Nietzsche and Hemingway

Gays do not typically love violence. They do not typically get crazy when a woman rejects them. They never SOUND masculine. They do not understand the masculine heart well enough to seduce man to his true love; war. Women do understand in their way. Hetero Man - Hetero Woman - Gay Man - Lesbian. That is how identification powers seem to be separated.

(Yes , this is based on social experience with each group. And yes it is profiling and pointless. It is just that to think N was gay one must have either not read N or never talked to a gay person. Hemingway gay??? That sounds absurd but Ill have to look into it.)

Jakob,
Thanks for your insights into this poem. I’ve read much N. & H. The poem was not intended to show that either was gay. But I can see how it was interpreted in that way from my using “worm of youth” and “phallic gun” to symbolize a certain type of masculinity. Unfortunately for us poets who read their ideas into things, Freud once said, “Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.” That N and H were “latent homosexuals” is a Freudian interpretation of the poem.
N.'s worm of youth was penis thinking. He attended a brothel. He caught syphilis (SIC). H’s phallic gun was his final surrender to the violence of his masculinity. Only a cursory reading of the poem and of writings of N. and H. would suggest that they were latent homosexuals.

See Will Durant’s “The Story of Philosophy” for a good view of Nietzsche’s last days.

duplicate

the aversion to violence is directly related to how sensitive one is. it has not much to do with ones sexual orientation, for example, you could be some effiminate peace love hippie who is sexually attracted to women because of how fairy-like they are.

He did once say something along the lines of reabsorbtion of semen into the blood was the best form of nourishment. Do you think he meant we should go easy on the whackin’ or…or, oh god it’s to horrible to think about.

It was to Orbie that I responded defiantly. Your poem hadn’t evoked these ideas.

Penis-thinking… its rather that erect objects follow similar purposes as the penis; penetration.

Not every long thing is a reference to a penis. A penis is simply the most sensitive long thing to us.

Z - sperm is the most concentrated protein gel available. That I know this does not make me attracted to consuming it. Cleopatra is told to use sperm as an ointment for her face. I suspect Beyonce of the same.

Nietzsche has no effeminate qualities. I am more gay than he is and I am not at all sexually or attracted to men. Even Caesar is more gay than Nietzsche.

I see. So do you think he was hittin’ Lou from underneath while Ree hit it from behind, or vice versa?

I know you’re joking but FTR: Freddie was referring to the Brahmin and abstinent hermits like himself. The Brahmin/priests believed semen was absorbs into the blood when it wasn’t expelled. The nutritious and psychological power that comes from overcoming the sexual urge and refocusing one’s energy is what Nietzsche was on about. Nothing to do with gayness.

There is a world of difference between gay and latent homosexual. The straightest people, including those of historical notice, have had latency in this regard. Back then it was shameful, a disease, like whacking.
Things change, viewpoints change, and the story
does not quite end there. Usually the first ines to protest, the line can be applied, ’ he who protest the most’. This was also mentioned of
Hitler, and given as the reason for his vehement
eradication efforts of Roehm.

Now, there are absolutely no eyebrows raised in this regard. Lawrence Olivier was bi and I remember
seeing his late wife, Vivian Leigh on the then popular
David Susskind show,saying that this gay baiting
thing is getting to be a bore. And this was way back in the seventies.

The only ones of true knowledge re their orientation are long gone and buried. Of Ceasar was said, that
he was a man for all women and a woman for all men.
Talking about changing attitudes!

Being dominated by a woman isn’t effeminate, behaving like a woman is. All strong men want strong women, There is no joy in life being up against nothing.

Methinks Nietzsche was trying to express the Tragic, in the utterly unsophisticated 19th century ways of photography.

HItler could have fucked anything. He ended up fucking the whole world in the ass and hard. He was definitely homosexual, heterosexual, animal-sexual, alien-sexual, plant-sexual - so desperate for penetration that he even tried to fuck Russia.

I just know a lot of gay people, more than half latent, and I know Nietzsche very well.
Oscar Wilde, that’s what Nietzsche would be if he was homosexual, latent or not.

Essential to the homosexual - seems -that he is narcissist, which Nietzsche, unlike Socrates, was not; He desired the Übermensch precisely because he was not very much in love with himself at all. His proud dissatisfaction with himself is rooted in a deep heterosexuality. In fact the Superman can be said to be an ultimate Heteros; a distance.

Caesar must have been a bit of a shapeshifter. His stories are so darned inerstin - have you read rex Warners Young Caesar and Imperial Caesar.

If Jung is correct there is always some degree of anima in the male psyche. This is even physical. Men have tits. What are they good for? In my poem I’m portraying the last days of two men whose psyches may have been animus dominated.

Where have I heard this before. If a man can be dominated by a woman he is effeminate. If a man pretends to let a woman dominate him, as in a role play, he’s a clown. Ergo, men are not dominated by women under any circumstances unless they are a joke.

What did N’s and H’s tragic ends have to do with their relationships with women?

Good info.

duplicate

I dont know where you heard that before Zootie but not in the post you responded to! That, as you can read, said more or less the opposite.

Ier - N was a philosopher, who wrote about The Tragic.

His first book was called The Birth Of Tragedy.
This is what I referred to.

The tragic implies more than a discontent, it is a gross romantic disillusionment.

Nietzche’s sense of tragedy is really not within it, but

the disappearance of it. The representation of the sense of the tragically romantic, looses value, in essence this can as well be found in Hemmingway,

and the story of the Old Man and the Sea, is a literal metaphor of this loss. With Camus, the boulder repeatedly can be recovered in it’s recurrent plunging

back, bit this hope in Hemmingway is missing.
It is the latency of tragedy, which H is covering, the confusion arising between the romantic idiom and the

reductively, but falsely reduced nominal interpretation. Upon the shoulders of pessimism,

does N try to recover the heroic and the tragic.
Latency as literary idiom transcends it’s self, even while engaging it. This, for Nietzche

is a form of deliverance, somewhat line with Marcus Aurelius’ stoic dictum of the disingenuity and artificiality of untried wisdom, however he disagrees with it , in principle.

In this sense, latency gains a tour de force by bring beck the tragic form of it, and overcoming its

figurative implications, in the present sense, devoid of representation as the understanding, qua the will.
It creates the formal, and plastic Appollonian
aesthetic of mere sculpture. It gains in empathy and
understanding.

It is in this scene that a

critical examination may proceed.

It is in this sene that Dali extends the formalism into the surrealism of Metamorphosis of Narcissus.
A blanket category of narcissism is exactly, not within
this hidden subtlety, and the dreams within the
surreal is, what is hidden away. The implications being vastly different.

Jacob, this struggle posed beneath the veneer of formalistic argument, may have forced an aphoristic approach. Other than that, it is hardly credible. That
I may have been, why, ‘Why I Write Such Good Books’, met with such harshly worded attacks by classicists’.

It is not Romantic.

The Romantic and Tragic pathos are not much compatible.

The tragic knows the war of the sexes and the futility of individual will.