Black People Mentally Lower

First of course, Mr. Watson is a chemist and expert in DNA, what does this have to do with the topic?

Nothing. I strongly doubt if he has more qualifications to comment on this matter than I do.

Here are the words that kicked off the controversy:

“The 79-year-old geneticist said he was “inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa” because “all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the testing says not really.”

Hmm? So, since much of our civilization is derived from Eygpt, and Ancient Eygpt was a Black Kingdom, did they have a problem with government?

For the sake of argument, let us concede that there are differences in intelligence between that artificial construct known as “races.” For that matter, aren’t there those who hold that woman are less intelligent than men?

But let us concede both points for the sake of argument. Let us say that Blacks and Woman average four or five IQ points below European Whites. What does that mean when one realises that the differences between individuals in ONE race are far, far greater than the alledged differences between races as groups?

When a racist looks to hire someone for the position of garbage collector, if a Black Einstein walked in for the job, he would be turned down.

None of us are “equals.” There are people far more intelligent than I, and people far dumber than I. What a just society requires is equal opportunity for everyone to find their own level.

If there ARE differences between people or sexes, that is totally irrelevant to the point.

And of course, as I’ve pointed out, Mr. Watson, who apparentely knows nothing of history, has put his foot deeply down his throat and is being justifiably castigated for his stupid remarks.

Dave

Even if blacks were proven to be intellectually inferior, the margin would be so infinitessimally low as to be insignificant. There are many geniuses of African descent, and would be more were environmental conditions equal.

Really?
Which ones?

Why are there no sub-Saharan great civilizations?
Where are the ground breaking great black philosophers or female philosophers?

Does challenge and adversity create progress or does comfort equality create it?

Does environment, in the final analysis, actually affect organisms mentally or is nature only influential as a cosmetic factor?

And for those that like to reap over and over again how the differences, even if true, are too small to count I mention the Butterfly Effect.

Infinitesimal divergence is what makes the difference between life and death in natural selection.

Finally, how does censorship work in our modern, sophisticated world?

Why, for example, does the free-press tow the line and is it really all that free?
What about institutional collusion?

Do you live in a democracy?

For those interested, the poster i quoted below has some stuff to say on the matter, heres link to the forums thread titled:
“Are Whites Devils or Just Smarter”.
http://p076.ezboard.com/fpoliticalpalacefrm1.showMessageRange?topicID=12650.topic&start=21&stop=30

You provide this as evidence of a civilization?
Where’s the philosophy, the art, the sciences?

Egyptians were not Negroes, by the way, no more than dark skinned Indians are.
Skin coloration is but an aspect of racial characteristics.

Guns Germs and Steel explains the environmental conditions that were taken advantage of but does not explain the developmental course necessary to take advantage of them or how taking advantage of them may have affected these isolated groups.

Human groups are pressured out of their primordial environments in Africa.
Their weakness is forced to adapt to inhospitable environments or less ideal ones, for them.

Genetic isolation begins as groups are occupying pockets of environments they can survive in, leaving large gaps of unoccupied territories.

Some, if not most, perish. But then they figure out a way to take advantage of certain elements in their environment.
Those that do survive and flourish.

Isn’t this an intelligence leap?

That certain animals existed within an area and that they could be domesticated is the luck of the draw, but that they were didn’t happen automatically nor did these animals willingly volunteer their services nor did these plants willingly volunteer their crops.
There had to be an ingenuity leap, caused by the pressures to survive.

Diamond begins his narration when these environmental factors were harvested but does not explain the time in between these migrations occurred and the time agriculture began.

Humans migrated out of Africa long before any first civilization began or agriculture emerged.
It is during this time that genetic isolation must have diversified the human species into the subgroupings we know today.

Granted the differences are slight but over time they had a profound effect, didn’t they?
We may even say that the differences between the homo sapient and other primates isn’t that great either. But it is large enough to cause a profound difference.
and the differences between the Homo Sapient and the Neanderthal must have been even less.

I would suspect that all species diversity happened along these lines.
Sub-groupings are pushed out of ideal environments. These weaker, defeated ones are forced into less hospitable environments.
Most die off but one or two manage to survive due to a mutation, a unique characteristic which offers an advantage.
Adversity forces growth.
Which makes the excuses offered concerning adversity as a limiting factor all the more absurd and childish.

The do or die method is one nature uses continuously.
The challenges result in evolutionary changes. Comfort results in evolutionary stagnation. See the crocodile. It didn’t have to change and so it didn’t.

If anything racism and sexism should have produced growth.

But I digress.

