If it’s taken for granted that am omnicient being knows what will take place in advance of its occurrence, then it is true that He would know tomorrow there will be a sea battle. In this context there is no difference between “will” and “must”. The fact that you never expressed disagreement with the determinism part of my father’s argument is only half of the solution. If you don’t see the validity in his observation regarding conscience and the fact that nothing on this earth can make you do to another what you don’t want to do, not even God himself, then it’s no wonder you are not that interested in the book. But his observations are accurate.
Nick Trakakis
Again, and again and again: this is the distinction I am not able [here and now] to wrap my head around.
It is as though someone believes that everything we think, feel and do is only as we must – but they “choose” instead to pretend that this is not the case at all. Why? In order to be “practical” about the need for men and women to at least believe that they are freely choosing to either do the right or the wrong thing.
All the while knowing that nothing is ever not as it can only be.
I think that, for determinists, consequentialism only makes sense in relation to non-determinists. A determinist can see how praise and blame matters to non-determinists. This then may cause him to praise and blame non-determinists. And this, in turn, has a completely determinate effect on the latter.
But then he does not demonstrate how this…
The same nature that permits the most heinous crimes, and all the other evils of human relation, is going to veer so sharply in a different direction that all nations on this planet, once the leaders and their subordinates understand the principles involved, will unite in such a way that no more wars will ever again be possible.
…will come about much beyond simply asserting that it will. And yet the world a thousand years ago, the world today and the world a thousand years from now are of a whole. Our parts in it were fated from the moment the law of matter itself came into existence. And none of us are anywhere near to understanding the meaning of that.
Yes, you believe things like this, “in your head”. But until you are able to devise an argument that links these prognostications to the sort of empirical/experiential evidence that will show how what you predict here and now necessitates the existence of the “new world”, you can only be content with just “knowing” that it must be true because Lessans predicted it. Sure, you can always keep insisting that Lessans is right even if no one else has “confirmed” his observations. But I sincerely doubt you will manage to convince many others of this. Until and unless his arguments are in fact more substantively demonstrable, it will always just come down basically to either agreeing with or not agreeing with his analysis.
If everything that I think, feel and do is thought, felt and done only because I was utterly compelled to think, feel and do them, well, that comes about as close to being an automaton as I can imagine. To call this actively choosing is like calling the dominoes actively falling. Only the dominoes [unlike us] are completely oblivious to it all.
Again: As though to suggest that if someone does not understand something that is not really all that difficult to understand, they are the problem here. But then all the while you keep agreeing with me that the extent to which anyone does understand it is only as they were ever able to understand it.
My own difficulty here always revolves around this: that, in a world where matter is compelled to interact with other matter only as it must, then nothing we do that some will blame and punish us for [that others will not blame and punish us for] is ever other than what it could be.
Thus others can no more choose freely to blame and punish us [or not blame and punish us] than we can choose freely to do what we do to precipitate these reactions. Absolutely nothing that we think, feel and do is exempt from the laws of matter.
So, if the human mind is just more matter – matter that has evolved to the point where it is able to be conscious of itself as matter inexorably in sync with peacegirl’s design – it would seem [to me] that every single post on this entire thread is just [inevitably] only what it ever could have been.
And what does that tell us about living in a determined world? Well, if you want to rid yourself of the burden that comes with being morally responsible, sure, why not.
In any event, in embracing some capacity to choose my behaviors freely, I am still saddled with this:
If I am always of the opinion that 1] my own values are rooted in dasein and 2] that there are no objective values “I” can reach, then every time I make one particular moral/political leap, I am admitting that I might have gone in the other direction…or that I might just as well have gone in the other direction. Then “I” begins to fracture and fragment to the point there is nothing able to actually keep it all together. At least not with respect to choosing sides morally and politically.
In fact, I often pursue exchanges like this [or those revolving around God and religion] precisely in order to find an antidote for this rather glum way in which view the world around me.
Yes, free will is nothing without objective values. As for determinism: from a determinist perspective, knowing that praise and blame matter to non-determinists will be an entirely deterministic factor which may–depending on the other factors–be decisive in causing determinists to praise and blame non-determinists, etc.
