on discussing god and religion

imb,
It seems to me that there is some confusion in your mind about how this issue should be addressed/probed.

One way is to demonstrate hard evidence (in the backyard) but that is not possible, at least on the net. So, it would be a waste of time to focus on that.

The second way is to use personal experiences/cogitations to probe this philosophically, as we do for other philosophical premises. That is within our capacity, so let us focus on that.

That is true. Some subjectivity will be always there but as ones will climb the steps, its ratio is bound to increase and comes closer to pure objectivity.

Secondly, it is not the case that i cannot or hesitating to tell you how i derived my conclusions from my experiences, but the problem with that is, there is no way that you can check the validity of those experiences. So, either you would have to accept that in toto or reject completely. Yes, you can question my conclusions. If that is your intention, i will take this discussion to slightly different route. But, if that is not what you want, let us forget about hard physical evidences of the God and use philosophy only.

Yes, and the reason is very simple.

If there is nothing without physical reach, there is no possibility of the god either. If there is no arthmatics, there cannot be any algebra either. It is as simple as that. Secondly, it is an easier thing to discuss and conclude than god.

Though, no theist would ask you that. But, this is the very course that i gone through personally, that is why i am using that. Mostly people start learning from books but i consulted books after learning. I did not have the luxury of guidance and have no option but to rely on trial and error method. That perhaps took more time, but on the other hand, it also provided me some subtle insights, that most bookish theists do not have.

I will certianly take you beyond in our heads. There are some ways which it can be done philosophically, without needing the compulsion of in the backyard.

You are getting it slightly wrong here. Actually, it is far more complicated issue than how you presented.

[b]Objective truth does not entail easy availability too.

Secondly, there are many layers of reality, thus objectivty depends on which level of reality/subjectivity one belongs. At some point, objectivity and relativity tend to lose their meaning and the real issue becomes which layer of reality the observer belongs and subjectivity becomes the ultimate objectivity.[/b]

Let me explain.

Say that there is a person. What is his reality to you? Obviously a walking, talking and thinking and normal person with some memories and emotions. But, if you put that person in a scientific machine, machine will you that person has some percentages of carbon, oxygen, iron etc. Then, some more advanced machine would tell you that person is nothing but made of many electrons and protons. After that, perhaps some CERN scientist will tell you that all you know till now is not the objective reality, and this person is nothing but merely the clump of enumerable Higgs-Boson.

So, the question is what should be considered as an objective reality? If you go by scientific deduction, you will certainly get smaller and smaller constituents, but in that case, what will happen to collectivity of that person that is represented by his experinces, memories, thoughts, emotions, feelings etc?

There is certainly some true objective reality. That is precisely what Godness is. True objectivity manifests only when one becomes able to comprehend and correspond all levels of reality’; Omnipresence and Omniscience. But. let us not get into that for now.

Keep the judement pending. Let us see what happens.

Yes.

Even i cannot demonstrate that the God exists but certainly able to demonstrate that there is something that is beyond physical means. Then, we will talk about the God and i will put my theory forth.

imb, all these arguments are assumptions. There is no physical evidence to support this. Medical science says that emotions are nothing but merely the result of some chemicals. So, does that mean that WTP is a chemical substance like any hormone?

Remember, i am not saying that WTP or likewise things do not exist. They certainly are but i just want to draw your attention towards the fact that there is scope in philosophy for such premises. And, the premise of God is also entitled to that.

Yes, that is the point on which i want to draw your intention. And, it is good that you did not hesitate to accept what seems to be obvious and logical. Many intellectuals do not do that. They keep discussing metaphysical premises like WTP or Kant’s Sehema but as soon as the issue of God comes, they tend to make such faces that they just have tasted something very bitter and that is not going down to their throat.

We have covered that.

That is true because they have faith. I also have faith but my reasons of having faith are slightly different. Their faith is borrowed but mine is earned. But, i am not saying that they are doing something wrong. My purpose is also the same; immorality and salvation.

I very well understand that. That is not my concern either. I am using that to make our discussion easy, smooth and understandable to both of us. Because, from my experience, i am well aware that starting from the god would not serve any purpose for discussion.

That is an easier part. But, in that case, why are you interested in finding physical proof of the god and not focus merely on the issue whether it serves any purpose or not? And, why you are not comfortable with merely in the head and want everything in the backyard?

Nevertheless, i do not have issue either way. It is up to you to decide whether you are interested in merely how one ought to live or whether something exist beyond physical means or not.

But, please make sure as both discussions will take different route.

You are not getting what i was trying to say. What do you think of Ghandi, Mother Teresa, Mandella or MLK? Were they philosophers? Did they address every issue? And, on that grond, should we consider them fools?

Every historical figure addresses his timeline, his context and his surroundings, not the future. There was no need for Jesus to express his views about homosexuality and capitalism. He addressed the intrusions of Judaism and that was his only purpose.

Forget about what Jesus said about the God. Consider him merely a social worker/preacher with noble intention like those social figures. I am asking this to atheists to respect him as a human, at least.

What kind of historical evidence? Why do you think that the existence of all these all persons, which happened to be there some centuries back that of Jesus, are not in doubt but Jesus’s is? Give me reasons.

And, also remember that none of these is/was as famous and influential than Jesus. No one other is as followed and discussed as him. You cannot find any other person in the history of the western world, on whom so many people trusted blindly. Yet, he is the only one whose existence is in doubt! Thus, your argument of all over the philosophical map does not hold water.

