ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, WTP)

If it helps you to increase any one of those, it has positive value.
If not, it has negative value.

Dancing is moving with the beat and flow of the noise with its ups and downs, positive and negatives.
Growing is collecting the positives and letting the negatives go their way.
That is exactly how physics particles, minds, economies, and governments alike, grow and “gain momentum”.

Buy a microscope and you don’t have to guess so much about what is in your water.
Examine the logic behind what you are told and you don’t have to guess about who to believe.
Ask for verification from a friend and you don’t have to doubt yourself quite as much.

If you want to improve something, learn to measure it.
That is the only thing Science ever added to the knowledge of Man; “measurements”, “verification”.

I disagree entirely that in order to improve or increase one needs to measure. I, for me, just need proper method.

Concerning dance - perhaps,what I mean is related to the eternal walz you mentioned a year ago. Not the same thing surely, but Im not talking about bopping my head or anything disco like - neither twerking or such forms. I mean a subtle control of the nervous system used to increase momentum and magnetism, self-harmony.

The attraction this creates whenever its in public is a side issue, a proof, also - the main thing is to know yourself.

And i am not saying measurement is unneccessary in general let alone that dance is sufficient for all goals, of course. Dance is just an example of the body getting involved with the mind.

Measurement is awareness (in refined detail).
It is a little difficult to dance if unaware of the music, the floor, your feet… and the others around you.
Your dance improves automatically when you become more aware.

Yes, but my point is that this works botg ways. You don’t necessarily have to separate those issues.

Money grew to be such a grand influence merely because it is a simple means for measuring influence, literally quantizing influence. Once quantized (aka “precisely measured”), small adjustments become the earmark of success. Military might is gained that same way. All elite perfection is gained merely by observing the finer details of what counts.

Each relevant concern can be quantized and thus measured. By carefully watching the small affects upon each measurement, one learns of what it is that is increasing or decreasing his life. By that means, he learns what to avoid and what to pursue. And if he learns, by definition, he succeeds and grows momentum.

In RM:AO there are the issues of;
Clarity (aka awareness and teaching)
Verification (ensuring against corruption)
Instilling (remembering/documenting the situation and seeing that others do)

Anything, no matter how small, that increases each of those, as long as it doesn’t also decrease others of them, increases the momentum of a being’s existence. Learning to measure them causes them to more automatically, instinctively increase, just as a positive particle automatically grows and ensures its positive nature.

Those are the “dimensions” of Rational Sentience.
Any tools that help measure those dimensions, helps ensure the sentience.

I suspect that one of the things that you might be missing is how to make it fun.

Close. Try meaningful.
But also - possible in general.

Okay.
“Meaningful to the right part of your mind”.
Joy is formed of the inner perception of progress (meaningfulness), even if it is a false perception.

Yes. The feeling of (will to) power – the feeling of power is the will to more power.

So there are two questions:
How does on increase all these attributes, and (if the answer to that doesn’t already answer the following) in what way can one make this activity into something which is directly perceived as having the function that it has.

There is the perception of hope - Incentive.
There is the perception of progress toward that hope - Joy.
And there is the perception of progress toward a never ending, unconfined hope to accomplish anything - Power.

YES!
That really is the MOST relevant question that you will ever ask for the rest of your life.
And of course, one that I have not ignored.

The ability to cause ones inner self (feelings) to agree with one’s cognitive decisions is called “Discipline” or “being a disciple”. How does one become a disciple to the true form and substance of his own life?

Governments ask the same question, “How can we get our own people behind our agenda?”
Or in the military, the General asks, “How can I get my troops to obey my plans and commands?”

And the answer can be stated simply, but doing it is another matter.
One must attend to “Impedance matching” - “grasping only that which is within reach”.

Buddhist monks practice that for their entire lives. And they accomplish Tae Chi, or “Self-Harmony”.
But the more relevant concern is how to do it right such that everyone isn’t merely contemplating their navel for the rest of their lives.

The typical Westerner does the opposite, getting completely involved in tempting, uncoordinated distractions from what his life actually is, the combination of those three efforts.

As each of those efforts increase, they each enhance the ability to increase the others more greatly. They are a self-sustaining, self-maintaining, self-valuing group of efforts, called a living being, a “living particle”.

How any one person accomplishes this in the “right way” (the most beneficial to that person) depends upon the condition in which they begin. The Western world is at war with itself using mental, medical, and military means to ensure each governor gains his own agenda by ensuring that none “beneath him” gain’s theirs. That puts everyone in a pickle.

I have been trying to emphasis the importance of you attending to those specific efforts for what, 3 years or so? Online is a very, very slow means to communicate to another’s feelings. What takes 6 months online, I can do (and have done) in merely 3 days in person. Most such efforts are not worth the effort (which is why so very many people merely leave the internet for the kids).

But it all begins, as has been told for thousands of years, by divorcing one’s self from the “world” and focusing on a new path. But that alone requires discipline that is usually not discipline as much as depression and/or disgust or anger (a cheating way to get the emotions to do what they needed to do. How do you get your nation to attack Iraq? - Anger them). One must stop getting distracted by enticing signs of hopes and threats that keep them from attending to their real need. Since governors won’t stop using them, one must stop being exposed to them such as to prevent the belief in the hopes and threats offered by them. One must turn away from those tempting distractions from anything other than those 3 concerns of life.