All I can point out here is the ordeal that free will often becomes from the perspective of dasein and conflicting goods. At least for this particular non-determinist.
And that the determinist knows that blame and praise matter to the non-determinist is only ever what she could have known. Just as, for the non-determinist, not knowing that praise and blame are not freely chosen is all that he could have known.
Until, that is, we come into places like this and bump into points of view that conflict with our own. Minds then might change. But even if they do they could not not have changed, right?
Nick Trakakis
Here, too, Tommy [and those reacting to him] are either able to make choices of their own volition or they chose only what they must choose as necessary components of the laws that compel matter to interact as it must.
Now, in a world where we do have some capacity to exercise free will, this exchange can certainly seem reasonable. Objectively, Tommy either does or does not do his homework. And, objectively, he either does or does not have a medical condition that might necessitate his not doing it.
But once we switch over to the hard determinist model everything would seem to be intertwined in the inevitable. We might have different perspectives on it but all of the perspectives would seem to be of a whole. The whole of existence/reality being only what it can ever be once the laws of matter are configured into what they in fact are.
The mystery then revolves more around why they did configure as they did. Why not some other way instead?
Or why does existence even have existence at all?
I’m sorry but this is not a mere assertion. If you believe that’s all it is, then you won’t want to even try to understand this knowledge. And if that’s how it must be, then that’s how it must be.
What do you mean by “none of us are anywhere near to understanding the meaning of that?”… as if to say that anything Lessans’ discovered can’t be that important in light of the fact that there’s so much more to know. Is that what you’re implying? It seems to me you keep alluding to this in an effort to diminish what he has discovered. At least that’s how it appears to me or you wouldn’t keep repeating it.
I’m actually sorry that you feel you are no different than a domino or a computer. In the sense that everything we think, feel, and do is done only because we were compelled to think, feel, and do them, we are very much alike because we are all determined beings. But the fact that we have been given a tremendous gift of thought and reason, we are able to use this ability for our betterment. I believe that the fact that we can only do what we must do wouldn’t bother you nearly as much if you knew for a fact that we are going to live in a much kinder world.
I say this only to people who state that Lessans’ observations are just assertions. I will again say that they are the problem not in the sense that they can do other than what they do, but in the sense that it is their lack of effort to read the book in its entirety that is causing a problem in my opinion. There is no way a person can get the full impact of how these principles play out in real life without reading the text.
Yes, the objective values must be non-conflicting, if only in that no two of them can be equal.
Right.
If you came across a new thing, determinism will only have ultimately non-comparable references as to what it is. In this state of confusion a non-deterministic resolution has to be made, such that the non-comparable values be understood.
Then we must ask if all situations are ultimately new to the consciousness at some point?
If any [new things], then the determinative strains of thought could never know any new things. If it is true that we can know new things, then it is true that there >is< an independent determinator, even where it is also true that there are non-independent determinators.
We physically subjective organic instruments do have free will, and we don’t have it. Both kinds of things are occurring within the conscious sphere, and the unconscious is probably entirely composed of non-independent determinators.
Look, when neuroscientists explore the relationship between the human brain, the human mind and the choices that are made when both are intertwined/embodied in any particular individual, they acquire a wealth of hard data derived from, among other things, the fMRI technology they have at their disposal. They can show how an actual brain seems to function before and after a choice is being made.
Then it is only a matter of closing the gap between the laboratory and the far, far more complex correlation of variables out in the world of far, far more complex human interactions.
What does Lessans offer that is the equivalent of this? How was he not basically just observing people making their choices and then speculating “intellectually”, “theoretically” as to what this might mean?
Yes, I’m talking about that gap between what we think we know about these things “here and now” and all that would need to be known [about the very nature of existence itself] in order that we could determine just how close what we think we know is from what is true ontologically about existence/reality.
Matter evolving into mind only allows for us to speculate about it. And over the decades/centuries our knowledge has veritably exploded. But what is our knowledge today compared to what we will know a hundred, a thousand years from now?
And I suspect that the methodology employed by folks like Richard Feynman and the neuroscientists will bring us a lot closer to the “objective truth” than the methology employed by folks like Lessans.