Even Aristotle was buried under his books without being noticed. It was Muslim scholars, who dig him out of his grave and introduced the world by his work after some centuries, but nobody questions his existence!

Why only Jesus? Even other religious figures like Moses, Buddha, Mahavira, Muhammad etc are spared! What special evidence these people have that Jesus not! But, the question mark is only behind Jesus! Why?

Whether he said onjective truth or not, can be certainly challenged. Unlike typical theists, I do not mind that.

I tried to have an idea of those links. There is nothing in those that can be said reasonable. All that is nothing but a foolish and biased atheistic attempt to establish that there was no Jesus whatsoever. They are trying to uproot the whole tree instead of merely forbidding others from having its fruits.

imb, if you start looking only for loop holes in the history of such a person, who existed more than 2000 years back, you will find many. That is not a big deal. There are many controversies about the life of Buddha and Mahavira too but nobody ever denies their existence. Yes, some say that they were not such as presented by their followers. That argument may be right or wrong.

Secondly, does it seem possible to you that merely some writers can create such mass illusion and kept it going for more than 2000 years?

I am very well understsanding what you are trying to say. That phase of my life has been passed as far as some subjects are concerned. There was a time when i came across to the same question, but with further effort and experiences over the time, i became able to understand the realation of observation/perception with the reality.

As i said above, there are two ways to settle this issue.

One is that i explain you my process and you question my derived cogitations. But, in that case, you have to assume that i am telling the truth.

The second way is to try to establish whether something exist beyond physical means or not. In this case, mere discussion is enough. If that can be established, then we can think how that can be related to the god. No physical evidence is required.

I am open either way. It is up to you to choose. We can also take both metnods side by side too.

But, did you ever think that 1into 1 can be 1 too! How are you sure that they will add everytime, whenever they interact, and in the way you are assuming? Means, why they cannnot multiply or devide each other? Why 1 and 1are supposed to be 2 everytime and not 1, 0 or 11? In the case, objectivity will lose its meaning and subjectivity becomes the only reality.

We have covered that.

That depends upon what this I/ME is in actual terms. If it is nothing but mere brainwashing and ever changeable too, there is no objectivity in this universe whatsoever. But, if something in this I/ME is constant/eternal, there will be an ultimate objectivity for sure.

with love,
sanjay

Okay, but please note:

This exchange that we are having exist objectively in my view. In other words, anyone in the world [irrespective of their views about God and religion and identity and morality] who has access to a computer and the internet can read these words. Everyone will agree that it in fact does exist. It doesn’t make any difference whatsoever how different their experiences, relationships and sources of information are. And that’s what I construe to be “objective reality”. Again, insofar as mere mortals can ever really grasp that given the staggering mystery that is existence itself.

But then we can ask: which of our arguments is more reasonable? Here our particular experiences, relationships, sources of information etc. will have far more relevance. And then we can ask any philosopher to demonstrate which of our subjective narratives here reflects the most rational and objective manner in which to grasp the “reality” of God and religion.

That, in my view, is a very important distinction to make. And this is where we seem to go in different directions. You will acknowledge that there is “some subjectivity” here whereas I see dasein as considerably more relevant in discussions like this.

To wit: The gap “I” see between any premises we might agree on here and demonstrating the actual existence of a God, the God, your God.

This is basically my point though. We live in a world where [through televison, film, the internet etc] we are able to note just how different lives can be for others in different cultures, in different parts of the world, from different historical ages.

That is why I always aim the philosophical beam at those things we all seem to share in common – objective truths that in fact transcend dasein. One being that God is everywhere. Hundreds and hundreds of denominations. And we can explore the reasons for this. But how much closer does that get us to the actual existing God? If He exists at all.

And here I always get “stuck”: how is this relevant to the lives that we live? In particular when they come into conflict? We discover the laws of nature [and the role that mathematics plays] and we able historically to create the modern, industrial world. But the different perspectives we have on God and religion is irrelevant here. And that is because the laws of physics and mathematics always revolve around either/or. Or do until we enter the domain of QM. There is no question of merely having faith in this. Let alone of worshipping and adoring it. These laws and equations have nothing to do with Sin or Salvation or Immotality or Divine Justice. Unless, of course, they do. But then it is incumbent upon the believer to show us how they do.

Again – for all practical purposes – I don’t know what you mean here. You will have to give me examples of this pertaining to the lives we live. Lives that over and again come into conflict.

Yes, I can agree with this basically. You articulated it well. But what this encompasses [for me] is that profound mystery still beyond the reach of science: the mystery that is mind. In other words, matter that is like no other. Ever. Mindful matter. Matter able to explore itself as matter…as mind. And here the question of autonomy itself is deconstructed. Could it possibly be that we both embody merely the illusion of choosing our words “freely” here? Yeah, sure, mind may well be the second biggest mystery of all. Behind only the mystery of existence itself. Why something and not nothing? Why this something and not another something?

But how does one then make the profound leap from mind to soul…and from soul to God… and from God to my God…and from my God to the only God?

In other words, beyond the definitions and the deductions that are held to be true “in my head”?

Again, I am not really certain what you are trying to say here. This is the world that we live in: globalissues.org/article/26/ … -and-stats

And it is a world that clearly revolves around political and economic power. And, yes, there are folks who will justify this philosophically by positing things like WTP: Survival of the fittest, might makes right, the masses are sheep etc.