Or as Moses put it, “Do not consume the meat of a bifurcated-hoofed animal.”

One means to head in that direction is to resolve the Stopped Clock Paradox.

I’m glad we got to this point.
You must realize that I have been making this effort the the entirety of my life - I have never trusted a single authority until what it said made sense to me.
I also practice Tai Chi, Shaolin Kung Fu, Yoga, Chi Kung and all those things. I meant to include all those things in the meta-concept “dance” but I can see why that wasn’t clear.

Value Ontology is the law of not blindly obeying, of not taking anything for granted. But indeed, the challenge is in finding out what does truly sustain ones most enduring versatile self-valuing/self-harmony.

Apparently, we’re quite in line concerning these means. I am still in an experimental phase of my life. But truth is closing in, as the world is properly turned to waste, there is little time left for experimentation.

On the other hand, it may be that all is already lost, and the time left is really inconsequential.
I hears some depressing news yesterday, that the seas will be dead within 40 years, even independently of Fukushima. No way to verify it, of course.

Concerning the clock paradox, I got a bit lost there fore a moment last week, perhaps you can put the discussion back on track and indicate the last point where what I said made sense in terms of the solution you have in mind.

 Fixed Cross: I disagree with these points. Nothing is ever lost. We understand the genius of the nature god. It protects itself even if at the cost of modifying it"w own self conception through it's creation, namely us human beings.  The big one, the big war is coming, this here is the trepidation, before the storm. Nature is intrinsically intelligent, and the interpretation of her motives, desires, are goal oriented, to assure life toward the future.

The future is within this intrinsic realisation of many worlds to come,and their intrinsic existence has a backward effect of doing everything necessary to assure that their goal is assuredly is re-founded, re grounded.

This grounding assures tacitly that no amount of destruction we can impinge on our planet can have a decisively absolute realisation, since reality is always one step ahead and it has plans to stop whatever totally negative we have in mind in terms of our mutually faithless, absolutely forlorn seeking of the true nature and intent of the nature god. It simply will not be allowed. The limits reached will create illusions of the possibility of more and more progress,yet the acquisition of knowledge will always seemingly delimit, by the decreasing of overall scope by the increasing lack of coherence due to extreme specialisation.

For instance illusions are created toward the peaceful uses of atomic energy, yet everyone playing a game of wishing to believe that there never will be a use other than.

It is inconceivable that primitive societies will not want to play the ultimate game, that is the reason I have never been excited about game theory in any mathematical or rhetorical sense. Games of probability are heavily invested with a prejudice of the virtual reality created, and it is what it is, spells a resignation of sorts toward a shift into a blind material populism, which fore bodes nothing but a troubling sense of an absolute collapse, a collapse of an entropic thinning out of a being, which should be rehabilitated much more comprehensively than let’s say what green peace can do.

Therefore, things have to get really very bad, until the time comes when children will grow up and realize that play time is over.

In general I share these sentiments and conceptions - to think like this is my tendency as well. But considering that it may be true that the oceans will in 40 years be unable to support any form of life, I begin to think in terms of a whole different type of nature and evolution. Consider the possible transformation of the organic into the semi-organic. It is not unthinkable that a segment of humanity will adapt to its self-created environment and acquire all sorts of technological powers and immunities. Such things have been in the works and they’re certainly not being shared with the public, for ultra obvious reasons. What’s worse, I am not even certain that I can be against such developments. In the great scheme of things, where dominant species have a history of getting extinct by cataclysms, and where planets are swallowed by their suns, it would be pretty awesome if a part of humanity evolved to some kind of thousand-year-living supermen. Especially if normal humans can’t experience things like sea-life or general biodiversity in anymore.

I’m just on a speculative tangent here based on reports I heard yesterday. I’m not saying the ecosystem is certainly doomed, I am not a biological expert at all. My true hope and trust is in the capacity of humans to restore the ecosystem once the ridiculous oil interests are played out. I am fairly confident we already have the technology to counteract nuclear radiation, for example, and that this technology is being hidden and its creators murdered. That won’t go on forever. Right now the technocratic power of humanity is employed mainly to keep overtly available technology at a minimum level of usefulness.

Ayup.

And that is why one must abandon the current mindset, ontologies, and “theories” and quickly get ahead of the game.
… PM.

Yes. This also works in tandem with what you said, James, about “forces” being mystifications of old thinking, or however you phrased it.

On a side note, life will keep evolving and existing, even as we cause mass extinctions. Humans can constrict the sphere of life, but cannot eliminate it.

Also, the news (and science too to a certain extent) is in the business of depressing you.

Depressing and distracting - preventing as much as possible that people value the world in their own terms. Urging them, causing urges in them to find other “worlds” in which to see themselves reflected.

From the first time I watched tv I remember marveling at the bizarre and cosmic contrast of the repeating sequence commercials - news - commercials.

Nothing could be more effective in dislodging mans sense of reality.

It needs to be remedied all the way on the level of superpower legislation. Not International, law, but actual hard treaties between powers that fear each other.

Which Nietzsche coldly discerns at first as will-to-power.
which I then dissected as a matter of valuing.

All relating depends on valuing -
selective and productive relating - this is the only thing which can sustain any Existence.