Yes, but even as you concede, the pudding probably won’t be around to eat for another 1,000 years or so. Whereas, with the neuroscientists, who knows, their experiments may one day [a lot sooner] allow them to predict that X will do some complex task Y a week later. And then a week later X does Y in precisely the manner that the scientists predicted. That would sure help to persuade me to “give up the ghost”.
I am very, very different from the domino. What domino can engage in an exchange like this one? But: if everytime my fingers go up the keyboard and strike particular letters they do so only because they could not not do so, then I may just as well be that domino pertaining to the sequence of events that become my life. The domino is a part of a design that is a part of the design. Just as my own life must be.
And my life is no “gift” from the design. The design “gives” nothing. It just is.
And you are actually only sorry because you could not freely choose not to be.
What difference does that make? They are no less determined to state that, right? Is the effort one may or may not choose to expend in reading his work not also only what one must or must not expend?
And how are they not just assertions by and large when others are not able to devise a methodology from/by which to test his conclusions? Or from/by which to replicate his conclusions?
He offers an answer that is absolutely undeniable. These observations are just as scientific as any MRI. In fact, there is nothing in the brain itself that can show that we move in the direction of greater satisfaction, just like we cannot understand the behavior of a plant by dissecting it. This takes observation. There are things that can be learned in a laboratory setting, but this does not negate Lessans’ discovery.
As far as this discovery is concerned, there IS no gap. Can you understand that? 
So what. Whether we understand how mind evolved into matter or not has no influence on Lessans’ observations. Can you at least grasp what I’m saying, or are you so caught up in your hope that there is a ghost in the machine, that you cannot consider the possibility that we are stuck with determinism, which happens to be the only reason we can achieve peace on earth. God knew what he was doing. 
That’s a very dismissive thing to say. So what you are saying is that Lessans was not objective, which is far from the truth.
The pudding could be around to eat in 25 years if people give it a chance.
Good luck with that. 
How do you know that? How do you know life itself isn’t a gift from something beyond what you or I can understand?
That doesn’t bother me because my choice still comes from my analysis, so the fact that it’s not a free choice doesn’t make me feel like a robot.
It makes a difference because I am trying to pinpoint where the problem lies. It is either a miscommunication or a misunderstanding because the discovery is valid and sound. This in no way contradicts my agreement with you that the extent to which anyone does understand it is only as they were ever able to understand it.
Because his observations were based on years and years of study and analysis. This counts for something. Just because a no free will environment cannot easily be replicated does not mean that it is unfalsifiable nor does it mean that his observations count for nothing.
Nick Trakakis
[b]
[/b]
For all practical purposes:
What does it mean to speak of good and bad here [or even true and false] when one can only speak of anything as one must speak of anything?
Also, in a world where opinions on taxes are ever embedded politically in conflicting goods, there is still no way objectively in which to determine if taxes [or government itself for that matter] is a good or a bad thing.
Also, the manner in which any one particular individual might opine on taxes will always be more or less embodied in dasein.
[b]
[/b]
This, in my opinion, does not change the points that I am raising. Any ethical theory that you subscribe to is embedded in the immutable laws of matter. And there is still no way, either as a consequentialist or a deontologists, to determine objectively how we ought to interact socially, politically and economically.
Or none that I have come across. But that acknowledgment is always part and parcel to my frame of mind here. I can suggest certain things about these relationships, but I have no way in which to demonstrate that they are in fact true objectively.
You say this, and I don’t doubt that you sincerely believe it. In your head. My point is only that you will almost certainly have a great deal of difficulty getting others to believe that it is true in their heads. Let alone in providing scientists with a methodology that would allow them to either verify or falsify his conclusions empirically and experimentally. All I still see is this prediction about the future that is predicated largely on accepting the validity of Lessans’ argument.
How could you possibly know something like this beyond all doubt? You can’t of course. We are all embedded in the gap between what we think we know now and all that we would need to know in order to grasp the totality of existence/reality.
It’s just that, in some respects, science seems to be much closer to nailing that down. But they certainly haven’t nailed down a solution to the conundrum that is dualism.
And the only “ghost” that interest me [here and now] is the one pertaining to…
1] Is there something [anything] analogous to the existence that I know now after I die?
