Bothered to do their own research? Dude that’s a canned objections that means jack shit. What are you gonna accuse me of an ad hom next? I don’t even remember how to respond to such worthless claims.
Him getting out of the car was inappropriate because he doesn’t have the authority to arrest or detain the kid. It’s also inappropriate because the 911 operator said she didn’t need him to follow, which I believe most people would take as an instruction. You can argue all the intricacies of that if you want, but I think it’s pretty plain as day. I’m taking that as evidence that he shouldn’t have gotten out of his car. If someone is in my kitchen while I’m cooking chili, and they start throwing spices into my shit, and I say, “I don’t need you to do that”, then they keep on, they’re fucking up my chili and it’s because the dumbass failed to understand that I didn’t need him to do that. How much clearer does it have to be? You wanna say it wasn’t illegal for him to follow the kid? At the very least it was irresponsible, and I can tell you that if the cops weren’t all so buddy buddy with him, they could have easily charged him with harassment, or menacing, or whatever they call it in Florida when a person does that.
How do I know he was coming after Martin? Because he said, “I’m sick of these guys always getting away”, then the 911 operator stated something to the effect of “don’t follow him”, then he got out of his car and followed him anyway. I know he was coming after him because he said he didn’t want him to get away and then he got out of his car and ended up in a fight with him. How much clearer can that be? How the fuck was he not coming after him???
Played a role in his own death?
I think it’s just as plausible that Zimmerman tried to hold him at gunpoint till the cops got there, and that Zimmerman defended himself and got shot in doing so. I think that lines up with the idea that a kid walking down the street doesn’t wanna be held up by some crazy fuck, and I think it goes along with Zimmerman’s overzealous wannabe law enforcement mentality.
So why buy the crazy story that this kid went from running away, to hiding behind a bush and then jumping out and ambushing the guy?
You think Zimmerman went from bully to scared for his life, and you think Martin went from pursued to aggressor, but why do you think this? Why would both of them switch roles once no one else could see what was happening?
It means you haven’t bothered to do any research, which is clear from what you write. I think you heard about the case then immediately jumped to conclusions without gathering any new information.
He probably wasn’t trying to arrest or detain him.
If anything, that means “don’t follow”, not “stay in your car”.
That’s because you probably don’t know what you’re talking about. Also, that’s a pretty sad standard for evidence.
So now you’re an expert on the law as well as human behavior? Impressive, bro.
To say he was “coming after” Martin implies that he wanted to confront Martin, which is pure speculation. Nothing you’ve said supports that claim.
If you just meant that he was following, I’d hardly disagree.
Lots of things seem plausible. That doesn’t mean Martin didn’t play a role.
Maybe that’s how it really happened. Life is crazy sometimes.
Yes of course. But keep in mind she said there was not enough evidence to convict Zimmerman, not that any of the evidence exonerated him. She still thinks the guy is guilty.
i suppose i don’t know for certain either, but i really, really doubt it. Zimmerman doesn’t have to be a racist in order for this to be about race. Hell Zimmerman could be black and this would still be about race. We are taught by the media and culture that black people who dress a certain way are criminals. It’s a little more subtle than that, but that’s essentially what profiling is all about.
No clearly it isn’t that cut and dry. There are mitigating factors and there are things we just don’t know. For instance, i’m pretty sure it wasn’t premeditated. i don’t think Zimmerman was planning to kill the kid, even as he was following him. He may have been prepared to kill him, but that’s different. i think it’s clear Zimmerman was looking for a confrontation of some sort, but i’m guessing that pulling the trigger was really a heat of the moment decision.
i wouldn’t expect him not to protect himself, but given that he essentially provoked the fight, and his opponent was unarmed, i don’t think he was justified in fatally shooting him and claiming self-defense. That’s simply not how things ought to work, otherwise people can just arm themselves, go around picking fights (or doing stupid shit that causes fights) and then blowing someone away anytime they start losing one of said fights.
So we know Zimmerman had a free arm and enough room between him and Martin to draw, press the gun to Martin’s chest and pull the trigger. We also know Martin was unarmed. Did he have Zimmerman by the throat or something? What in that scenario indicates that Zimmerman’s life was realistically in danger? Zimmerman was the one with the gun in his hand.
Stat youre crazy man. You just keep saying im not citing facts, but ive said the same thing 3 times. You have no position. You wont say what you think happened. But you say it cant be the case that this or that happened. Commit to a best possible explanation where someone is at fault for this killing and lemme see what that looks like.
I think it happened mostly as Zimmerman said in his account to police here.
