Tyrannus, do you dislike the actions of the state or the existence of the state itself? What is your ideal alternative and how do you propose to make it ‘work’? I’m ignorant about these things, I assume the standards of living would go back to the 16th century overnight? Who would organise innoculations, dignified care of the mentally disabled, or the violent? All the things we take for granted? Wouldn’t it be better to try to improve the system from within than destroy it because it is flawed. What Governments do at a global level is only indicative of what we do to eachother as people. I do like to idea of individual sovereignty but I can’t see how we can just get rid of the state. Wouldn’t that be like getting rid of a lot of good things, as well as the bad?
Ok Tyrannus, how about YOU define “functions well” whichever way pleases you, and then find me a historical example of a society that does it in the absence of a state . . .
Unfortunately Hobbes didn’t realize that the state would necessarily end up being run by people like that, sociopaths.
I’m afraid you entirely miss the point of anti-statism.
Again, by virtue of the state being law-giver, the state is attractive to those who wish to be as far as possible above the law and use the law to dominate.
Now that the means of control the state has at its disposal have become so powerful, we need to abolish the state (as it is right now, as controlling every aspect of life) precisely in order to prevent people like “you” (yeah right, I saw your movie) from using it as an instrument.
Discerned ≡ distinguished and perceived as separate.
James, what is your take on Libertarianism?
I’m asking because it is the movement that appears right now to be the closest to advocating a system driven only by a set of principles based on the subject as a standard of value.
Of course they are strongly tied to Christianity, but this is a flexible religion, can be interpreted in many ways, among others simply as the sanctifier of the individual (God in man).
I think that radical right wing anti-statism (libertarianism) is very similar to radical left wing anti-statism (anarchism), in that their main tenets are mistrust of centralized power and trust in the capacity of the human species to take care of itself without central authority.
It would seem natural to try to bring them together in theory, see where the differences truly are.
Wow. He actually said that out loud.
…I knew he was one of the only actual men around here… 
And yeah, your assessment of Libertarians seems on mark.
But the Left and the Right are intentionally kept at extremes.
So there is no bringing them together.
I can already see the witch-hunts for “sociopaths”.
“Insanity is something rare in individuals—but in groups, parties, peoples, ages it is the rule.” (Nietzsche)
The only community that can do without the obligations to goodness and to recognition of God’s grace is what the scholar in the Kuzari calls “a community of robbers” (cf. my previous post): the philosophers are the only genuine individuals.
One can always try. And in fact I intend to.
These two movements are both equally close to my own views. For me there’s no reason to not try to merge them.
And in fact what you say should be an incentive to give this a shot, rather than a discouragement.
What does the sling represent in this case?
Can you really?
I admit that I use the term very freely these days. It’s in part a way to ventilate my disdain for the type of people that modern governments attracts.
There are some decent people there, of course, but in a system where corporate interests are merged with government, while at the same time government claims it is there as a representation of the people (the most dishonest system thinkable, which is not saying its the worst, it’s not), it is normal to assume that a certain very dishonest and cold type will be most successful.
There are exceptions to this rule, but nowhere near enough for critical mass.
Sociopathy is not at all the same as insanity.
Often people go insane because of an excess of compassion.
Rather the sociopath is extremely calculating, ‘‘sane’’ in terms of his own interest.
I doubt that.
I don’t think that individuality requires all the properties of a philosopher.
A philosopher is by definition a writer, or someone whose views are quoted by a philosopher (Socrates). This is not a requirement for individuality.
The sling is merely to deliver the stone.
Casting the stone is what you have to concentrate on.
…to “cast a stone” is to make an immutably solid object.
Define ‘distinguished’…
All witch-hunts end up being self-destructive (‘terrorism’ most obviously) so there’s no difference when it comes to sociopathy. But I wasn’t advocating a witch-hunt so much as an attempt to starve certain human behaviours by having the others steal their food.
That’s alright, you fascists (Christo- or otherwise) are all cowards hiding behind the glorious diffuse spectacle of the state anyway, I feel more than ready to beat you in a fight if it comes to that.
Individual appropriation. Propaganda of the deed.
Where do you live? And how much have you travelled to other places?
I admit, I’m not a great traveller by any means but even where I live I’ve seen more than enough to dispel any particular notion of ‘human nature’.
What you say may well be true, but I’d argue that those who squander their abilities are politically insignificant. Not in a ‘let’s pack them off to happy camps’ kind of way, more in a ‘they were never going to do anything anyway’ sort of way. The people who do give a shit, give a shit.
In which case they’ll buy into anarchy because we’ll give them a free toy, or something.
I agree, and what we’ve got are a bunch of people who are capable of being all the things I said - whatever else they may also be capable of.
Hey no shit, most people who call themselves anarchists are dipshits. But I’m seeking to define anarchism as something else on this thread, however limited and futile you might see that endeavor as being.
Also, I’m anti-state, not anti-government. One could have something that looks a bit like government in an anarchic society as I see it.
Tell me, what in your life has inspired you to be creative, funny, compassionate and so on?
Or anarchists who only work part-time, maybe.
Possibly because they spend most of the first 20 years of their life in state-controlled education centres (schools). But they don’t have to identify themselves as anarchists, or even believe in the dissolution of the state in order to be anarchists as I’m defining them.
5% more or less of anything is what makes the difference.
I see daily acts of kindness and compassion everywhere I go. I can’t convince you to see the same. I don’t know else to say about that.