2] Is there a way [sans God] to determine how I ought to live my life given the manner in which I construe dasein and conflicting goods?
All I am getting from you [thus far] is that this is embedded necessarily in immutable laws of matter embedded in the necessity of an unfolding design. And then a prediction about a “new world” which [to me] seems to be derived by and large from the internal/circular logic embedded in an analysis.
And this allows me [once again] to get off the hook by noting that, if what you tell me is true about my “will”, I could not not have been dismissive here. Isn’t that true?
The point is it has little to do with luck. Instead, it involves the scientific pursuit of the relationship between the human brain, the human mind and the choices that are made by both “in tandem” re the existential realty of living our lives from day to day. Can it be known wholly, objectively if there is any measure of free will here?
And that takes me in turn to the questions I raise regarding conflicting goods. In that TED talk video you provided above, Sam Harris offers up his own analysis about the relationship between science and morality. But I don’t buy all of his assumptions either.
Well, I don’t know it beyond all doubt of course. But just as with those who insist that my life is a gift from God, if someone makes the claim that my life may be a “gift” from something not God but beyond that which I understand, then I will ask them to demonstrate more substantively what that might possibly mean.
And at least with God one can imagine an entity able to grant such a gift. But how does one even go about imagining it pertaining to the immutable laws of matter that you have invested in the “design”.
And I still suspect that in some manner Lessans has not abandoned the idea/reality of God himself. Call it a hunch.
The “problem” would seem to lie in the fact that whether someone does or does not choose to read Lessans’ book is really beyond their sovereign control in the sense that one understands this in a world where they are thought to be free to choose something like this.
Or if they do choose to read it but do not agree with it. This is something that can only be what it was always compelled to be given the necessity of matter to unfold only as it can
Which is basically just another way of saying it is not really a problem at all because nothing that unfolds other than as it must unfold can ever be deemed to have unfolded wrongly.
Would you kindly stop saying that? It’s not a belief in my head. 
Accepting the validity of Lessans’ argument is obviously a necessary element. How else can we use an equation that is undeniable without accepting it? And the only way scientists will accept it is if they recognize the validity of his observations. Whether that will require more testing is yet to be known, but a true scientists does not throw out knowledge that, if correct, will revolutionize our world. They do whatever it takes to verify it.
Dualism in regard to free will? There is no dualism. I know beyond all doubt that will is not free because I know Lessans’ observations are accurate.
There is nothing circular about his analysis. You seem to completely ignore his proof that we move in the direction of greater satisfaction. This IS an immutable law. The other side of this equation is that nothing causes man to do anything against his will, which is his second principle. The conventional definition of determinism states that we are caused (or forced) to do what we do by external factors where we are just recipients (like a domino). That implies that something other than us (the designer) can make us do what we don’t want because it was already predetermined as part of the design. This is the source of a lot of confusion. Thirdly, he describes how conscience works in a free will environment and why, in a no free will environment man cannot justify the same actions that heretofore he could have justified. This prevents the action, even though he is still under the auspices of determinism. We do not need free will to escape the natural unfolding of what must be, because embedded within this unfolding is a new way of living but it took centuries for us to get here.
We know you’re off the hook, so there’s no point in repeating this over and over again as if you’ve made some kind of major revelation.
Your words sound like intellectual contraptions that are all in your head. In fact, your words sound like psychobabble because of the very assumptions you are making regarding the mind and the brain as being two entities. If we can only go in one direction, where is there any room for free will? And if we are determined beings, how can we have free will when these two are mutually exclusive ideologies? Your reasoning leaves much to be desired.
Sam Harris knows nothing about this discovery. I will say again that Lessans made no assumptions in regard to these principles and how they extend into real life. This is not theory.
Throughout the whole book he mentions the word God. So your suspicion is correct. How you interpret that is up to you.
