Free will and why it doesn't really matter.

[Stoic Guardian]

There have been quite a few discussions about/or which included the concept of whether or not we have free will. I believe that we do but...

One thing i'd like to say is how unimportant I think it is really, whether everything is determined or whether or not we have free will.

Simply because whatever the truth is, we are already acting it out no matter what we believe, basically if we have free will, then we have free will and we choose what we willed to choose.

And if we don't we either believe we have free will because it's determined or we don't.

No need to review morals or court systems because these things are determined(or they're not).

Either way...

Then again if there determined then I guess you can't help it.

Also can someone tell me the differance between fatalism and determinism?

[eyesinthedark]

Without reading a dictionary, fatalism is a species of determinsm, a religious or spiritual determinism, fatalism means your ultimate end or outcome was preordained by the Gods, or by karma. It could also mean, a pessimistic or cynical determinism - there's no way in hell we can prevent things from becoming worse than they are.

[James S Saint]

The differences are pretty much mere connotative emphasis.
Determinism focuses on logical causality.
Fatalism focuses on futility of effort.

Determinism doesn't suggest that one should not try as it allows for one's behavior as a part of the determination of future states.
Fatalism suggests that no attempt you make can change anything, effectively removing the person as a determining factor.

Determinism = "there is a cause for everything" - Science.
Fatalism = "Give up. Resistance is futile" - Domination, social engineering.

Determinism = Free-will means the freedom to act upon one's will without substantial obstruction.
Fatalism = There is no Free-will. Submit to your doom.

[Stoic Guardian]

Well i still don't see any differance other than semantics, I mean if all this stuff is determined and you have no free will in the matter than your perception (or chaneg in peception) is already set.

Some people have tried to differentiate between free will and choice, but you think about it enough and it really is the same thing.

[James S Saint]

The difference is merely whether it inspires you to stand up and try, or to give up and die.
"Nothing can die until it fails to try."

[eyesinthedark]

Problem - I can't help being a child rapist, you see I was born that way, runs in the family, my daddy did it to me, and my daddy's daddy did it to him, it's genetics + upbringing, I'm a natural born serial rapist, and I didn't choose my genetics and my upbringing, anymore than I choose for it to rain tomorrow, are you gonna blame me if it rains tomorrow?

Possible Solutions - I didn't choose to hate child rapists either, I was born/brought up that way, so I'll hate you for it, even if you're not ultimately responsible. If I punish you, this may event may help deter you or others like you from raping kids. I hate you and I want to kill you because of who and what you are, or who and what you do, not because you chose to do think bad thoughts and do bad things, but simply because you think bad things and do bad things. Redefine choice, choice no longer means absolute freedom, rather, it means you wanted to do x when you knew x was wrong and/illegal, and you knew you easily could have physically done y.

[Stoic Guardian]

The difference is merely whether it inspires you to stand up and try, or to give up and die.
"Nothing can die until it fails to try."

But if it's predetermined...

Then it's already decided whther your going to be negative or positive in your attitude towards it.

[eyesinthedark]

The solution is this - I am predetermined to try to improve my life tomorrow, knowing whether or not everything is predetermined, is not itself a cause of my behavior. except for my philosophical behavior. Hunger is a sufficient cause for me to get up and go to work tomorrow, knowing whether my getting up and going to work tomorrow has a cause or not, has little or nothing to do with it, infact, thinking that my behavior has no cause, may even inhibit me from doing something.

[James S Saint]

"But Judge, I was forced to do it by my genes"
"No problem. But I am forced to sentence you by MY genes."

[Stoic Guardian]

Problem - I can't help being a child rapist, you see I was born that way, runs in the family, my daddy did it to me, and my daddy's daddy did it to him, it's genetics + upbringing, I'm a natural born serial rapist, and I didn't choose my genetics and my upbringing, anymore than I choose for it to rain tomorrow, are you gonna blame me if it rains tomorrow?

Possible Solutions - I didn't choose to hate child rapists either, I was born/brought up that way, so I'll hate you for it, even if you're not ultimately responsible. If I punish you, this may event may help deter you or others like you from raping kids. I hate you and I want to kill you because of who and what you are, or who and what you do, not because you chose to do think bad thoughts and do bad things, but simply because you think bad things and do bad things.