Now, science may not [yet] be able to fully explain our emotional and psychological reactions to these statistics, but it seems rather obscure [to me] to suggest anything other than the brute facticity of power in both creating and then sustaining this world. And if there be an omniscient and omnipotent God, He certainly seems intent on letting it stay this way.

This, of course, is the aspect of our discussion that piques my own interest. Different folks have faith in – believe in – different Gods. And part and parcel to this is the belief that in worshipping their own God, they will achieve immortality and salvation. But only in worshipping their God. And with immoratality and salvation itself at stake, what could be more crucial than believing in the “right God”? Why yours and not all the others? What substantive arguments can they provide us here.

In fact, this is when arguments like Carl Sagan’s seem most relevant:

Ann Druyan suggests an experiment: Look back again at the pale blue dot of the preceding chapter. Take a good long look at it. Stare at the dot for any length of time and then try to convince yourself that God created the whole Universe for one of the 10 million or so species of life that inhabit that speck of dust. Now take it a step further: Imagine that everything was made just for a single shade of that species, or gender, or ethnic or religious subdivision. If this doesn’t strike you as unlikely, pick another dot. Imagine it to be inhabited by a different form of intelligent life. They, too, cherish the notion of a God who has created everything for their benefit. How seriously do you take their claim?

Your God, on the other hand, seems [to me] a million miles away from this. Instead, His existence seems tethered only to the premises you are aiming to examine here. You say that you will make this premise more substantial by taking it “out of your head”. But sometimes it seems that you are suggesting just the opposite: that no actual physical evidence need be relevant at all.

And I do look forward to exploring whatever it is you are trying to explain to me. But right now, admittedly, I can’t imagine how this can be done other then in the way in which folks like James and Phyllo and Wizard do it: through circular definitions and deductions said to be true because they insist that the definition [and the meaning] of the words they provide are true. And that the arguments of atheists must be wrong because they do not correspond with their own “objective” arguments.

If a theist argues that his God does exist but He has nothing to do with attaining immortality, salvation, divine justice and an objective morality…I’d naturally be curious as to what purpose He does serve in our lives. But you yourself noted above that, “[m]y purpose is also the same; immorality and salvation.”

And I would venture to say that very, very, very, very few believers are interested in God only as an academic exercise aimed at discovering whether He does in fact merely exist.

And I am still a long way from understanding how “something exist beyond physical means” is related to the existence of a God, the God, your God – whatever the purpose of believing in Him might be.

Yes, we both seem to be on a very different trajectory here. These folks had their own narratives relating to particular Gods and particular religious denominations. But sooner or later they have to address the flock regarding behaviors that will be rewarded or punished. As in on that day of reckoning – Judgment Day. Now, unless one is arguing that whatever any of them tell their followers to do [in order to be righteous before God], is the right thing to do, what is someone concerned with doing the right thing before God to do?

Really, if any of them [or their followers today] would not be forthright with me regarding the reality of “conflicting goods” out in the world of actual interacting men and women, how seriously could I take them?! If a belief in God is not intimately related to “how ought I to behave?” on the sojourn from birth to death, it would seem entirely sterile to me.

And what does it mean for someone to respect Jesus as a “human being” [as a “social worker”] if they genuinely and sincerely believe that the values he embodied back then are not in accordance with their own regarding issues like abortion or capital punishment or gender roles or economic justice or homosexuality.

I directed you [and others] to links that explore this. But the link from wiki approaches it from both sides: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

But the extent to which it can be shown that Jesus did in fact exist as a man back then is of little interest to me in this exchange. It is only the extent to which whatever the historical facts might be can be used to link him to the God of Moses and Abraham – to the God – that matters to me.

Here we will just have to agree to disagree that you either understand the point I am raising about the profoundly problematic nature of dasein [identity] or that you address it. In my view, we think about these things as we do based on the differing experiences, relationships and sources of information we have encountered. There is no objective truth here…only an exchange of subjective/subjunctive vantage points.

This is simply too abstract for me to sink my teeth into. Either what you believe about God can be translated into the existental lives that we live [lives that come into conflict over value judgments – judgements pertaining to or not pertaining to God] or it will always be [for me] something that you [now] believe “in your head” that I do not [now] believe “in my head” is true.

Same here. With immortality, salvation, divine justice and objective morality literally at stake, you want me to agree that maybe there is a god if I can agree with you that “something exist beyond physical means”. Again: what on earth does that mean pertaining TO “how ought I to live my life” in the here and now in order that I might be embraced by a God, the God, your God after I am dead and gone?

I am willing to explore further your “premise” but I have to honest and note that this seems to be a far cry from the reason most folks believe in God. This really does seem to be just an exercise in scholasticism. Or it does so far to me.

I hold an orange in my left hand and an orange in my right hand. The one orange plus the other orange equals two oranges. That will never change. Or I can hold an orange in my left hand and an apple in my right hand. One orange plus one apple equals two fruit. And that will never change. But if Joe believes in God A and Joan believes in God B…does that make two Gods? If there is a God, the God, then one of them doesn’t really exist at all.

And, again, given what is at stake here when the Grim Reaper comes around, I damn sure want to know which God is the one true God. And if there be a God at all.

Now, scholars and philosophers and theologians may argue that this sort of thinking is “for the masses” but there is a reason for that, right? Because this is really what faith in God comes down to! Pertaining to the lives that we live. And what happens to us after we die.

Yes, and to me, “I” and “me” are the embodiment of dasein. In other words, the existential layers that we accummulate revolving first around our genetic/biological predispositions, then around our historical and cultural context, and then around the experiences, relationships and sources of information that any one particular individual encounters en route from the cradle to the grave.