[i]Decline and Fall of All Evil: Chapter Two: The Two-Sided Equation
p. 61 By now I hope you
understand that the word God is a symbol for the source of everything
that exists, whereas theology draws a line between good and evil using
the word God only as a symbol for the former. Actually no one gave
me this slide rule, that is, no one handed it to me, but the same force
that gave birth to my body and brain compelled me to move in the
direction of satisfaction and for me to be satisfied after reading Will
Durant’s analysis of free will it was necessary to disagree with what
obviously was the reasoning of logic, not mathematics. I was not
satisfied, which forced me to get rid of my dissatisfaction by proving
that this philosopher did not know whereof he spoke. To say that God
made me do this is equivalent to saying I was compelled, by my
nature, to move in this direction of greater satisfaction, which is
absolutely true.
Definitions mean absolutely nothing where reality is
concerned. Regardless of what words I use to describe the sun;
regardless of how much there is I don’t know about this ball of fire
does not negate the fact that it is a part of the real world, and
regardless of what words I employ to describe God does not change the
fact that He is a reality. You may ask, “But isn’t there quite a
difference between seeing the sun and seeing God? I know that the
description of the sun could be inaccurate, but I know it is a part of
the real world. However, we cannot point to any particular thing and
say this is God, therefore we must assume because of certain things
that God is a reality, correct?”
We assumed energy was contained within the atom until a
discovery was made that proved this, and we also assumed or believed
that there was a design to this universe by the fact that the solar
system moves in such mathematical harmony. Did the sun, moon,
earth, planets and stars just fall into perfect order, or is there some
internal urgency pushing everything in a particular direction? Now
that it has been discovered that man’s will is not free and at the very
moment this discovery is made a mathematical demonstration
compels man to veer sharply in a new direction although still towards
greater satisfaction, then it can be seen just as clearly as we see the sun
that the mankind system has always been just as harmonious as the
solar system only we never knew it because part of the harmony was
this disharmony between man and man which is now being
permanently removed. This discovery also reveals that God is a
mathematical, undeniable reality. This means, to put it another way,
that Man Does Not Stand Alone. Therefore, to say God is good is a
true observation for nothing in this universe when seen in total
perspective is evil since each individual must choose what is better for
himself, even if that choice hurts another as a consequence.
Every human being is and has been obeying God’s will —
Spinoza, his sister, Nageli, Durant, Mendel, Christ and even those
who nailed him to the cross; but God has a secret plan that is going
to shock all mankind due to the revolutionary changes that must
come about for his benefit. This new world is coming into existence
not because of my will, not because I made a discovery (sooner or later
it had to be found because the knowledge of what it means that man’s
will is not free is a definite part of reality), but only because we are
compelled to obey the laws of our nature.[/i]
That is true, but just as we continue to discover new things as part of the unfolding universal design, so too will this discovery be part of this unfolding in time. The problem [as I see it] is that you still have doubts about this discovery which compels you to say what you say. If you had no doubt, you wouldn’t keep alluding to the fact that people may or may not choose to read it. That is understood already, just as some people did or did not choose to read Einstein or Edison. The fact that some people did not choose to read Einstein or Edison did not take away from the fact that those who DID take the time and DID choose to learn more eventually helped to get these important discoveries confirmed by science.
I’m sorry but that is the distinction I always make. Pertaining to both your posts and to my posts. And, for that matter, to all posts.
We all believe many different things here, right? Many conflicting and contradictory things. And where do these beliefs reside if not in our heads?
But: To what extent are we able to demonstrate that what we do believe “in our heads” is in fact objectively true for all rational human beings?
What is this [for all practical purposes] other than you insisting [yet again] that accepting the argument Lessans makes is the only viable place to start?
But: In what ways can scientists test his observations empirically and experimentally? You eschew this part [in my opinion] because there really isn’t much to his argument in this regard.
Here [from my frame of mind] is your argument in a nutshell:
You know this beyond all doubt. But what about the rest of us?
And then I note the manner in which conflicting goods can accommodate conflicting satisfactions. And then the only way you make that go away in the “new world” is to posit a necessary relationship between Lessans’ discovery, the new “univesal consciousness”, the agreement folks sign to become citizens and the inherent disintegration of blame and punishment in this new world.
But, please, at least admit that for now this “new world” does in fact exist only “in your head”. And in Lessans’ books.
But only because his will is as it must be. Since we and the design are of a whole – i.e. we are all “at one with existence” – it is absurd to even speak of anything “external” to it. But the bottom line always remains the same. Reality [however one wishes to define it] is always a necessary component of existence is always a necessary component of the laws of matter.