Likewise, there’s not a lot of hope around in popular discourse. But I see this as the darkness before the light, if you like, the quiet before the storm. Never has there been more potential for revolution than when people are made to suppress both their dissatisfaction AND their hope.
As always. Which is why empowerment of that which is valuable and yet ordinary (in a human sense of ‘ordinary’) is what I believe in - if I tried to create a system or organisation of the conventional political type it would be co-opted and diverted.
When the state isn’t watching they are compassionate, most of the time anyway. That tells me something.
I don’t. But I don’t see much risk in approaching things as I do - what could go wrong with being optimistic about human potential? I might be proven wrong, but if that’s the worst outcome then fuck it, it’s a risk I’m willing to take.
I’m not talking about a violent overthrow or coup or a dissolution of the state in that sense. It’s not something that will be established and then have to find a way to stop the sociopaths resurrecting the state, it’s about advancing the opposite of sociopathic values, first, last and always. Sometimes real life gets in the way, of course, but often real life becomes easier by being this way.
Perhaps you’re not looking in the same places as I am.
Why would you be nervous about this?
There are even people within the state who embody these characteristics a lot of the time, so it isn’t just mythological, and like I say when the state isn’t watching, people behave markedly differently.
To be honest I think we’re always likely to be in the intermediate stage, and the measure of how anarchistic our society is derives from the human values I’ve listed. I don’t have a systemic plan for a transition to an ideal state - I’m not a Marxist or an anarcho-capitalist or any such ideologically committed historian. I do appreciate your disagreement, but like the dude in the Matrix said, my beliefs do not require you to believe in them.
10,000 years of hunter gatherer society.
… and 10,000 years of strife, struggle, disease, death, and oppression.
So why change it now?
Officially, I am re-introducing Christianity as philosophically viable.
The Christ = pure human self-valuing.
Baptism with fire = burning every culturally inherited valency bridge: Freedom.
Jesus = irrelevant.
Jesus was a value ontologist avant la lettre.
So I’m the second coming. But as I always said the second coming would not be a single human, but an elite.
The elite:
I
MM
JSS
Sauwelios
Parodites
Weary Locomotive
Pezer
BigTom
And, statistically, about a million others.
Don’t think I feel no shame and pain posting this drunken shit.
But in vino veritas and as Bill said: “Idiot, what do I matter?”
I’ll wait until you sober up before further comment…
:-"
It seems to me the distinction between leisure and work is an ill fit with anarchy.
It seems like you are defining them not for the qualities they have but for the qualities they would have in an alternate universe. If they make up the bulk of the population, which I Think they do, they are going to resist the Changes you are likely going to want to make. They may very well call in the state to enforce their fears about what you are doing. Not some of them, most of them.
So has it recently reached 5% and that’s why we do not have the dissolution of the state?
Within norms. Sure, I see them too. Where they fit the rules and categories sanctioned by norms and often the State.
OK
I figure that it’s best to go with what is. It seems to me there is too much assumption about what is hiding underneath conformity. If there are solutions, then these will come with a clear appraisal of what we know, even if that means the crack letting in a Little light is even smaller. One can have optimism without making more positive assessments.
The state arose out of what was less like a state - at least it seems this way. What will be different this time?
Perhaps. I Think I said earlier that there may simply be gaps between our perceptions and experiences and these may be hard to impossible to talk our way past.
First it Cuts both ways because it can also lead to overestimating the positive, which obviously I Think you have. In my experiences most people would find such a discussion uncomfortable. IN a sense what one is asking is 'are you more creative and intelligent than you seem to be? or Do you really want to conform or are you aching to throw off the bounds of state created norms? I can certainly come up with more diplomatic ways of trying to get at that information, but there is a damn good reason to be diplomatic there and that’s becasue people identify with those norms and also more and more see themselves and their Surfaces.
I’m not sure what you mean by the state watching. most of my interactions with people are not under state surveillance. People have internalized norms. When you say the state isn’t watching, what are the situations where the state is watching that you are thinking of?
That seems like a strange thing to say in context. What led you to Think I think your beliefs are dependent on mine? I assume it was something beyond my simply questioning your ideas and not agreeing.
I saw this in response to Sillouette…
I’ve travelled a lot, lived in a variety of places in the country of my birth, live now in Another country and have also lived in a country with a very different Culture from that of my birth country. Have had shorter stays in a number of countries other than the Three I have lived in for a long time. (the one I live in now is Another ‘Western nation’.) Human nature varies extremely. But what I saw everywhere I Went was that the bulk of the people Believe the norms of their Culture and these generally fit with that of their state. I saw anxiety in relation to what did not conform - at the least, some reactions much worse, even violent, and these worse reactions or the Calling in of the state in some way was Always likely if the lack of conformity was deemed really weird - even if it harmed no one. I encountered a general mixed at best reaction to creativity. Even when put on a pedastal, there were undercurrents of envy threat and interest in seeing the creative person taken down. Also creativity was generally accepted in ‘art’ - taken in a broad sense to include things like Music, etc. There was a main compartment for creativity. EVerywhere I Went I found people who were interested in a wider range of creativity, could tolerate and thrived in diversity in many facets of Life, etc. But these people were in a very small minority.
And by the way, I am not a pessimist. I just don’t see people the way you do. My optimism seems not to be dependent on what seems a rosy Picture of what they are ‘really’ like, despite appearances. And to be clear. I am not saying your optimism is hinged to the image you have of people. But it seemed like you had a kind of pascal’s Wager relationship to your faith in other people. And that you were potentially implying to be optimistic included this view of humans.