Now, what I am curious to know is how you embody what you deem to be “constant/eternal” relating to your own I/ME – insofar as it can be implicated/situated/integrated into your interactions with others when they come into conflict over value judgments.

And here I am more than willing to acknowledge that we may well be after different things. And also to note that what I am after is not necessarily more important than what you are after. So, sure, we can just agree to disagree and move on to others more inclined to approach God and religion as we do.

Or, instead, we can struggle to bridge the gaps between us. Either way, I believe that we both do respect each other’s intelligence.

imb,

I am sorry for being late. Others threads kept me busy. I will reply tonight.

with love,
sanjay

No problem. I’ve been there myself.

I think that i more or less understood what you are trying to say.

But, it is my humble request not to use too complex or vague language and terms as one can draw any meaning that he wants. Please keep it as straight and simple as possible. That will help both of us.

I do not see that there is much difference in how people cogitates things. They all do that the same way. The actual difference is in the benchmark or thought process/perception/a priori knowledge that they use to examine things. That is all.

No need to get stuck.

imb, the first thing that you need to understand here is that is no isolation available here in this universe for anything, whether physical or metaphysical. Anything, if that exists, is somehow related to other things, more or less. Yes, there will be some difference in the degree to that one thing will affect and got affected by other things.

The same applies to the premise of God and the question of whether anything exists beyond our physical reach or not too. These two inquires are not irrelevant but actually the most important ones, far more important than we can assume.

The answers to these two questions decided/decide the course of the mankind. Science, technology, social premises etc are slaves to these answers as they entirely depend how these two questions are probed and what answers we are able derive from these. The all difference that you see between different societies in the world is only because they derived different answers to these questions. There are no other reasons whatsoever.

The cornerstone of mathematics is philosophical derivation from religious investigations. Both 1 and 0 represent male penis and female vagina respectively. These represent Shiva (1 and male) and Shaki ( 0 and female), and when they come together and make a union, creation happens. And, that does not happen once but it is an eternal process. That is why a penis has to go in and out manytimes from the vagina. In the same way, basic numbers from 1to 9 have go in and out from 0 to create mathematics.

So, let us not underestimate the importance of these questions. It is not merely an academic exercise that will be restricted to books only but it crafts our future too in all verticals.

Yes, i will certainly give examples.

Yes, i can do that, in spite of my limitations of the English language. But, it is not because that i am a very intelligent person. The only and very simple reason is that my knowledge about these issues in not borrowed but earned. I have gone through the process of acquiring the knowledge in person, instead of having readymade lessons. Thus, the basics are clearer in my mind.

imb, if you ever read Upnishads, this is the first thing that they asked; what is reality and how can we know that?
Then, they deduct it further and ask; who is exactly this I/We, that wants to know?

That is what that is the actual purpose of the religions, neither the God, nor the morality. God happened accidently and morality is the use of those small findings they came across during their journey.

It is certainly beyond the reach of the science, but not beyond the reach of mankind for sure. Though, science can easily find the evidence of something beyond physical reach, but unfortunately, it has not made enough attempts in this direction.

Although, your line of questioning is right but not the finding the answers. That confuses you and you are not able to make a call on anything and have to keep every judgment pending. That is why you bring God in everything.

Let me ask you one very simple question. If i ask you what your height is exactly, how would you measure it?
Would you take a measuring tape and measure your height from it or will start questioning the authenticity of the tape itself?

That is precisely the issue with you. When i ask you anything, you start questioning your mind. You must remember here that every level of existence has its own reality. So, do not try to measure any existence of one reality from the benchmark of another reality. You will never able to find the answer, unless you become omniscient, and that is not possible for you or anyone else.

That is exactly that happened to our discussion in the poll thread.

Do not bring the issue of in the head or god, when these are not under the scanner per se. Or, leave all other issue behind and first settle the issue of I/WE. Make up your mind.

I am asking a very simple question. Whether N’s or Kant’s metaphysical premises have any scientific evidence? Can any machine confirm their physical existence? If not, why intellectuals give any importance to these at all?

That explanation is not scientific by any mean. You may not able to realize but you are arguing in the same way how theists do. You are holding WTP the motivating force while they say it is God. What is the difference? Neither you have any physical evidence nor they.

That is an entirely different and complex issue altogether but we will come to that later.

I can answer this easily but for that i have to put forth my complete theory of existence, including the God. It is difficult for me to explain that now. We will take up this issue later.

She does not have any idea whatsoever about it and merely guessing without knowing the basics.

My reasoning is entirely different from them. As i said before, I will show you that something is existing there for sure which is beyond our physical reach. And, i will not use any highly philosophical arguments but very simple and common things and observations around us, which would certainly be out of the head.

You are again conflating two levels of reality. The concept of God serves different purposes to different levels of human reality/existence. One is for this world and that is morality and the second one is for other level of existence, where it leads to immorality and salvation.

The premise of the god is like crude oil. It gives different byproducts at different stages, from tar to Kerosene oil, Diesel, Petrol and lastly ATF (fuel used for aero planes).

That is true today but that was not the case in the past.

I will try to establish that there is certainly something such in all the living creatures that controls and guides those, yet cannot be verified physically. If there can be anything such for sure, there is a possibility that the God may exist somewhere.

imb, you seem to be too much obsessed with the idea of theism/atheism. That is intruding your mind. You need to get out from this and try to see the things from other angles.

