Humans Are Livestock

Well… That’s basically what the stock market is, a margin of an investment on debt for profit …

The us is basically a stock with a high margin (severely in debt) that countries are betting on… That doesn’t mean the us isn’t in debt!

I’d argue even further to point out that we have a stratified economy that depends on debt to assure interest or property for the fat cats… The illusion of discretion is an aspect of how highly evolved this system of accumulation has become.

This line of discussion seems only to be confusing things. Payments due on debt are among the necessities that are paid out of earnings, leaving discretionary income. I don’t buy the argument that as long as the debt persists, the discretionary income isn’t ‘really’ discretionary, because while one has the option of paying down debt, one also has the option of not paying it down. That is a real choice, one of many beyond the set of choices actual slaves have. Do you see any of the preceding discussion as contradicting that? If so, could you spell out the point in some more detail?

I don’t think it’s confusing things too much …

For example, property taxes are rent, and this is a debt , but additionally, it either does or doesn’t cause debt… I would argue that most people are causing debt in this form of rent… Thus, their discretionary income is bubbled or debt ridden, a lie, they are slaves to the debt system.

What about the part where he said that because you can choose whether to pay off debt that you have freedom?

Debt is endemic to society … Nobody wants it, and most people never pay it off … They game the system until they die.

And do they get to make choices in that game they play with the system?

You can argue that elites have planned debt ridden “discretion” as something to write off on the expense account.

I’m actually not kidding here, or being fecitious!

But you might find it hard to prove.

What’s easy to prove is that someone can borrow money at a percentage of interest that it lower than the return they could make investing it, and that then they could pay the debt and still have extra money which they could spend on a variety of things depending on what they choose.

I may not seem like it… But I’m a really nefarious fucking dude… I know how to get laid, and how to make money … If I can figure it out, I guarantee people are using it. I’m anti nefariousness though … So I’m broke with no women.

This is false. People voluntarily take on debt all the time, and voluntarily choose not to pay it off when they could. This is true of rich and poor people, of businesses large and small, and nations at all stages of development.

There’s a difference between informed consent and desired informed consent…

Do you want me to punch you in the face or kick you in the shin?

I would argue that people either want debt because they think they can get away with it, or maybe they’re just lonely… Aside from that, I don’t think debt is a desired informed consent issue.

I don’t think who you are or what you personally do pertains to the debate at hand.

People don’t generally do things just because they can. The fact that people can often “get away with” carrying debt, i.e. carry debt to their benefit, is only part of the equation. They can get away with it, and it actually benefits them.

Well… You said it was hard to prove, and I stated that of I can figure it out, I’m sure people are doing it! That was my whole point… Perhaps over the top though …

That doesn’t mean that they “want debt”. That merely means that they want something else enough to tolerate debt.

Debt has never benefited me. It’s a burden of a perceived failure, no matter how it arises.

This is a semantic distinction. The “something else” they want is the cash, which is just the obverse of the debt.

In any case, people freely choose to take on debt because they expect it to benefit them and they are frequently right. To my mind, it is fair to say that they wanted that, and even more clearly that they wanted it more than the other available options. If you prefer to use some circumscribed, technical, obtuse or otherwise idiosyncratic definition of ‘to want’, by all means.

Damn you guys, I’m trying to leave…

I made a really weird post in this thread …

BUT!! The point is that people would rather be given something without debt… James is correct …

Informed consent can be…

Here’s your choice … I punch you in the shoulder or kick you in the nuts!

James is articulating this aspect of want and consent!

The issue at hand is that getting away with debt is being given something… But it was being given something with debt, people prefer to be given something without debt.

You’re being a little pedantic here. People say things like, “I want a job that pays well”. That’s a totally normal, meaningful use of the word ‘want’ and we all understand what is meant. It does not change anything that the speaker may greatly prefer to be paid well without having a job.

Similarly, people can want to take out a loan to buy a house. Sure, they’d love to just be given a house, but that doesn’t mean they don’t want to take out the loan, to take on the debt.

But the word ‘want’ is not the point. The point is that debt can be and frequently is part of a desirable outcome that people choose for themselves without coercion.

There’s a big difference between debt and overhead for one…

A person would much rather buy a house than take a loan for two…