If determinism is true, everything we think, feel, believe, do etc. is just a knee jerk reflex. It’s natural. It’s natural in that it comes wholly from nature. The fact that some don’t believe it is doesn’t change that. Our problem is we don’t seem to know for certain if this is true.
But doesn’t reason enter into it here only as an inherent manifestation of matter evolving into it per the immutable laws of matter? The “mental” is merely matter that has been manipulated [molded] by nature into imagining it is not manipulated at all. That it is “free” to choose its own way.
Yes, in a physicalist determinism the mental is really matter with new emerged but still physical and determined qualities.
Then I am not clear on what might be construed as a non-physicalist determinism. If minds are a kind of matter and matter is a kind of energy and all three interact in space-time per the immutable laws of nature then this entire exchange we are having is only as it could have been. “I” either have some measure of autonomy here or “I” don’t.
In other words:
I get stuck on the idea that, given determinism, to choose one thing as opposed to something else is just an illusion. What is happening actually is what actually must happen. “I” have nothing to do with it other then in having acquired matter in my brain that evolved to the point I can note this. But I cannot not note this
The man - I assume - iambiguous - that body will do this and not that. The causes may include calculated preferences. In a physicalist determinism these preferences and the process for arriving at them - which would be in that conception some mixture of nature and nuture - is of course determined. But that body cannot be taken out of the equation. It is not like the whole of you has no effects, that is what V is trying to point out.
I understand that I have effects. I understand that I choose what I do in order to generate these effects. But if I could not not have chosen these things how is that really different from the effects falling dominoes have on each other?
Two scenarios:
I choose to shoot John and he dies. Or, John gets drunk, passes out on the beach and, as a result of the incoming tide, he drowns. I am not like the tide in that I chose to shoot John. But I am exactly like the tide in that I could not have chosen not to do what I did. Either way it has been determined by the laws of nature that John be dead.
Or, maybe, as you suggest below, the tides themselves harbor the illusion of choosing to ebb and flow.
You say:
You have effects, you go through a process of choosing (and many sub-processes of deciding, for example what is true, good, etc.) but these are all determined, yes. Whether consciousness has any effect, the conscious ‘I’ is an issue within physicalism - see epiphenomenalism.
But yeah, sure, if determinism is correct, you[r] choices tomorrow were well determined already in the first seconds of the Big Bang.
Which is why some subscribe [cling?] to the idea that it is not correct. They have a deep-seated intuitive sense of “choosing” between alternative effects.
These things are always situated [for each of us] in a particular world rooted in a particular time and place. Evolution [human biology] provides us with the capacity to be either kind or cruel. Does it provide us with the capacity to choose one over the other? Does it provide us with the capacity to encounter new experiences, new relationshipos, new points of view…and change our minds?
Determinism doesn’t eliminate nature. It seems like in the paragraph previous to this last you focus on nurture, culture and then in the second express a concern about the loss of nature in determining actions. Well, the development of new things seems to be determined, if determinism is correct. And humans, unlike other animals, can as individuals change due to an incredibly wide range of factors. We tend to have more flexible learning systems.
Determinism here would seem to be a way in which to describe the methodology of nature. Nature unfolds as it was determined to unfold given that all the “stuff” in nature interacts in accordance with laws that do not exclude us. Nurture then is just the way nature unfolds [must unfold] for each of us postpartum. Dasein therefore is merely something I was unable not to embrace as an alternative approach to understanding why I chose what I did. It’s just the illusion I harbor about my alleged autonomy.
If I was absolutely convinced of determinism – if science demonstrated it beyond all doubt – I would think: I may be kind toward children, I may be cruel. But my choice to be one or the other is mine only in the sense that a lightbulb chooses to be on or off depending on the position of the switch.
In some ways that might comfort me, in other ways it might not. But so what? My reaction is also just a manifestation of the ineluctable law of matter.
Sure, but it seems to me part of your concern was that if determinism was true people would be more cruel.
If determinism is true cruelity and kindness would seen to be interchangable. John raped Mary. John stopped Joe from raping Mary. What difference does it make if Joe could not choose freely to do one thing rather than another? We can react as we do…and the legal system can prevail and John or Joe gets locked up. But none of this could have been otherwise.
And here is where it really gets surreal [for me]: What does it mean for a conscious mind to know this when it could not itself have known otherwise?
Mind is the mystery here. It always has been. Why? Because, volchok’s declamations aside, it really is matter of an entirely different sort.
Unless, of course, it’s not.
Your rape example - or was it mine. I do not think this is the case. I understand how the idea depresses you, but I don’t see yet why determinism being true and/or your belief in it would make you be less moral.
My being more or less moral is like the tides ebbing or flowing. It is what it is because it could not have been otherwise. And my being more or less depressed can only be understood in the same thing. If determinism is true it happens because it could not not happen.
And you and I and volchok knowing this in the manner in which we do is the only manner in which we could have known it.
You mean if you became convinced determinism was true you would no longer be an ironist, no longer see conflicting sides in moral and political issues, etc.?
Yes, but I would be like Arnold Schwarzenegger’s terminator. I would make choices but only as I was programed to by nature.
No, notice your confusion here. You would have already been doing this all along. I understand how it is a depressing idea, but you have seemed several time to have implied that it would cause you to be different ethically, or here around irony.
I don’t understand this. I can only be different ethically if I have the autonomous capacity to choose to be cruel or kind. And this will be embedded largely in dasein. But then others who are also able to choose autonomously [as dasein] will reconfigure the world such that the ripple effect might impact on me such that I choose to change my mind.
If determinism is true everything that happens, like my reaction to everything that happens, will simply be what happens. End of story. Nature prevails as it must. And not even nature has a choice about it. It’s just that somehow matter has evolved into consciousness—consciouness able somehow to be cognizant of this. But not able to freely change it.
Try to separate the two ideas: in one we are talking about how your view of what was happening would change. In the other we are talking about how you would act differently.
My view of something can change. And, as a result, I change my behavior. But, if determinism is true, they are just different sides of the same coin.
If, for example, volchok were to reconfigure his argument and suddenly I saw why I was wrong to embrace the one I do now, that is only what would [could] have happened anyway. He figured it out before I did. But he could not have done otherwise.
Or maybe I will reconfigure my argument about dasein and ironism and he will suddenly see the light and admit that he is wrong.
But, in the end, to me, if determinism is true, this is really no different for all practical purposes than the tides ebbing and flowing.