My thoughts exactely, some people say well he couldn't help it why punish him?

Because I can't help it, it's determined I punish him .

Like I said either way there doesn't seem to be a large differance, the only differance is what you place blame on

Redefine choice, choice no longer means absolute freedom, rather, it means you wanted to do x when you knew x was wrong and/illegal, and you knew you easily could have physically done y.

What do you mean by this.

[eyesinthedark]

Choice doesn't mean your choices weren't predetermined by your genes, or your upbringing, or your experiences and (mis)interpretations of your experiences, or what have you, rather, choice means you knew you could have physically done x, y or z, and you did/wanted to do x, not that your doing/wanting x was uncaused by previous events, but simply that you were aware of multiple options before you wanted/did x, your decision was still determined by who and what you are, a product of nature/nurture, and your limited awareness of the potential cosequences of taking option x, over y or z.

Or to make things simpler, choice could become synonymous with the word want. He chose to do x, he wated to do x, he did what he wanted to do, choice = being able to do what you want to do, not an uncaused doing what you want to do, a causeed doing what you want to do.

[eyesinthedark]

I have a choice = I am able to do what I want to do, relatively speaking, as no one is able to do exactly what they want to do, chose = I did what I wanted to do, not I'm free to want whatever I want, the wanting + doing was predetermined by your nature/nurture.

[Joe Schmoe]

My thoughts exactely, some people say well he couldn't help it why punish him?

Because I can't help it, it's determined I punish him .

Like I said either way there doesn't seem to be a large differance, the only differance is what you place blame on

If there's no Free Will, people don't deserve to be punished. I would argue it's not even rational to punish people as a deterrent. Punishing people after the fact, is a crude and stupid act done out of our ignorance to think of a more humane method to stop crime.

If someone goes around hurting others, our mentality should (my belief) be that we need to protect society from this person until they pose no threat. This means jail.

I think people need to be protected from the type of ignorance you just spewed out.

[eyesinthedark]

Hey, if the punishment for rape is having your testicles removed, then I suspect fewer people would do it, I'm not saing that should be the punishment for rape, I'm just say you have to factor deterence in the decision making process, if my the punishment for rape or murder was to go to this tropical island resort, where you would be isolated from society for 10 years, but live a life of ease and comfort, the rape murder rate would go up, let me tell you.

[Stoic Guardian]

Sorry It can't be helped ...

Well if you belive that anyway.

The thing is theres no such thing as deterrant then really, things will or won't be period. If you believe this way that is...

Also what does deserved have to do with anything if everythings determined?

People get what they get. I often don't even see punishment as being a detterant I see it as a form of retribution.

[Joe Schmoe]

Hey, if the punishment for rape is having your testicles removed, then I suspect fewer people would do it, I'm not saing that should be the punishment for rape, I'm just say you have to factor deterence in the decision making process, if my the punishment for rape or murder was to go to this tropical island resort, where you would be isolated from society for 10 years, but live a life of ease and comfort, the rape murder rate would go up, let me tell you.

I addressed deterrents. I'm saying removing someone's testicles may be efficient, but not humane.

Hypothetically, if we could alter someone so the idea of rape seems utterly repulsive, I say this is a far more humane way to deal with the situation. The methods we use today are often crude and perpetuate ignorance. I am against this.

Also, if people could go to that tropical island without raping, there wouldn't be correlation to that and rape statistics.

[eyesinthedark]

Plus, nothing we do is 100% caused by reason, wants and needs, whether they be emotional or mental, ill informed or informed, are extrarational, at least in part, so wanting to live, isn't necessarily any more rational than wanting to kill those who've harmed you, or wanting to punish someone for being who and what they are, if who and what they are wasn't chosen, isn't necessarily any less rational than if who and what they are was 'chosen' (the way you used that word). I don't care if someone wants to attack me because it's in his nature to attack me or not (how could he even attack me if it wasn't, was his behavior purely random, undetermined by his past naturing/nurturing, and therefore unpredictable? In that case, a serial child murderer might become Mother Theresa tomorrow, and then we would have no grounds for locking him up, would we?), I only care that he attacked me and that he wanted to attack me, for me, that is sufficient grounds to hate him and destroy him or her.

