Repression and Coercion - For and Against

I’m fine with that. Did we have anyone but UPF consent to judging this (cough) debate?

Hey Mods! Can someone sort out the judging and get this show on the road?

UPF, the honorium check is in the mail. Trust me. :^o :laughing:

Two more Judges?

I’ll be one, I haven’t really read any of it yet, so I’ll be neutral.

Okay, UPF, Pav, and who…?

We could do with a lady to balance stuff out. How about Blurred…? Anita has already pulled a wobbley and bailed on us, Arc’s a wee-bit too romantically inclined - no offence - for my taste and I can’t think of anyone else. At a push the man with a line for his name and Pezer owe us a judgement, if they fancy it.

So i just issue my own judgment right? i don’t collaborate with the other judges, do i?

i’ll need a couple days to go through the whole thing again, before i post my expert opinion.

and Tent, when you make out that check you should include a gratuity, as i’ll be working over the holiday weekend.

UPF and Pav,

Could you come up with a third judge? Tab and I have established “reputations” that seem to make people wary of dealing with either of us. :laughing:

UPF, so you get to work this weekend? Who did you piss off to get that fucking deal? Anyway, Cookies and a carton of milk on it’s way…

I could get you a camel no problem. For real. :-$

Go for it, UPF. A camel would be a cool chick magnet. I mean, what a pick up line! “Hi beautiful. Wanna ride home on my camel?” What girl could resist that? :laughing:

Oh, it’s a good deal if Tab picks up the Fed Ex freight charges, the costs of the mandantory quarantine period, and the vet bill for appropriate vaccinations. I’m sure he’d be happy to oblige.

i work every weekend - gotta keep food in my belly and shoes on me feets. but i meant i’d be working on my judgment over the weekend, which i think warrants at least a batch of pot brownies and a carton of chocolate milk, as well as at least 20% of whatever money you have in the bank. And a camel.

It’s on its way - she’s called Delores, two-hump fighting dromedary. Eats dried moss and kicks like a couple of mules all cellotaped together.

We’ll come up with a third Judge who has not read the Debate if UPF and myself don’t make it unanimous. I’ll not read his judgment nor he mine.

This will be my judgment: Pav, read no further until you’ve posted your own . . .

. . .

i feel as though the debate was a draw, here’s why:

The topic itself raises two seperate questions:

First, do repression and coercion work for providing social stability? (Tab’s primary focus)

and

Second, ought repression and coercion be used in the first place? (this would be the “for and against” question - Tent’s primary focus)

  • So, right off the bat, we have our two participants in the debate focusing on seperate issues, and in the ensuing confusion little (beyond what we already knew going in) is actually resolved.

Tab argues that repression and coercion work to provide the aforementioned social stabilty, at least for finite, though sometimes quite extended, stretches of time. Here, he seems to have the good fortune of arguing for the self-evident in that regard. Though he does so with his usual verve and wit (and cool little visuals), there is no escaping the fact that he is simply pointing out the obvious. Even Tent agrees with the basic point here. Now, Tab, as we all know, is a wiley enough debater not to stop there. He goes on to make the very interesting assertion that periods of repression are actually beneficial for societies in transition because they weed out the dross from the pool of potential up and coming leaders,

  • Quite a fascinating proposal, but, here, he does not have the advantage of arguing what is already readily apparent, and, imo, fails to persuasively demonstrate his theory beyond simply stating how it might work if it were true, leaving the impression that it’s just a cool, clever idea he thought up over a bowl of wheatabix and camel-milk one morning, rather than something he actually knows to be the case. As for coercion, he again points out the obvious (as he very well should) when he talks of the need for recognized, legitimate enforcement of social rules and the essential role it plays in society as we have come to understand it, but does not make the case for the more extreme forms of coercion (brutality and systemic killings, say), or how those might be any more likely to stabilize, rather than destabilize, a given society.

