Materialism.

[phyllo]

I agree with your first sentence, everything after that is an assumption.

Do you have an example of science describing something other than matter or energy?

[phyllo]

The experiencer and info are not physical.

You are not physical?
Information is a pattern of matter and/or energy.

Colour is observable yet nonmaterial.

Colour is electromagnetic energy which is converted to electrical impulses by cells in the eye.

[Amorphos]

You are not physical?

Nope; it depends, what is ‘energy’ ~ if it can be the very thing you ‘are’ as an experiencer right now [lets not gloss over it by attempting to define that by other things, as it still is what we experience it to be], and if it can be colour, info and other qualia, then yes I am physical. Yet now we have redefined ‘energy’ as some mystical substance which can manifest things out of thin air, or at least as something we wouldn’t normally think of energy as!

Information is a pattern of matter and/or energy.

that’s one kind of info, but the info you are experiencing in your consciousness as you read this is conceptual, and not just patterns and shapes.

Colour is electromagnetic energy which is converted to electrical impulses by cells in the eye.

Nope, colour is perceptual [watch horizon; do we see the same thing [on bbc I-player or on you-tube]]. …if colour was photons then how can it also be electrons?

[Moreno]

A greek philospher once set out, much like you, to disprove the materialist theory of existance.

He stood in front of a bull and told his student that he was safe, the bull wasn't really there.

The bull trampled him and he died a horrible, agonizing death.

Which Greek philosopher was this? didn't he realize that he was part of the dream too and hence vulnerable to dream bulls? How does this support materialism, in any case? There is all sorts of stuff that cannot trample you to death that is supposedly material, billions of little pieces of this are coursing through your body right now without touching it. And even those things have mass. Some things don't. What does the word material mean?

[Moreno]

The experiencer and info are not physical.

You are not physical?
Information is a pattern of matter and/or energy.

So notice that energy is presumed here to be physical - making the word mean....what?. And then also, what if matter and energy are really information?

[phyllo]

that’s one kind of info, but the info you are experiencing in your consciousness as you read this is conceptual, and not just patterns and shapes.

My brain is a pattern. What I read is a pattern. How I understand what I read is another pattern created from the intersection of those two patterns.

Nope, colour is perceptual [watch horizon; do we see the same thing [on bbc I-player or on you-tube]]. …if colour was photons then how can it also be electrons?

Photons have certain energy levels. Energy is the ability to move matter. Photons hitting the eye stimulate the release of electrons (move matter in other words) which travel to the brain. The brain creates a spacial map of photon energy and direction. When a person 'sees' , he/she is detecting different energy levels coming from surrounding objects.

[FilmSnob]

A greek philospher once set out, much like you, to disprove the materialist theory of existance.

He stood in front of a bull and told his student that he was safe, the bull wasn't really there.

The bull trampled him and he died a horrible, agonizing death.

Which Greek philosopher was this? didn't he realize that he was part of the dream too and hence vulnerable to dream bulls? How does this support materialism, in any case? There is all sorts of stuff that cannot trample you to death that is supposedly material, billions of little pieces of this are coursing through your body right now without touching it. And even those things have mass. Some things don't. What does the word material mean?

The word material means the guy is dead by bull. He didn't wake up, and if he did, his material corpse suffered no changes as a consequence.

Hey Moreno, how many angels fit on the tip of a needle?

[phyllo]

So notice that energy is presumed here to be physical - making the word mean....what?. And then also, what if matter and energy are really information?

The OP is about materialism which is according to wikipedia :

In philosophy, the theory of materialism holds that the only thing that exists is matter or energy; that all things are composed of material and all phenomena (including consciousness) are the result of material interactions.

If life is a dream then it is a dream about matter and energy.

What does 'matter and energy are really information' actually mean?

[Moreno]

In philosophy, the theory of materialism holds that the only thing that exists is matter or energy; that all things are composed of material and all phenomena (including consciousness) are the result of material interactions.