[Joe Schmoe]

People get what they get. I often don't even see punishment as being a detterant I see it as a form of retribution.

I'm inclined to feel sympathy for these people. They've been unlucky enough to raised in such an environment that led them to crime. Now they're going to locked away and made an example of.

Seems like a shit deal to me. Why do you want retribution? What you need is understanding and empathy.

[Stoic Guardian]

Plus, nothing we do is 100% caused by reason, wants and needs, whether they be emotional or mental, ill informed or informed, are extrarational, at least in part, so wanting to live, isn't necessarily any more rational than wanting to kill those who've harmed you, or wanting to punish someone for being who and what they are, if who and what they are wasn't chosen, isn't necessarily any less rational than if it was 'chosen' (the way you used that word. I don't care if someone wants to attack me because it's in his nature to attack me or not (how could he even attack me if it wasn't, what is his behavior purely random, undetermined and therefore unpredictable, in that case, a serial child murder might become mother theresa tomorrow, and then we would have no grounds for locking people up), I only care that he attacked me and that he wanted to attack me, for me, that is sufficient grounds for me to hate him and destroy him or her.

[Joe Schmoe]

Plus, nothing we do is 100% caused by reason, wants and needs, whether they be emotional or mental, ill informed or informed, are extrarational, at least in part, so wanting to live, isn't necessarily any more rational than wanting to kill those who've harmed you, or wanting to punish someone for being who and what they are, if who and what they are wasn't chosen, isn't necessarily any less rational than if it was 'chosen' (the way you used that word. I don't care if someone wants to attack me because it's in his nature to attack me or not (how could he even attack me if it wasn't, what is his behavior purely random, undetermined and therefore unpredictable, in that case, a serial child murder might become mother theresa tomorrow, and then we would have no grounds for locking people up), I only care that he attacked me and that he wanted to attack me, for me, that is sufficient grounds for me to hate him and destroy him or her.

It's rational to consider what your goal is. What do you want to achieve in life? If it's continued existence, I would argue it is not rational to cling to the mentality of an eye for an eye.

[Stoic Guardian]

People get what they get. I often don't even see punishment as being a detterant I see it as a form of retribution.

I'm inclined to feel sympathy for these people. They've been unlucky enough to raised in such an environment that led them to crime. Now they're going to locked away and made an example of.

Seems like a shit deal to me. Why do you want retribution? What you need is understanding and empathy.

I can punish or kill someone i have sympathy for...

Besides enviroment seems to have little to do with it, in the larger scheme of things...

[Joe Schmoe]

You could, but I think you'd lose the will to.

[eyesinthedark]

Continued existence is only one, albeit one of the most important ones, of my goals in life, some of my others are to slaughter my enemies, jerk off and impress people with my wit, regardless of whether they provide me with a survival advantage or not, I wish that everything I like doing did, but some of the things I like doing don't, therefore I'm forced to make sacrifices, life is full of dilemmas, there exists a plurality of needs and wants within us all, and are circumstances force us to compromise and prioritise, like isn't so crystal clear cut and dry, life is complex, life is dirty, messy, you're thinking like an idealist.

[Joe Schmoe]

I agree with what you've said. So if I'm thinking like an idealist, so are you...

[Flannel Jesus]

I really don't see why fatalism and determinism are confused with each other.

Fate -- It was Oedipus's fate that he would kill his father and marry his mother, and there was nothing he could do to change that from eventually happening.

Determinism doesn't involve any specific unavoidable future. Determinism isn't "this is going to happen and there's nothing you can do about it." A determinist doesn't know the future -- there's no unavoidable fate, there's no "futility of action" concept. In determinism, contrary to fatalism, your actions clearly have consequences -- just because your actions are determined doesn't mean they don't have consequences.

In fact, you can simultaneously believe in fatalism and deny determinism. In definition 2 of fatalism on wiki, it says "That actions are free, but nevertheless work toward an inevitable end." So the behavior of individual humans, according to some fatalists, is completely outside of determinism -- the end is determined, but individual actions are not. Determinism is nothing like that. Determinism is every little detail, every choice, everything is determined. Not just the end.

Fate is like destiny -- a Disney concept. Not fit for thinking adults.