Tent, for his part, acknowledges that both repression and coercion as described by Tab can work, for finite periods of time - but rightfully points to the perennial, social crash-and-burn that we see occuring throughout the history of highly repressive regimes, and so posits that it is time for an alternative approach. Reasonable enough, but he fails to really make the case, or to demonstrate the ways in which such boom-bust cycles might be maladaptive. Instead, he talks in vague terms of “restraint”, saying:

He fails, however, to demonstrate this, even admitting that the idea (as appealing as such a paradigm-shift might seem for many of us) finds little creedence historically. So, ultimately, he’s just doing what Tab did: making stuff up to suit his position. It’s good stuff, granted, but he doesn’t really develop it enough to be fully persuasive.

So, in the end, we basically have Tab and Tent kind of talking past one another: Tab making an empirical argument while Tent makes a moral one - and, alas, IMO, neither actually makes a fully developed case FOR or AGAINST repression and coercion.

Yea. Damn. It was just a cool idea I pulled out of my ass. Thinking back I should have used India and Ghandi’s eventual arisal to illustrate a historical precedent. But, being a lazy scuzz, I didn’t bother. Gosh-darnarize it.

Thanks for the “You both equally lose” verdict. :laughing:

I think Tab has it right. We both just “pulled whatever out of our ass” and tried to run a bluff. You caught both of us and we deserve the hall of shame award for not trying. I was in forensics for almost eight years. It isn’t like I don’t know a debate when I see one, and neither of us really debated the subject. I really didn’t have much choice but to “change the subject” because Tab had too much on his side to counter, but I did my usual half-assed job and you were more than kind to call it a draw.

Hopefully, the camel will be just compensation for your efforts. :wink:

Ooh no, the camel got cancelled. Delores has been put out to stud. Or whatever the equivalent practice is for sexy girl-camels.

Hey Pav! Can we get this over with before it drags into the New Year? there are some things better left in the dust…

Tomorrow. I promise.

It appears that both Tab and Tentative have acknowledged that the Debate has resulted in something less than strictly formal, based upon that, I will Judge this Debate strictly on the merits of the arguments.


It seems that, based upon the definitions provided by Tab in his first post, Repression and Coercion are generally used to accomplish the same ends.

Tab begins the actual argumentation process by stating that repression, while not originally expressly intended, must be good for something. Tab makes sure to make the distinction that repression is not necessarily good, in and of itself, but that it accomplishes a specific purpose.

Tab points out that both repressive and supportive Governments use essentially the same tools to accomplish whatever the desired ends happen to be at the time.

Tab argues that repression, at a minimum, provides predictability and stability.

Tab doesn’t necessarily mention superior organization, in so many words, but basically states that if a new Government rises up from among the repressed to take over, the new Government has basically proved it has the ability to sustain for a long-enough period of time that the system of merely having, “A Government,” does not get thrown into utter chaos.

Tab points out that those who were previously repressed must liberate themselves from the repression, or they will simply be repressed anew by those who helped liberate them. Tab gives relevant and recent examples.

Tab reiterates his opening concerning the usefulness of repression.


Tentative immediately points out that far more Governments have failed than succeeded which would indicate that repression and coercion do not work. Tentative acknowledges, at the same time, that repression and coercion are the ultimate results of most Governments.

Tentative states that he will provide examples of a better Governmental alternative(s) later.

Tentative points out that repressive/coercive Governments will not sustain forever, but are generally successful in the short run. Tentative states that the more people are repressed, the more they will resent the repressive Government and that this exists worldwide.


Tab questions whether Tentative is really referring to a, “Short-run,” in his examples.

Tab points out that the Romans were coercive, according to some, but they had barbarian tribes who wanted to join the Roman Empire. It cannot be coerced if it is voluntary.

Note, maybe that means that Tab’s numbers concerning the length of time the Roman Empire was in power do not counter Tentative’s point because Tab seems to acknowledge that the Roman Empire was not coercive the entire time.

Tab points out that there can exist coercion that is actually supported by the masses via the legitimacy of the authoritative body…all of which is based upon public opinion.

Would that not mean that the masses were not, “Coerced,” but accept the authority voluntarily?

Tab points out that legitimate coercive force exists for the public good in maintaining order and predictability, but, the citizenry may draw lines in the sand concerning the degree to which coercive force may be employed.