That’s after they ran the story through a lie detector test with no evidence of deceit. Anyway, I don’t know about the gun. Why it was on him to begin with and when, and how, it came into play. I don’t think he is a racist and I don’t think he “profiled” Martin the way you do. There had apparently been a bunch of burglaries in the neighborhood by young black males. Some were caught, some not. That’s not racism mind you; it’s a fact.
I just don’t think what he did was murder. I think his actions deserve consequences, just not those suited for murderers.
Lastly, I think the media has played a rather contemptible role in all of this.
i don’t place much stock in Zimmerman’s account - or at least i take it with a LOT of salt - he was trying to beat a murder charge, after all - and lie detectors work maybe half the time.
That said, i don’t necessarily think it was murder either. Like you, i think it was at the very least foolhardy and stupid and deserves legal consequences (if only to deter others from similar actions). i also think America’s gun culture and the idiot laws that it spawns (like “stand your ground”) deserve a big part of the blame. The media is what it is - and it always makes a convenient scapegoat - but ultimately, it’s the only source most people outside the courtroom have for what happened that night.
i do think he was profiled - but i suppose we can disagree on that.
Anyway, thanks for hashing things out with me Statik - always a pleasure to talk to you.
I suppose my question to her would be: Guilty of what?
It’s not about the portrayal of blacks in the media though. It’s about groups of primarily black kids robbing people. The case is about race only insofar as race relates to the conditions that produce criminals, like poverty. Like I said, I think it’s a cultural thing. And it’s something that black people contribute to.
But why do you think he was looking for a confrontation? I think it’s more accurate to say he assumed the risk of confrontation.
I agree. I just don’t think the shot was meant to be fatal, so I’m kind of left asking myself if he was justified in pulling the trigger. What happened after that seems incidental, but no less important.
I don’t think he pressed the gun to his chest. I think he basically drew the gun and fired straight in front of him while Martin was on top of him. Zimmerman claimed that Martin was on top of him and reached for the gun, telling Zimmerman “you’re going to die tonight motherfucker”. I guess he feared what would happen if Martin got that gun. That part is dubious to me.
You too UPF. Thanks for keeping the conversation constructive.
I agree with everything you said above. But I think “profiled” can be a tricky word. I think Martin loosely fit the description of kids who had actually been committing crimes in the neighborhood. It’s just an unfortunate fact that they happened to be black males dressed in certain ways. I think we ought to be asking ourselves why that is rather than focusing all our attention on why Zimmerman profiled Martin. So, yeah, I agree he was profiled, just not based solely on race. When I hear about profiling, I generally picture someone looking for an excuse to harass someone else. I don’t think Zimmerman profiled Martin in that sense.
Statik, i was going to take a break from this particular discussion, but you raise some good points which i thought deserved response:
A fair question. i wonder if she would even have an answer.
Oh, it’s very much about the portrayal of blacks in the media. Groups of White guys in suits rob people all the time too, but they usually get off much easier, and we don’t as a result automatically assume that every white guy in a suit is selling shoddy mortgage based securities, even though white guys in suits do have a recent history of doing stuff like that.
But you’re right that black people do contribute to it - even profit off it - and it’s self-defeating. But that doesn’t mean it’s fair or justified to react to someone who looks like Martin as though they are a burglar.
If he wasn’t looking for a confrontation, he wouldn’t have gotten out of the car and started following Martin, it’s that simple. i don’t believe he was just trying to keep Martin in sight - he was told he didn’t need to do that. i think he was looking to catch Martin and be the hero when the cops arrived. And to do that, he would obviously have to confront him.
Dubious to me as well. i was under the impression that forensic evidence indicated that the gun was pressed to Martin’s chest at the time the gun was fired - but perhaps i’m misinformed? i still find it difficult to imagine how he could draw the gun and fire straight in front of him if Martin was on top of him - especially if Martin was also reaching for the gun at the same time.
People want all guilty people to go to prison and all innocent people to get off. Fortunately the law recognizes that there is going to have to be a significant set of people who are acquitted who may in fact be guilty. The law is supposed to err on that side - it has often leaned the other way, for example dependent on the race of the accused. Zimmerman may be guilty of something criminal, but we don’t know, so the judgement was probably a good one - given what I have heard. This does not mean he is innocent. And he was reckless. No way someone I thought was a criminal who I had seen from my car could have gotten me on the ground. Not because I am superhero, but because I would have been back in the car before he got within leaping range. This avoids having to shoot someone who might do more than punch me but might not. And that is working from Zimmerman’s account. To my mind at best the guy is reckless and showed very poor judgment qualities that should preclude gun ownership.