because they think they can get away with it[...]
Mr Reasonable wrote:Ecmandu wrote:Mr Reasonable wrote:But you might find it hard to prove.
What's easy to prove is that someone can borrow money at a percentage of interest that it lower than the return they could make investing it, and that then they could pay the debt and still have extra money which they could spend on a variety of things depending on what they choose.
I may not seem like it... But I'm a really nefarious fucking dude... I know how to get laid, and how to make money ... If I can figure it out, I guarantee people are using it. I'm anti nefariousness though ... So I'm broke with no women.
I don't think who you are or what you personally do pertains to the debate at hand.
Carleas wrote:Ecmandu wrote:Nobody wants [debt]
This is false. People voluntarily take on debt all the time, and voluntarily choose not to pay it off when they could. This is true of rich and poor people, of businesses large and small, and nations at all stages of development.
James S Saint wrote:That doesn't mean that they "want debt". That merely means that they want something else enough to tolerate debt.
Carleas wrote:You're being a little pedantic here. People say things like, "I want a job that pays well". That's a totally normal, meaningful use of the word 'want' and we all understand what is meant. It does not change anything that the speaker may greatly prefer to be paid well without having a job.
Similarly, people can want to take out a loan to buy a house. Sure, they'd love to just be given a house, but that doesn't mean they don't want to take out the loan, to take on the debt.
But the word 'want' is not the point. The point is that debt can be and frequently is part of a desirable outcome that people choose for themselves without coercion.
Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:I wouldn't say humans are livestock, but more analogous to bees, insects, or worker drones.
jerkey wrote:And sometimes debt is not voluntarily assumed, sometimes liens are transferred inter generationally, as when predecessors die with extremely heavily mortgaged expensive property, with bleak outlook of payout in four or five generations or more, as in the cases of downward mobility.
jerkey wrote:The ruined aristocrats of modern times with titles but no money are also privy to this form of slavery to land and title.
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