No matter whatever were the beliefs of Gandhi Or Mother Teresa about the God, they were not in conflict about social guidelines. Both did not talk much about God in their public life. Gandhi’s first priority was the elevation of the last man standing in the line and Teresa devoted her whole life to serve the ill people. Do we need the any religious doctrine to measure whether they did good or bad?

imb, as i said in the last post, it is useless to argue about the authenticity of such a person, who existed more than 2000 years ago. Anyone can say anything, either for or against. It cannot be settled ever.

But, you did not answer my question that, why the question mark is only behind Jesus, neither Moses nor Buddha?

I am not disagreeing with you at all. I understand your perspective but there is something more besides that too, which you still do not know. You are still struggling with the definition of I/We. As you do have an exact answer to that, thus assuming that there cannot any exact answers to any other thing as well. But, that is not true.

There is certainly an ultimate objectivity of existence. That is precisely what religions postulate as omniscient. One who is aware of and also can correspond to all levels of the reality. When anyone reaches at stage, he becomes truly objective.

Okay, let us leave that.

Whether it could be related to the God or not, is the verification of something exist beyond physical means does not mean anything to you? Is it a small thing?

You are jumping the gun here. You want to settle the issue without going through that because of your presumption.

imb, why are you interested in what other think about this? Let us focus on what we think about this.

No, that is very much changeable and depends how they interact with each other. Like, if you will them safe within your hands, they will remain 1+1=2. But, if you smash them hard with one another, the result would be different from 2.

As i said above, I will answer that later. I am not able to explain in bits and pieces but need to put a complete theory.

So, does that mean that we are nothing but our layers of brainwashing, or there is something else besides it?
Please make it clear because i will argue on that.

I respect your curiosity as it is almost an endangered quality nowdays.

I do mind struggling or sweating in discussion as far as the opponent remains honest with the discussion, no matter what his opinion may be or he agrees with me or not.

As far as the respect is concerned, i respect everyone. Intelligence is not my benchmark for respect anyone.

with love,
sanjay

Yes, words like “God” and “religion” in my view. On the other hand, my understanding of “dasein” and “conflicting goods” is such that in using them in discussions relating to God and religion [or value judgments and identity] there is only so much precision available to us. In fact, that is basically my point here. In other words, I just don’t want whatever precision that is said to exist to revolve basically around definitions and deductions. Words that are said to be true only because other words insist that they are.

cogitate [v]: To think deeply about something; meditate or reflect.

There is [in my view] a considerable distinction to be made between cogitating about abortion as a medical procedure and cogitating about abortion as a moral issue.

Same with cogitating about the existence of the Christian Bible and cogitating about the extent to which the Christian Bible reflects the word of the one true God.

And the extent to which you don’t grasp the manner in which I make this distinction is [perhaps] the extent to which I will not grasp yours. We can only try to grapple with this as best we can.

Yes, but to me there is a considerable distinction to be made between noting this [which, let’s face it, is merely to point out that we exist in the universe] and in suggesting that all of this is related existentially [and then essentially] to a God, the God, your God. Again, if for no other reason that God is invarably linked to immortality, salvation, divine justice and an objective moral font. And that brings into focus not only the question of what we are but of how we ought to behave in order to align ourselves with the will of a God, the God, your God.

Sure, and religious investigations are derived from the fact that our brain evolved such that it is able to apprehend and to construct particular continuities out of what it is able perceive and sense regarding the relationship between “in my head” and “out in the world”. And, yes, that eventually leads the brain [the conscious mind] to go all the way back to pondering what brought about existence in the first place. And one of the possibilities here is a God, the God, my God.

But how specifically is this related to the penis and the vagina?

In other words, what we can know objectively about human sexuality biologically is one thing, and what we can know about the morality of human sexuality, another thing altogether. Or so it seems to me. The biology largely transcends dasein and conflicting goods. But not the morality. Unless, of course, one is able to establish the actual existence OF a transcending moral font. One able to truly settle the conflicts once and for all.

Again:

You say this. But, still, all I can do is to assume that you believe this to be true. But how does it then earn the right to convince others? To me, it is an entirely abstract set of assumptions that you have "deduced’ into existence based on all of the other assumptions you have made above. And what I am looking for instead is a way to connect the dots between these theoretical/conceptual assumptions and the nuts and the bolts of the lives that we live when they come into conflict with others; and the extent to which they can be made relevant to our fate after we die.

In other words, the actual reasons that the overwhelming preponderance of religious folks do predicate their own faith on.

To wit:

And you respond:

Yes, and somehow “in your head” this reflects an adequate explanation for the points I raise. And, therefore, you can assume that all the “confusion” here stems from my inability to grasp what, instead, I construe to be basically an intellectual/theoretical/conceptual contraption that in my view exist by and large only in your head.

As though when folks in any particular human community struggle to legislate behaviors relating to conflicting sexual behaviors [like homosexuality from the other thread] your speculations here will actually be of crucial importance. How? And I am still a long, long way from grasping how, further, you connect this to a God, the God, your God. All I know with any real certainty is that, somehow, you have in fact been able to accumplish this “in your head”.

No, I am providing you with a statistical snapshot of the world we live in. I am then noting the obvious: that men and women who possess considerable political and economic power have had an enormous input in the creation of this world. And in sustaining it to reflect their own material interests. I am not saying that this power is a manifestation of WTP. WTP is merely one philosopher’s contention regarding how one might look at a world [sans God] in terms of one particular subjective/subjunctive narrative.