Well, notice the strangeness right off. Materialism holds.......matter and energy. Why is it materialism if it includes energy? Why use that word? Notice filmsnobs example. We are supposed to laugh knowingly when the material bull runs the guy over, but matter like this is only a tiny fraction of what is considered material. And what is considered material, the set, has expanded, with new members of that set being radically different from earlier members. What does that label mean? What is it ruling out and how would we know?

If life is a dream then it is a dream about matter and energy.

Whatever that means. Those are words meant to fit the experience of upright primates. Metaphors, if broad ones. What matter and energy are in and of themselves is, well, hard to know. We have two very abstract, enormously encompassing words, that cover an expanding set. I am not sure what you have even ruled out, since, for example, even angels might turn out to be 'matter', for all we know.

What does 'matter and energy are really information' actually mean?

[/quote]It's not my idea, it's an idea some physicists have. That once you get in what is called matter you don't find little 'things' but rather information.

It is a subset position within Digital Physics...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_ph ... rom_bit.22

n 1990, Wheeler suggested that information is fundamental to the physics of the universe. According to this "it from bit" doctrine, all things physical are information-theoretic in origin.[6]

Wheeler: It from bit. Otherwise put, every "it" — every particle, every field of force, even the space-time continuum itself — derives its function, its meaning, its very existence entirely — even if in some contexts indirectly — from the apparatus-elicited answers to yes-or-no questions, binary choices, bits. "It from bit" symbolizes the idea that every item of the physical world has at bottom — a very deep bottom, in most instances — an immaterial source and explanation; that which we call reality arises in the last analysis from the posing of yes — no questions and the registering of equipment-evoked responses; in short, that all things physical are information-theoretic in origin and that this is a participatory universe.

[Moreno]

The word material means the guy is dead by bull. He didn't wake up, and if he did, his material corpse suffered no changes as a consequence.

Well, that's not what the word material means. That he was trampled tells us nothing about ontology and certainly not as a whole.

Hey Moreno, how many angels fit on the tip of a needle?

I dunno, as many as the amount of neutrinos passing through you now?

[phyllo]

And what is considered material, the set, has expanded, with new members of that set being radically different from earlier members. What does that label mean? What is it ruling out and how would we know?

We can look farther and finer so we see more matter and energy now perhaps. I don't see how it is expanding in any other sense. We have experienced two things and we put the labels of matter and energy on them. Materialism says that's all there is. Is there something else? What else have you experienced?

I am not sure what you have even ruled out, since, for example, even angels might turn out to be 'matter', for all we know.

Is there evidence of angels? Would they be detected as matter or energy? Is there a third element of existence besides matter and energy? If there is, we are not aware of it now. Maybe when we die, we pass into another dimension of non-physical existence. Maybe.

It's not my idea, it's an idea some physicists have. That once you get in what is called matter you don't find little 'things' but rather information.

It is a subset position within Digital Physics...

I've read a bit about it but never really got it.

[FilmSnob]

It is exactly what materialism means.

[Moreno]

And what is considered material, the set, has expanded, with new members of that set being radically different from earlier members. What does that label mean? What is it ruling out and how would we know?

We can look farther and finer so we see more matter and energy now perhaps. I don't see how it is expanding in any other sense. [/quote] You have particles with no mass, fields, things that can be in the same place at the same time as other things. Entanglement. You have quantum effects used by large organisms in perception - and likely in other ways also. You have one dimensional 'things'. We are constantly adding to known phenomena and our 'things' have new qualities or lack those we associate with matter. There is no rule about what we will find exists or will not find exists. We just have methodologies and we are just as a certain point in time in Science.

We have experienced two things and we put the labels of matter and energy on them. Materialism says that's all there is. Is there something else? What else have you experienced?

Saying that's all there is means nothing. Since we find things that we did not know were there with regularity. You questions imply that we should treat current knowledge as final.

Is there evidence of angels? Would they be detected as matter or energy? Is there a third element of existence besides matter and energy? If there is, we are not aware of it now. Maybe when we die, we pass into another dimension of non-physical existence. Maybe.