I type, you read. You type, I read. In the only possible configuration of reality here there can ever be.
Then lets just agree that, for all practical purposes, we construe the implications of this in very different ways. In my view, we are always off the hook in a determined world and only to the extent that we have free will is the hook then back in play.
But I am always willing to bring the manner in which I construe the choices that we make down to earth. In fact, I often situate those choices precisely in the manner in which I have come to understand the meaning of dasein, conflicting good, political economy, the limitations of logic/language, my dilemma pertaining to conflicting value judgments, etc.
How I interpret it is that, when push comes to shove, his philosophy here may well just be one more religious narrative in disguise. Then it comes down to which God. The God of Abraham and Moses?
He argues that:
Every human being is and has been obeying God’s will —Spinoza, his sister, Nageli, Durant, Mendel, Christ and even those who nailed him to the cross; but God has a secret plan that is going to shock all mankind due to the revolutionary changes that must come about for his benefit. This new world is coming into existence not because of my will, not because I made a discovery (sooner or later it had to be found because the knowledge of what it means that man’s will is not free is a definite part of reality), but only because we are compelled to obey the laws of our nature.
You tell me: How is this not just one more assertion? How does he go about substantively taking this belief “out of his head” and demonstrating how and why I and others should believe that, in fact, this is true objectively?
All I can note again then is this: What difference does any of it make if this sequence of events reflects the only possible sequence of events? I have doubts because I must have doubts. Those doubts will dissipate or go away only because they could not not have dissipated or gone away.
Nothing changes – nothing changes ever. Why? Because nothing ever can change the course of an unfolding future wholly in sync with the laws of matter.
I understand your point. That’s why I would appreciate it if you would stop saying that this is in my head because you are implying that what he demonstrated was no more than an assumption, which is completely false. I know I can’t stop you from saying this, but I would hope that you would do this [of your own free will] because you know it bothers me.
He has demonstrated without question why man’s will is not free, but you won’t accept it because you want to believe that there may be a little bit of free will somewhere, somehow, if only scientists can find it. And btw that is not my argument in a nutshell. 
Before I even answer you, what are you talking about when you say it seems to you that these principles are derived by and large from the internal/circular logic embedded in an analysis? What circular logic are you referring to?
Obviously the new world is not here yet but this has nothing to do with the potentiality of the new world based on an immutable law of nature. All you are doing is questioning how all the conflicting values politically and economically can be reconciled in such a way that everyone will be satisfied. I’ve asked you why you refuse to read the book. You don’t have $4.99 to spare? I don’t know if you have kindle or not, but if you do, then you can buy the book and learn how the economic system will be set up in such a way that it will be to everyone’s satisfaction.
It is necessary that I clarify the meaning of determinism because many people believe that if will is not free we are caused to do what we do. If we are caused to do what we do, then something other than us is causing us to do what we do. That’s why this principle is so important for clarification since NOTHING can cause us to do what we do IF we don’t want to do it. This leads into his two-sided equation but if people can’t accept these two principles, I can’t move forward.
You ARE off the hook. This is huge because your will is not free, therefore as we extend the principle (which no philosophers have done because they could not get beyond the implications), we have to begin where they left off. Therefore, we have to see where these principles lead. Most philosophers could not understand how we can stop blaming people who hurt us. Additionally, it is believed that excusing people will cause them to become even less responsible for their actions, both of which are not true.
But free will is not going to come to the rescue. This is your intellectual contraption because it has no basis in reality; it’s only a dream in your head. This is a far cry from Lessans’ demonstration which does have a basis in reality.
He does it through demonstration and example.
It is very true that nothing changes in regard to determinism. Everything unfolds and is in sync with this immutable law of nature, and there is no escape from it (which is a good thing), but it is false that nothing changes. Everything changes once these principles are understood and put into effect, so much so that our world will be unrecognizable as the dream of peace on earth comes to fruition.
To the extent that others are not able to test and then to replicate Lessans’ predictions about the new world other [b][u]than[/b][/u] by agreeing with his analysis/argument, is the extent to which I see his beliefs as residing largely in his head.