Instead, this revolves around the organic, historical evolution of the capitalist political economy. And then [for some] the extent to which they are able to rationalize it in terms of their own particular rendition of God. After all, most of the folks who own and operate the world economy today are Christians. Or call themselves that.

Okay. And I am most curious to see how you accomplish this. On the other hand, to the extent to which you claim this can be done “easily” is the extent to which it reminds me of others here who insist it might be done “simply”. And that to me is but another indication that they will accomplish this largely “in their head”. But that, of course, is the one place I can never go. You know, for confirmation.

Again, just to be clear:

I am not at all impressed with their thinking because, in my view, they ask us to believe that the definitions and the deductions that they provide for us in their “analysis” is what makes their argument true.

And that seems to revolve not only around their God but around human behaviors that come into conflict [morally and politically] over conflicting goods; and then the manner in which we acquire an identity.

And here all I can do is to wait patiently for you to actually connect what I construe to be abstract arguments like this to the lives that we live; and then to what becomes our fate after we stop living [down here]. Either you are able to conflate these two levels of “reality” such that I am able to grasp the existential implications of God and religion [your God and your religion] or you are not. In other words, I keep waiting for what I construe to be more tangible arguments. There are just too many crucial reasons in which, for me, God is not like crude oil at all.

So it seems [to me] that you are hinting at the existence of something analogous to a “soul” – something “spiritual” that “controls and guides” some. And that IF such a thing does exist then there is the POSSIBILITY that God might exist too.

And yet [in all honestly] what most intrigues me is the manner in which you are then able to take a “leap” [as did Kierkegaard?] to the God – to the God that includes Jesus Christ in His narrative. To Christianity. And then from that to the analysis of behaviors such as homosexuality. In other words, which makes me all the more curious the extent to which you are able to say with any certainty [ie deontologically] what our moral obligations must be if we wish to be “saved” by this God of Jesus once we die.

Idea:
1] a thought, plan, or suggestion about what to do
2] an opinion or belief
3] something that you imagine or picture in your mind

So, in regard to the relationship between “I” and God and religion, it is the extent to which any particular ideas that any particular individuals have are able to be encompassed such that they can be shown to be true for all of us. In other words, such that it is not just something they hold to be true “in their mind” – but something that in fact is true objectively.

But show me a community of human beings where the “social guidelines” regarding right and wrong behavior is not linked [often intimately linked in some communities] to their belief in God and religion.

You can have a community where the behavior we call homosexuality is entirely tolerated and permitted…or one in which to engage in it means a certain punishment. Even death. Now, one can either link their own narrative here to the existential reality of this “out in the world” that we live in today or they can’t.

And what we need – or surely what most clearly want – is a frame of mind in which to know with certainty how a virtuous soul is to behave in order to pass muster on Judgment Day. And that is as close to being factual about God and religion “out in the world” as we are ever likely to establish here. If, in the end, it is not intimately aligned with either “sin” or “not a sin” then what is it really but an academic exercise revolving instead around definitions and deductions. Around what our “ideas” are said to “mean”.

And this might well speak volumes regarding the gap between us. Or at least the gap as it exist now.

After all, there are folks who insist that only by embracing their God and their religion and their moral values can this be realized. Or that only capitalism can bring about this better world. Or that only socialism will bring it about. And then there are any number of “liberals” and “conservatives” who will insist [in turn] that their own political agenda is the only sure fire way of ever bringing about a better world.

And what of issues like abortion or gun control or hunting or animal rights or gender roles or homosexuality — what makes a world “better” with respect to these behaviors? And hundreds more like them? And how is one’s answer to this then linked to the question of a God, the God, my God?

And isn’t that an accurate reflection of the world we actually live in?

I did answer it. I directed you to the links of folks who are very much interested to delving into this historically. Me, I am interested more in the extent to which those who claim to establish the existence of “Jesus the man” are then able to link him in turn to the actual existence of the Christian God.

Or the extent to which the moral and political agenda embodied by the historical Christ can be shown [philosophically] to reflect a deontological ethics.

My aim is less to define human identity than to situate it [my own] out in the world existentially as dasein. After all, only actual flesh and blood men or women use the word “I”. And, in some respects, to reflect on things that are true objectively, and, in other respects, to offer up subjective opinions regarding the relationship between things. In particular when, in interacting socially, politically and economically, these relationships come into conflict.

With or without God and religion.

Let’s just say that, as of now, at this juncture in our exchange, it will become considerably more meaningful to me given the extent to which you are able to link it to a God, the God, your God.

Otherwise you are just leading me to a premise – a premise about the relationship bewteen the life that I do live and the mere possibility that it is linked to something that “exist beyond physical means”.

In the interim, as I noted above, I am running out of time. If there be a God, the God, how can I reach Him in time before immortality and salvation really do become [along with everything else pertaining to “I”] nothing at all. You know, for eternity.

In short, I am considerably less concerned with what others “think” here and more with what they are able to demonstrate to me – substantively, substantially – regarding the actual existence of their God and their religion.

Obviously, there are manny, many aspects of the lives we live [of “I”] that have little or nothing to do with brainwashing. And that is because they pertain to those things [and to the relationships between things] that are in fact true objectively. It is only when we contemplate the relationship between “I” and conflicting goods or conflicting Gods or conflicting ontological and teleological speculations, that “I believe” becomes considerably more problematic. And thus considerably more reflective of subjective/subjunctive points of view and personal opinions.