Tab reiterates his points in his concluding paragraph.


Tentative states that history shows a progression of failures.

Tentative states that we must first accept coercion and repression as failures. Tentative poses a question, knowing the answer, which is basically that the world is not in a continuous state of unbreaking stability.

Tentative states that restraint, which is a concept used to determine what is best for all parties involved, is the ultimate answer to achieving social stability.

Tentative states that only generations conditioned to practice restraint and to put what is best for all above anything else will result in restraint being Universally practiced.

How will these generations do this when they live under a cloud of repression and coercion? Is Tentative proposing a solution that can never be realized simply because the solution is first required to be completed before it can even begin?


Tab points out that we do not all practice restraint.

Tab concedes that Tentative’s solution would work if we did all practice restraint, but then also asks how we could effectuate Universal restraint without the use of repression and coercion.

Tab points out that, in a society where all practice restraint, the first individual or group to not practice restraint seizes the power and will, presumably, maintain that power with coercion and repression.

Tab drew a pretty cool graph, which he uses to illustrate points previously made.

Tab concludes by stating that the most restrained society is also the most repressed.


Ouch! Tentative uses Tab’s graph against him by demonstrating that, despite Tab’s claim of stability, there is a seemingly unending cycle of crashes and burns.

Tentative then back-pedals, in a way, and concedes that repression and coercion will always exist in some form, (citing child-rearing) but simply that it does not have to be the most dominant mode of stability.

Tentative states that if restraint is taught long enough, genuine social stability finally takes hold.


[size=150]JUDGMENT[/size]

I only have one comment outside of the actual judgment, so I’ll make that now:

I agree with Tentative that practicing restraint to the greatest degree possible would result in a society that could be the most stable for the longest period of time. However, to get people to exhibit that sort of restraint, I believe, would involve generations of the most intense form of physical-punishment conditioning possible…and maybe even some emotional/psychological punishment.

You would basically have to replace even the most innocuous amount of pride with absolute humility and submission to the collective. Absolutely any sign of putting yourself above the collective, in any way whatsoever, would have to be met with intense physical punishment and psychological breakdown. People would have to be convinced to believe, without any question or doubt whatsoever, that they are inherently worthless and exist only for the betterment of other people.

Once this task has been deemed accomplished, those who effectuated this great feeling of mass humility would have to kill themselves immediately, otherwise, they would be destined to continue the repression/coercion by which they got the masses to believe this way in the first place. Ironically, to resist taking absolute God-Like control over a populace that has been conditioned to be controlled would be the single greatest act of restraint ever.

You would have stability, but life would be meaningless. Without any pride whatsoever, an individual cannot take pleasure in even the most altruistic of acts. He can never look at himself as having done something, “Good for others,” or, “Good for society,” but rather, would be condemned to look at himself as doing what was necessary.

You would have stability, however…


Tab-1st Post:

The closest Tab comes to a self-contradiction is when he discusses Governmental stability and then gets into a discussion about what happens when a new Government overthrows the old one. It’s so painfully obvious, however, that Tentative would have made that point on his own (as he so rapidly jumped on it) that I can’t really hold that one against Tab.

It’s basically just a technical thing. Technically, I would wait for my opponent to bring up anything that could potentially serve as a counter-argument to my thesis.

Tentative-1st Post

Tentative does well to assert that repression and coercion are an ends, not a means, and that most Governments using either/both have failed.

Tentative does well to point out that it is the very repression and coercion that causes revolt.

***However, I believe that Tentative would have put himself in a better position in this Debate had he just went ahead and outlined his entire Governmental approach in his opening. He hinted at it, but the only thing of substance in his post was rebuttal, which gave Tab the opportunity to counter-argue the rebuttal in his 2nd Post, while Tentative did not even really get into his thesis until his own second post which was the fourth post in the Debate.

Tentative sure as Hell had room to do it, too. His opening post was extremely short.

Tab-2nd Post

Tab seems to ignore that not all of the citizenry is actually being coerced if they voluntarily and unquestionably accept the authority. You really don’t have to quell the uprising of the masses when the masses are too busy bowing before you…of their own volition.