After all, if you are going to convince others that his argument is empirically/experientially sound, you must provide them with a methodology to test it.
And, yes, in asking me to consider not predicating my own point here on this rather crucial assumption that I make, you are forced to assume that it is within my power to freely choose not to.
And this is the part of you that, in my view, is able to grasp what being trapped in an immutable, mechanistic design is really all about. You want me to do something that I am not able freely to do. After all, I’m trapped in it too, aren’t I?
There’s the world we live in now. And it is bursting at the seams with blame and punishment. Why? Because most of us believe that both revolve around the assumption we are free to choose our behaviors.
Then Lessans comes around with his disovery that we are not free at all. Furthermore, because of the manner in which he interprets the meaning of this, he embraces principles which, someday, everyone will embrace in turn. And on that day, blame and punishment will cease to exist. Or it will be confined only to those who refuse to become a citizen in a new world now awash in the utopian enlightenment of “universal consciousness”.
From my perspective then the circle revolves around this:
1] Lessans must predict the new world
2] the new world must come about because Lessans must predict it
Unless and until you are able to devise an empirical framework from which to test/replicate his argument, we have only the argument itself to fall back on. And all arguments such as these are comprised of assumptions. I know that mine is.
As I point out:
All I am doing is asking you how Lessans’ discovery obviates the points I raise regarding conflicting satisfactions that revolve around conflicting goods that revolve around the assumption that we blame and punish others for impeding our own satisfaction because we make the further assumption that they were free to choose not to.
And it is not the $4.99 that is at stake here. It is my time. As I have explained a number of times above.
I still fail to see how this clarification rebuts the point I made. There may be nothing “external” to existence/reality causing me to behave as I do, but in being an integral/necessary part of existence/reality, I am ever compelled to do only as I must.
And that takes me back to, “I type this/you read this in the only possible configuration of existence/reality here there can ever be.”
None of this makes me any less off the hook. And none of this explains how, if we are always off the hook in having to choose only what we ever can choose, blaming people now but not blaming people in the new world comes about. Instead, you only predict that it will if we all come to think about these things as Lessans does. But then if we don’t, we are still off the hook.
As I have noted over and again, my own speculation about free will here is indeed predicated largely on the assumption that in some manner “mindful matter” has acquired the capacity to make free choices. I can’t demonstrate it myself and the scientific community seems considerably less inclined to go along. But there is still that gap between what we think we know now about it and all that would need to be known in order to pin the truth to the mat objectively.
Read this for example: opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20 … will/?_r=0
In fact, my main focus here instead is often in grappling with the practical implications of living in in a wholly determined world from the perspective of acquiring an identity…or in dealing with conflicting behaviors that revolve around conflicting value judgments. What can “moral responsibility” mean in a wholly determined world?
How? How does he demonstrate any of what he asserts?
What I meant of course is that nothing changes other than in the manner in which it must change. Including everything that we will ever think, feel and do.
And that’s a good thing if you don’t want to be held responsible for doing the wrong thing in a world where everything we do is necessarily the right thing because it is in fact the only thing that we could have done.
And, sure, I can understand how and why that might comfort and console some. And, indeed, there are any number of times in which I would like it to comfort and console me.
And, perhaps, it is my destiny to be so comforted and consoled. Perhaps [per the design] that’s the whole point of this exchange.
Or, perhaps, the point is instead to yank them out from under you.
If that’s all you think this is, then why are you here? There are probably more interesting threads you can engage in.
Of course it is within your power to “freely” (which only means of your own desire) choose not to, IF THAT’S WHAT YOU WANT. If that’s NOT what you want, then you will not choose it.
I do not consider it trapped just because we are under the control of determinism. You are able to choose “freely” (without physical constraint) what you prefer to choose. Nothing is stopping you from choosing A over B or B over A except for your preference. I don’t consider my understanding of determinism to be mechanistic in the same way you do.
Don’t you think I know that iambiguous?—the fact that people blame because they believe will is free? Your responses show me how little you understand these principles which are undeniable. Do you think you would use the excuse that you don’t have the time to read the book if you knew it actually was a genuine discovery? Of course not. 