For example, when I speak of living in Baltimore, of being male, of being 5’ 10" tall, of having a daughter, of wearing glasses, of typing these words etc., that is not because I was indoctrinated to believe it.

What you need to understand is that in Iambig’s philosophy, there is no ‘good’ or ‘better’. There is simply no way to evaluate these concepts.

If a decision/action is made and you look at the consequences, then there will be a person A who, because of his experiences, will evaluate it as good and a person B who, because of his experiences, will evaluate it as bad. Nothing can be said that can negate either of these opinions.

That’s why he keeps referring to God. God, if he exists, could come down and break the tie - make the correct judgement.

But sans God …

No, in my view, there is no essential or objective or universal “good” or “better” – at least not with respect to conflicting value judgments that revolve around conflicting goods. Judgments that are understood existentially from the perspective of a mere mortal living out in a particular world and viewing it from a particular point of view. And in a world that revolves around [and evolves from] contingency and chance and change.

And yet even here I am willing to acknowledge that, sure, theoretically, there may well be such a truth – but that no one has yet been able to demonstrate it to me. Just as, in this respect, there may well be an existing God that no one has managed to convince me of.

Yes, this seems to be a reasonable manner in which to frame my point of view. Thus if John is raised in a Christian community to believe in the Christian God and Muhammad is raised in a Moslem community to believe in the Islamic God and Javier is raised in a Cuban or Chinese or North Korean community to believe in No God, they may very well come to believe that the others are wrong in what they believe.

Okay, so how would the philosopher go about establishing which point of view here reflects the objective truth? Not even counting all of the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of additional ways in which a particular individual [as dasein] might come to think about God and religion.

And, in particular, with respect to immortality and salvation and divine justice – the attaining of which seems to be predicated not only on believing in a God, but on the God.

Which is then, in turn, intimately intertwined in the conviction by almost all religionists that one must behave in a way not deemed “sinful” by the God.

No, my aim here with Zinnat is to discover the extent to which he can nudge me in the direction of a premise that might lead me down the path to considering the existence of a God, the God, his God.

But more to the point I am interested in the extent to which any religionist is able to convince me that his or her own God is the one true path to immortality, salvation, divine justice and an objective moral font.

And you certainly have not.

Which does not make you wrong, of course. But the whole point of our exchanges here must necessarily revolve around the extent to which we are able to convince others that our own narratives are or are not reasonable.

For example, to the best of my knowledge you believe in the Christian God. You also believe that abortion is objectively moral. Well, there are any number of Christians that I have come across over the years who insist that abortion is objectively immoral. And they will use their Christian faith as their own moral font. The same with, say, homosexuality.

So, just out of curiosity, let me ask you: Given the manner in which you construe the relationship between God and these behaviors, what will be the fate of those who practice them come their own day of judgment?

I have not convinced you? No surprising since I have not tried to convince you. I have written very little about these things.
I avoided God entirely when we had our chat in Rant. Although you might say that ‘reason’ was my God in that discussion.

What should I say about my own God now?
My understanding of God is based on a few simple axioms and the logical consequences which follow.

  • We do not occupy a privileged position in the universe

Therefore, the truth must be available to anyone in any place and at any time. It must be possible to know the truth purely from interactions with the universe. The truth cannot be contained in any particular book.

Our behavior cannot be guided by some inaccessible knowledge. The afterlife is beyond knowing. Therefore, morality cannot be based on attaining some reward or punishment in an afterlife.

So:
Immortality - Unknown. Continuity and permanence is a common feeling. My instinct says that there is immortality. But that could be an illusion. Not particularly important to be right about this.
Salvation - You are ‘saved’ by correct actions in this life. Heaven and hell are created on Earth, both for the individual and others.
Divine Justice - Unclear what this would be. We understand human justice, so divine justice (if there is such a thing) would be similar but applied better and more consistently. Unimportant to living.
Objective morality - Determined by actions of humans within a community on planet Earth.

In the context of what I just wrote, it should be obvious that I don’t know what the fate of these people would be, or even if there is a judgement.

A person is not homosexuality. A person is not an abortion. If there is a judgement, then the entire person and all he has done would be judged. The interaction with others would be judged.

As for the morality of these actions in the here and now, the actions need to be evaluated to determine if they are beneficial to the individual and the community. Again, the interaction with others is judged. Is it constructive, destructive or neutral?

So, you are not a Christian then?

Just out of curiosity, would you say that James is? Over and again I would try to get him to flesh out the relationship between logic, RM, the Real God and objectivity. But I could never get beyond what he thinks that is “in his head”.

In fact, this is ultimately my aim with zinnat as well.

In other words:

[b]It’s the whole point of my being in ILP: to connect the dots between what others construe to be God/Reason and the manner in which any particular “I” reacts to behaviors that come into conflict over value judgments. In other words, is there a way to think about this that is not as bleak as the manner in which I construe these relationships to be in terms of the dilemma that is dasein.[/b]

The rest was just me acting out the polemicist. Or the clown.

Again, I don’t doubt that you believe this. But how could anyone ever possibly know this for sure? Which is just to point out that, aside from the premises out of which you constructed this conclusion, how could you [or, again, anyone] go about actually demonstrating that this is in fact true?

Then it would seem that you are among the very, very few “believers” I have come upon over the years who think like this with respect to religion and God.

