Math Fun

This tells me that you don’t understand the logic of the problem. The Guru’s statement does not “only […] provide a moment to begin”, it provides crucial information that makes a logical deduction possible that was impossible before (in the proof by mathematical induction, her statement provides the base case).

Again, take the situation of 2 islanders who don’t know their eye color, but are familiar with this problem. Without the guru telling them that she sees at least one islander with some eye color, neither islander can deduce his eye color. Unless when you say they “already knew the puzzle” you really mean they “already possessed the information that the Guru provides”.

EDIT: alternatively, replace the Guru’s statement with, “Begin deducing your eye color now!” If the Guru had said that, no one could deduce their eye color.

Don’t reintroduce your blindness on that one too. Again, it is irrelevant that the syllogism part of your proposal works. Other syllogisms work even better.

James, it looks like your position is based on the possibility that someone can logically deduce the color of their eyes based solely on the color of the eyes of the people around them. Is that right?

I don’t remember all of the detailed stipulations of that one. I’m not interested in starting it up again.

:laughing:
OK, James. Not like it’s been half of the discussion for 10+ pages now or anything. Not like you’ve provided a whole lot of awfully confident objections in your last few posts to an argument you “don’t remember” and aren’t interested in discussing. Not like your interest faded when you were backed into acknowledging that your best argument is that it might be possible for a person to deduce their eye color by looking at a group of other people with eyes.

It’s OK James.

:laughing:
And “it’s OK” that we both know that you aren’t going to change your story one iota regardless of anything said. It isn’t like we haven’t been through that story for 20 pages before. It isn’t like this new puzzle is going down a different path. And it isn’t like you would ever be able to actually prove what it requires you to prove.

So it’s OK, Carl.

Mmmm… Like how I can’t prove that looking at a crowd of people isn’t enough to tell me my eye color…

Mmmm… Like looking at a pattern of colors in a circle of which you are a part isn’t enough for you to deduce your color.

Nor do I need to prove that, since that’s not my claim (unlike how your claim is actually that just looking at a group of people will give someone sufficient information to deduce their own eye color). In both cases, it’s the situation and the additional premises provided by the Guru/Master that make the deduction possible.

No. You needed to prove that it was impossible. :icon-rolleyes:

Carleas and James are both getting a 3 day ban.

They certainly know how to take the fun out of math. :evilfun:

I tried to get James to discuss the Blue Eye problem privately way back, but he stopped replying. Which is just to say, I’m to blame for this disruption.

I’m having fun. Maybe if you developed a strong opinion about the Blue Eye problem or the Master Logician problem, you’d have fun too!

Two egos trying to wrestle each other to the ground.

Nobody else thinks that it’s fun.

Get over yourselves.

Shove it up your ass, wuss. You hide then try to jump in to make big of yourself. Then jump away again, never facing reality. Get over your insecurity and get off your pretentious high horse. Be man enough to just be part of the fun and you won’t trigger so much lack of it.

LOL

It’s too easy.

Take your own advice chump. You were the one who came onto this thread with demeaning rhetoric … that you are still spewing.

LOL

gone south

Carleas,

It dawned on me that you are making the same mistake as Newton and a great many science philosophers ever since. Newton heard about the idea of a “gravity force”, from Hooke I think it was. If the force called gravity was real, a certain reasoning would follow, a syllogism of logic. He then made measurements to verify the reasoning. Because his measurements turned out to substantiate the reasoning that stemmed from the idea of a gravity force, it became scientific LAW that gravity was due to the “force of gravity”. Most people today still believe in that force of gravity because “it is proven”.

But then later Einstein comes along and proposes the idea of Relativity. Einstein explains that the “force of gravity” supposedly reaching out to affect things at a distance doesn’t really make much sense and what makes better sense is the idea that time and distance are merely relative to an observer. From that, the effect of gravity can be logically explained as a “warping of spacetime” rather than a “force of gravity”. Again working out the logic, the syllogism, based upon the assumption of warping rather than forcing, a proposed “theory” (rather than “law”) is formed. Measurements are made that verify that the warping is even more accurate than the forcing. Einstein takes the forefront being the genius and “Father of Modern Physics”, putting Newton down.

In both cases, an assumption was made, logic was constructed, and measurements were made to confirm that the priori assumption was true. And in both cases, their assumptions turned out to actually be false. There is no gravity force, nether is spacetime warped.

You are doing that exact same thing with those puzzles. You begin with “if we assume that … then make this syllogism … then we get a result that solves the puzzle. Therefore the assumption must have been true.”

That video that I showed spoke of the same issue, just because your theory (assumptions and following logic) matches the “puzzle constrictions” doesn’t mean that your theory is correct. This is something that science has encountered enough to be very aware of at this time. Thus they demand “falsifiability”, requiring that nothing counter could possibly be true. And that is what I am requiring of you in those puzzles, because I can already see possible counter true theories to the ones you propose.

If P → Q
Q
therefore P
petitio principii

All I am really doing is demanding that you be modern-day scientific in your method.

…and I think that I’ll make a separate thread for this.