Basically, Tab states that there is a point where the public goes all Twisted Sister with, “We’re not gonna take it anymore,” but that does nothing to obfuscate the fact that, in order to be repressed/coerced, you would actually have to be doing something that the Governing body does not want you to do. Otherwise, you simply agree with the ruling body. You think that the ruling body is right in most, if not all, situations.

You have restrained yourself.

***I think that Tentative should have capitalized more on the above, but it seems that he was too busy posting his actual thesis to address this very easy hole in Tab’s counter-argument to Tentative’s rebuttal.

No offense, Tentative.

Tentative-2nd Post

Tentative reiterates that we are not continuously stable. He states that we must accept repression/coercion as failures which is basically the same thing as us to accept his premise before he has actually supported his premise…and actually…before he has made his thesis.

Tentative then states that restraint is the best means by which social stability will be obtained/maintained. I would also give Tentative points for waiting for Tab to mention that restraint will only be conditioned via repression/coercion.

Tentative does, however, fail to realize that the actual societal system in place when this restraint is to be Universally instilled is one of repression/coercion. How does that happen?

Tab-3rd Post

Tab jumps on the point that repression/coercion will be necessary to instill restraint, and asks how we could instill restraint without repression and coercion.

Tab also points out that restraint must fail, because the first to escape a paradigm of restraint will rule, presumably via repression/coercion. Tab points out that the most restrained society is the most repressed.

Tentative-3rd Post

I really like how Tentative used Tab’s graph to further his own point…a lot…

I really wish that Tentative would have really put his mind into going into a greater effort to minimalize the effects of repression/coercion, because I believe that he could have come up with something if he really wanted to. He basically says that it will always exist, but doesn’t have to dominate. I don’t think that’s really going far enough. He can concede that it will always exist, and that’s fine, but he has to find a way to [size=85]minimize[/size] it, to make it nothing more than a blip on the radar of Governance.

Tentative does conclude by essentially stating that, the more restraint prevails, the less fluctuation (and more stability) there will be.

________________________

Fuck.

I’m scoring the first round: 9-8, Tab

-MAIN REASON: The first post is for the presentation of a thesis and Tentative did not do that. Tab does not get the full ten points due to self-contradiction, however harmless.

I’m scoring the second round: 7-8, Tentative

-MAIN REASON: I have objections to both posts. (See above) I mean you no offense, Tab, but in this post, you made the most obvious mistake I have ever seen you make in a Debate, (You really could have saved it for a future Debate with me, you know… :wink: ) but you basically try to say that those who already accept the authority in place are repressed/coerced. They are not. They don’t have to be. They accept the authority. Repression/Coercion is what you do to citizens that do not accept your authority.

I’m scoring the final round: 10-9, Tab

-MAIN REASON: Both of them do a great job in their final posts, but Tab points out that the repression/coercion will, at some point, be necessary to make the conditioning of restraint work, and Tentative does not do enough to minimize the perceived necessity of repression/coercion. Tentative does an absolutely fantastic job of using Tab’s own graph (!) to highlight the fact that more restraint leads to more stability, but, if it takes repression/coercion to generate restraint, wouldn’t that simultaneously be more repression/coercion leading to more stability? In fact, wouldn’t that mean that (despite the error of Tab’s second post) you would just cause there to be more citizenry that merely accepts the authority of the Government as nothing is worse than bloodshed and uprising causes bloodshed? Looking out for the good of all, first and foremost, as it were.

FINAL SCORE: 26-25, TAB

This has been an excellent Debate by both of you guys. I have judged a shitload of these things at this point, and this has been my favorite one to judge so far.

Congrats, Tab! And thanks to both judges for taking the time to judge this… sort-of-a-debate.

Cheers Pav, you’re a gent and a scholar - and Happy New year btw. =D>

I’m amazed no-one caught this. :laughing:

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

I’m sorry, Tab, I didn’t read the actual definitions, I already knew what the word meant!

Happy New Year to both of you, excellent Debate.