To wit: Most folks don’t want to die. They want to believe that “I” [as a “soul”] is immortal. And they want to believe that after they have shuffled off this mortal coil, there is something analogous to Paradise and Salvation awaiting them. And there, at last, they will be with God and all their loved ones. And for all of eternity. They will have access to the justice they felt they were deprived of “down here”.

For example, all of the infidels and sinners will burn in Hell.

But:

Before any of that can happen they know they will be judged. And these judgments will of course revolve around their behaviors as mere mortals. But one cannot be properly [or fairly] judged unless they are first given access to a Scripture that delineates what either is or is not a Sin before God.

And, in that respect, having or performing an abortion or engaging in homosexual acts are certainly near the top of most lists as behaviors to avoid. Or, rather, this would seem to be the case given my own interactions with folks who believe in God.

So, you don’t believe in any of that? Instead, you believe that abortion and homosexuality and all other behaviors derived from conflicting value judgments can be judged using logic and reason alone?

And thus if someone engages in a behavior that others deem to be irrational [immoral] the extent of their reaction would be to pass laws making these behaviors illegal…and then punishing those who break the law? And that this will “for all practical purposes” revolve around any particular political concensus a given community of men and women is able to muster?

Because that’s what I believe. I merely stress the need for moderation, negotiation and compromise in a world [governed by the rule of law] where objective truths here do not exist.

Here though I come back to the manner in which I implicate dasein, conflicting goods and political economy in the social, political and economic interactions of mere mortals.

And in that context I do not see how one can derive an argument that is said to reflect – logically – the “objective truth”.

We will just have to agree to disagree about that.

Personally, I can live with this. It’s a good answer.

It’s just that the older some get, the more they seem to need God. Why? Come on.

On the other hand, to tell us is only to apprise us of what one believes is true. But, again and again, how wide is the gap then between telling us and showing us?

And even this must assume that all of the many, many, many Christian denominations [narratives] can somehow be chiseled down into the one true Christian agenda.

In regard to, say, abortion…or homosexuality.

And, perforce, that is always before we get to, well, all of the other Gods.

imb,

Last some days were very busy as my elder brother died. I will try to reply tonight or tomorrow.

with love,
sanjay

Sorry to hear that, Zinnat.

Take as long as you need. I’m sorry for your loss.

Maybe.

But don’t expect any of this to have any substantial use value or exchange value “out in the world” that we live in.

Still, that rarely stops folks who construct daunting deductions of this sort from insisting that their own moral and political agenda might just as well have been carved into stone by these Gods that they define into existence.

You can’t argue with this right? After all, it only requires of one to either believe or not to believe that it is true.

Which means that God can be [or defined to be] practically anything; and then come to mean practically anything in our lives.

And that is fine until the manner in which we link what we think God is to the manner in which we interact with others.

And here what we think and believe about God can come into conflict with what others think and believe about Him.

The rest is history.

Lots of people do that, don’t they? In fact lots of people die never having given their belief in God much thought at all.

Here of course we bump into the folks that do. Well, more or less.

But my own reaction to them is not all that far removed from my reaction to those who don’t [or won’t] give it much thought at all.

I ask them to examine the extent to which their belief in God is rooted in dasein – in the uniquely individual lives that they have lived existentially. I ask them to note the distinction between what they believe subjectively about God “in their head” and what they are able to demonstrate to others as being true objectively “out in the world”. I ask them to explain the relationship between what they believe is true about God and the manner in which they then translate that into behaviors they construe to be moral or immoral.

And then I ask them to examine these behaviors when they come into conflict with the behaviors of those who have a different set of beliefs “in their heads” about a different God.

So, sure, if you know of anyone who is equally fascinated by these relationships – in the manner in which they fascinate me above – invite them to participate in this exchange.

By contrast, however, let me give you a classic example of a belief in God that [in my view] refuses to touch on any of the points I raised above:

Please: do not send folks like these here, okay?

Think about this…

Here are folks who claim that certain behaviors are Sins before God. That you risk etrernal damnation if you engage in them.

Many are taught to believe this as children. And some will literally go to the grave believing it is true.

But others will have a set of experiences that yank them away from this. Instead, they will come to believe that these behaviors are not Sins before God. They will engage in these behaviors convinced that they do not risk eternal damnation at all.

And yet the bottom line remains: Their God either exists or does not exist. And, if He does, these behaviors either are or are not Sins. And, if you engage in them, you either do or do not risk eternal damnation.

Isn’t that the dilemma we all face? Is there a God? Are there behaviors deemed to be Sins by this God?

But: Which God? Which behaviors? Which rendition of being “forgiven”?

This in fact is what I always come back to. There is so much at stake here but we really have nothing more than a “leap of faith”, a “wager” to make on that profoundly problematic sojourn to the abyss.

In other words, religionists who embrace a more “ecumenical” approach to God, might distance themselves from the “fundamentalist” denominations. But the arguments of the fundamentalists don’t go away. If there be a God, there will be a Judgment Day. And would not this Judgment revolve around all of our behaviors? Thus the fundamentalist arguments might be seen as a more reasonable manner in which to embody a belief in God. At least in so far as this belief is related directly to the lives that we live and the behaviors that we choose.

This is more or less how I think about God and religion as well.

I do not deny that a God [the God, your God] might exist. Who am I to actually know that?

Instead, I simply state what [to me] is objectively true: That I do not personally believe in the existence of a/the/your God.

And that, in discussions of this sort, it is then incumbent upon those who do claim the existence of a/the/my God to demonstrate to me why this is in fact true objectively. And not just something that they believe is true “in their head”.