Materialism.

[Chester]

I wonder if anyone on this site can give a really good, simple, defense of the materialism theory? I may not respond but i'd be really interested in your responses (if there are any).For instance, how do you know that is isn't a dreamlike experience?


Cheers.

[FilmSnob]

A greek philospher once set out, much like you, to disprove the materialist theory of existance.

He stood in front of a bull and told his student that he was safe, the bull wasn't really there.

The bull trampled him and he died a horrible, agonizing death.

[Chester]

I don't need to believe in materialism in order to believe in reality.

[von Rivers]

Snap. Was that in Batislavia?

Anyways, let's talk about "physicalism" (the same thing as materialism, just updated). Try to stay with me on this one...

What is 'physical'? Just what obeys the laws of physics.
What are the laws of physics? Just the laws of the universe.
What is the universe? Well, 'universe' is synonymous with 'everything'.
Therefore, everything is physical.

That's by definition, son.

[phyllo]

I don't need to believe in materialism in order to believe in reality.

Materialism is reality.

[Amorphos]

Materialism is reality.

really? So define reality as an object?

Hmm actually this isn’t a debate about that, so perhaps just try to say what materialism is known to be and can be ~ rather than just say its everything when that’s implausible.

Fundamentally I’d say materialism is the result of law and info upon the fabric of reality. Or that there is no such fabric, but a fabric is formed under certain conditions!
The base of reality seems ever more mysterious to me, its as if it can be anything in reality yet is none of those things.
Cardinality creates aggregate = edges, and energy is defined by that [limits] becoming forces. when forces form into patterns and shapes you get matter [particles].

Science mostly just stick labels on things, momentum is a force of energy [or a ‘dimension’ apparently] but we don’t know what energy ‘is’ or what forces are, or by what they are manifest, we only know how they appear in the world.

[phyllo]

Everything you have ever experienced as real, has been matter and energy.

[Chester]

Snap. Was that in Batislavia?

Anyways, let's talk about "physicalism" (the same thing as materialism, just updated). Try to stay with me on this one...

What is 'physical'? Just what obeys the laws of physics.
What are the laws of physics? Just the laws of the universe.
What is the universe? Well, 'universe' is synonymous with 'everything'.
Therefore, everything is physical.

That's by definition, son.

Ok Mo, why is this not a dream with laws ? Why does this have to be a reality based on mind independence?

[Chester]

I don't need to believe in materialism in order to believe in reality.

Materialism is reality.

Laws pertaining to experience is reality.

[Chester]

Everything you have ever experienced as real, has been matter and energy.

Everything you have ever experienced as real has obeyed the laws of reality.

[Chester]

Materialism is reality.

really? So define reality as an object?

Hmm actually this isn’t a debate about that, so perhaps just try to say what materialism is known to be and can be ~ rather than just say its everything when that’s implausible.

Fundamentally I’d say materialism is the result of law and info upon the fabric of reality. Or that there is no such fabric, but a fabric is formed under certain conditions!
The base of reality seems ever more mysterious to me, its as if it can be anything in reality yet is none of those things.
Cardinality creates aggregate = edges, and energy is defined by that [limits] becoming forces. when forces form into patterns and shapes you get matter [particles].

Science mostly just stick labels on things, momentum is a force of energy [or a ‘dimension’ apparently] but we don’t know what energy ‘is’ or what forces are, or by what they are manifest, we only know how they appear in the world.

Nice one quet.

[FilmSnob]

I'm gonna do you a favor:

Materialism=The study of observable reality.

[Chester]

I'm gonna do you a favor:

Materialism=The study of observable reality.

I'll do you a favour mate:

Materialism=an assumption about the nature of reality.

[FilmSnob]

Yeah, an assumption that you yourself have been making all throughout this thread.

I'll give you a clue: if you also believe the bull that mauled that philosopher (this was actual Greece btw, I just can't remember the guy's name) was real, you are making materialist assumptions about reality.

[phyllo]

Laws pertaining to experience is reality.

Laws are an abstraction which humans overlay on top of reality. In reality, there are no laws.

[Chester]

Yeah, an assumption that you yourself have been making all throughout this thread.

I'll give you a clue: if you also believe the bull that mauled that philosopher (this was actual Greece btw, I just can't remember the guy's name) was real, you are making materialist assumptions about reality.

I believe in external reality because am not a solipsist, not because I am a materialist.

[Chester]

Laws pertaining to experience is reality.

Laws are an abstraction which humans overlay on top of reality. In reality, there are no laws.

If there are no laws there is no science. I believe in science's ability to widen our choices and thus (potentially) improve our lives, therefore I believe in natural laws.

[FilmSnob]

The bull is a material reality. Everything is a material reality. "I am not a solipcist" is no argument.

[phyllo]

Science is a description of reality. It's a record of experiences - all of which have been material experiences. Science does not describe anything which is not matter or energy.

[Chester]

The bull is a material reality. Everything is a material reality. "I am not a solipcist" is no argument.

This is how I'd put it...

The bull is a reality.Everything is a reality."I am not a solipsist" is the best way of describing an idealist who believes in a reality beyond himself.

[Chester]

Science is a description of reality. It's a record of experiences - all of which have been material experiences. Science does not describe anything which is not matter or energy.

I agree with your first sentence, everything after that is an assumption.

[Amorphos]

Everything you have ever experienced as real, has been matter and energy.

As far as I know I have only ever experienced subjective information.

The experiencer and info are not physical.

I'm gonna do you a favor:
Materialism=The study of observable reality.

Colour is observable yet nonmaterial.

[von Rivers]

Ok Mo, why is this not a dream with laws ? Why does this have to be a reality based on mind independence?

What? What do you mean "a dream with laws"? Are you doing some sort of Cartesian thing... wondering about Evil Demons? If you are, touche. Just don't take it outside with you, you'll get hit by a car or beaten up by an old lady. If consequences matter at all to you, I suggest you go with the theory that best explains them.

[Chester]

Ok Mo, why is this not a dream with laws ? Why does this have to be a reality based on mind independence?

What? What do you mean "a dream with laws"? Are you doing some sort of Cartesian thing... wondering about Evil Demons? If you are, touche. Just don't take it outside with you, you'll get hit by a car or beaten up by an old lady. If consequences matter at all to you, I suggest you go with the theory that best explains them.

How exactly does materialism best explain reality? Come on mate, all I know is that there is a reality, why should I assume it is a material reality?

[von Rivers]

How exactly does materialism best explain reality? Come on mate, all I know is that there is a reality, why should I assume it is a material reality?

So let's just be clear: Are you now dropping the Cartesian "what if it's just a dream" schtick? Physicalism seems to be underlying the only way to explain reality, at all. Dancing around a bonfire yelling "ayayayayayaya" and doing blood sacrifices just hasn't worked for me. I take my vitamins, I work on the computer, I drive the car... and I thank someone who doesn't have time for Magic 8 balls for inventing these things for me.