[i]Decline and Fall of All Evil: Chapter One: The Hiding Place
p. 27 The belief
in free will was compelled to come about as a corollary of evil for not
only was it impossible to hold God responsible for man’s deliberate
crimes, but primarily because it was impossible for man to solve his
problems without blame and punishment which required the
justification of this belief in order to absolve his conscience.
Therefore, it was assumed that man did not have to do what he did
because he was endowed with a special faculty which allowed him to
choose between good and evil. In other words, if you were called upon
to pass judgment on someone by sentencing him to death, could you
do it if you knew his will was not free? To punish him in any way you
would have to believe that he was free to choose another alternative
than the one for which he was being judged; that he was not compelled
by laws over which he had no control. Man was given no choice but
to think this way and that is why our civilization developed the
principle of ‘an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth,’ and why my
discovery was never found.
No one could ever get beyond this point
because if man’s will is not free it becomes absolutely impossible to
hold him responsible for anything he does. Well, is it any wonder the
solution was never found if it lies beyond this point? How is it
possible not to blame people for committing murder, rape, for stealing
and the wholesale slaughter of millions? Does this mean that we are
supposed to condone these evils, and wouldn’t man become even less
responsible if there were no laws of punishment to control his nature?
Doesn’t our history show that if something is desired badly enough he
will go to any lengths to satisfy himself, even pounce down on other
nations with talons or tons of steel? What is it that prevents the poor
from walking into stores and taking what they need if not the fear of
punishment? The belief that will is not free strikes at the very heart
of our present civilization.
Right at this point lies the crux of a
problem so difficult of solution that it has kept free will in power since
time immemorial. Although it has had a very long reign in the history
of civilization, it is now time to put it to rest, once and for all, by first
demonstrating that this theory can never be proven true. A friend
shared a story with me to show how difficult it is to get through this
established dogma.
[/i]
It doesn’t exist in reality because this discovery remains in obscurity. At this juncture it is only a proposition based on astute observation and sound reasoning which then becomes the groundwork for it to be put into action.
Your posting here is taking longer than it would to read the actual text.
What can ever be is exactly what it must be, but that still leaves us with choices yet to be made. You cannot excuse your actions by saying “it had to be” when it only had to be if you WANTED IT TO BE. You are failing to understand the importance of this statement.
How can anything come about if it doesn’t have an opportunity to come about? A discovery starts out as a proposition which is described orally or on paper. It then gets applied if it is confirmed true. This discovery has such huge ramifications that it may take a lot longer to be validated than was originally anticipated.
I already agreed that moral responsibility has no meaning in a wholly determined world. But you are missing the other side of the equation. In a wholly determined world we achieve a developed conscience which has nothing to do with morality in the sense of right and wrong. As far as identity, you are still YOU in a wholly determined world, which allows you to separate who you are (in terms of your individual characteristics, your lineage, etc.) from others.
He explains very precisely that we are always moving in the direction of greater satisfaction. That’s given in the Amazon sample. Did you take the time to read that, at least? He was also clear about what he meant by the word God. The point of his book is to demonstrate how it is now possible to remove all evil, not to prove the existence of God although in the process God is revealed as an epiphenomenon.
[i]p. 40 This discussion on chance brings forcibly to the attention of the
reader the fact that this world did not come about by chance. The
purpose of this book is to prove undeniably that there is design to the
universe. By delivering mankind from evil, the last vestige of doubt
is removed. Through our deliverance, God is revealed to us; but the
evil is not removed to prove that God is not a figment of the
imagination, but only because it is evil.
He becomes an
epiphenomenon of this tremendous fire that will be built to burn away
the evil, and the light that is shed reveals His presence as the cause of
the evil that He is now removing through these discoveries which He
also caused; and no person alive will be able to dispute these
undeniable facts. There is tremendous misunderstanding about the
meaning of determinism, therefore, it is necessary to first demonstrate
why man’s will is not free so the reader can follow the reasoning which
leads to my discovery. [/i]
I maintain that even though a person could not have done otherwise (therefore it was necessarily the right thing because it was the only thing that could have been done) does not mean that a person will continue to do the same thing given new environmental conditions. The mind (or conscience) cannot handle hurting others unjustifiably in a world of no blame, which is the very core of this discovery.