That wasn't the point. The point was that saying everything is matter is very much like saying everything (that we have determined exists) exists. Because let me tell you, if scientists discover anything all, regardless of its qualities, they will likely call it whatever it is, a part of materialism. That is what they have done up until now.

[Moreno]

It is exactly what materialism means.

So matter is something that can trample you? Photons are not matter? Defending materialism and demonstrating that everything is matter is demonstrated by showing that bulls can trample someone? yeah, that doesn't work for me, and not as a response to the OP.

[ZenKitty]

Snap. Was that in Batislavia?

Anyways, let's talk about "physicalism" (the same thing as materialism, just updated). Try to stay with me on this one...

What is 'physical'? Just what obeys the laws of physics.
What are the laws of physics? Just the laws of the universe.
What is the universe? Well, 'universe' is synonymous with 'everything'.
Therefore, everything is physical.

That's by definition, son.

I will update your argument with what the laws of physics actually are.

What is 'physical'? Just what obeys the laws of physics.
What are the laws of physics? Just a regularity of numbers.
What is a regularity of numbers? Well, they are numbers that follow one another.
Therefore, everything are numbers that follow one another.

[Moreno]

]What is 'physical'? Just what obeys the laws of physics.

And the laws of physics are now coming into question, and that is within Science itself. That these are not timeless. That they change over time and also may be local. The concept may need reworking.

[ZenKitty]

I'm gonna do you a favor:

Materialism=The study of observable reality.

Is observable reality mind-independent?

[FilmSnob]

A photon is matter.

E=(+-MC)(squared)

[FilmSnob]

I'm gonna do you a favor:

Materialism=The study of observable reality.

Is observable reality mind-independent?

More like the mind is observable-reality dependent.

[Moreno]

A photon is matter.

E=(+-MC)(squared)

LOL. I never said it wasn't. Read my post again.

[ZenKitty]

The bull is a material reality. Everything is a material reality. "I am not a solipcist" is no argument.

You keep begging the question and present no argument to support it. The bull is sensory qualities. Do you deny that the bull is sensory qualities, or what you experience?

[ZenKitty]

I'm gonna do you a favor:

Materialism=The study of observable reality.

Is observable reality mind-independent?

More like the mind is observable-reality dependent.

Really? Has anyone observable your mind? I think this is logically impossible, which means that is not "observable", and observable means it is possible to observe. If it is impossible for you to observe another person mind then mind is not observable. That would mean that the mind is not reality dependent as you say.

[Moreno]

FilmSnob wrote:I'm gonna do you a favor:

Materialism=The study of observable reality.

They why use the word materialism. It is a word with a metaphysical element. Observe has a tendency to elicit the idea of visual recognition. There is much of reality that we cannot observe. I think detect, is a better verb. Or verify.

But for some reason there is this huge reluctance to let go of physical and material as descriptive terms for everything despite their obvious inadequacy.

[von Rivers]

What is 'physical'? Just what obeys the laws of physics.
What are the laws of physics? Just the laws of the universe.
What is the universe? Well, 'universe' is synonymous with 'everything'.
Therefore, everything is physical.

That's by definition, son. Suppose you want to argue that if everything is physical, then the term loses content. Well that's fine, I'm on board... but then stop arguing for something non-physical.

Expose the blood sacrificing, horoscope reading supernaturalist quacks for what they are... Magic 8 ball cult occultists.

That last line might be a bit extreme... if so, I appologize.

[ZenKitty]

FilmSnob wrote:I'm gonna do you a favor:

Materialism=The study of observable reality.

They why use the word materialism. It is a word with a metaphysical element. Observe has a tendency to elicit the idea of visual recognition. There is much of reality that we cannot observe. I think detect, is a better verb. Or verify.

But for some reason there is this huge reluctance to let go of physical and material as descriptive terms for everything despite their obvious inadequacy.

I do not quite agree with you on use "detect" or "verify". All of these things come back to visual recognition. They always come back to human sensory system. Your last sentence I agree with.