This characteristic, which offered an advantage, is then propagated. The weak are now adapting to take advantage of the circumstances in their new environment. Those that cannot die off. those that can adapt and flourish.
They change further, as genetic isolation and in-breeding splinters the group from its ancestor, who having never left its ideal environment, didn’t have to change much.

Given enough time a new species emerges which is completely different than the original. Less time and a breed or a sub-category emerges which can still breed with the original group because the splintering wasn’t given enough time to cause a complete separation.

While it’s true that Yul Brenner in the Ten Commandments doesn’t appear Black, Eygpt was a Black Civilisation. So what does Sub-Sahara have to do with the question? But let us concede the point.

Timbuktoo was one of the Great Intellectual Centers in the Middle Ages. Is that Sub-Saharan enough for you?

Ahh, but your sceptical. Gosh, probably as sceptical as those Europeans of the Colonial age who wrote book after book wondering where the “White People” were who built the cities of Zimbabwe.

Gosh will wonders never ceace…

(snip)

How many Japanese, Chinese, Indian, genius, can you name? I suspect very few. And that’s because both you and I are Euro-centric. We know of our heros and know of few other. Was George Washington Carver a genius?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_Carver

How about W.E.B. DuBois?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._E._B._Du_Bois

How about the author of the Three Musketeers?

Frederick Douglass?

In the Ancient world, people like the Greeks regarded themselves as special. But this distinction was not based on our moden conception of race. In the later Hellinistic era, Black, Brown and White people mixed together in the first example of Multi-Culturalism, and whether you were Black or White had little to do with this.

Being “Black” or being “White” is in fact a modern affectation.

You really should read that marvelous tour guide of the ancient world written by Herododus. In 59 pages describing Eygpt he only causally mentions that they are Black. It meant NOTHING to him.

Dave

What a easy out. Yes, Indians are “caucasian,” but sorry, no Eygyptians were indeed Negroes. In the Colonial era when it was important to explain their civilisation away, they invented the term Hamitic to describe them - Sorry no, their “Negroes.”

But the plain fact of the matter is that all of this amounts to Splitting hairs in order to justify the moderrn invention of racism. Racism in its present form is only three or four hundred years old. It was invented to justify the exploitation and genocide of other people.

It’s worked well, and it’s about time to give it up…

africawithin.com/diop/origin_egyptians.htm

Dave

Dave

Your inablity to understand your own motives should be embarassing. You could start with your avatar and screen name and then try a little introspection around racism. If you can’t know yourself, you certainly have nothing to teach us about things you are even further away from.

Realy it doesnt need to go any further than this argument. The colour of your skin holds no direct link to intelegence, case closed

Quite a few actually.
Sorry if you can’t.

I never knew Indian and Chinese and Japanese philosophers were so obscure in New York.

That’s right, Negro philosophers are just unknown.
Very good.
They’re our best kept secret.

Let me guess, was their genius restricted to race relations and equality?

What did he say which was groundbreaking or genius?
Just mentioning his name is not an argument.

Dear fellow, you’re like a guy mentioning a few exceptions, if they are that at all, to disprove a point when you actually prove it.

An albino black-bear doesn’t disprove the black bear type no more than a midget disproves the average human height.

That’s what you call a genius? Writing a novel makes you a genius?
Well, I guess it’s a matter of one’s own level. To a short person an average height seems tall.

Did he revolutionize human thought?
Please explain his genius.

I wasn’t aware the Greeks distinguished themselves according to race.
Thanks for teaching us.

Wow. That’s a lesson I will not soon forget. Thank you.
What this has to do with what I said, I don’t know…but it sounds smart so it must be something deep.

Fascinating.
Did we invent it like we invented gender?

Did we also invent species?

I’m sure being black constitutes being a Negro, like being pale constitutes being Asian.

I don’t know what you just proved, other than the fact that these black intellectuals can be counted using the fingers on one hand - does having six fingers on one hand disprove the five-fingered theory? -and even they were a product of white environments.
All the guys you mentioned were Negroes in north America. Ex slaves.
Let me see, here’s another factor: Was there race mixing during that time?

Where are these Negro philosophers or Negro civilizations from the sub-Sahara, dear fellow?
Did you read the post?
I’ll help you out: Zulu. And we all know what gifts they gave humanity.

Perhaps your examples better clarified the division between races in regards to the intellect. Your examples do not even compare with an average intellectual in the east or west.

You’re like a feminist who presents a few female examples of exceptional minds and they are mostly thinkers about gender issues and bit players in greater games.
Name one female thinker that revolutionized human thought.
Ayn Rand?
Come on!!!

I think what you best illustrated is how you’ve connected skin pigmentation with race, when it is only a part of it.
And yes Egyptians were dark skinned, even if the elite were more light, but they were not Negroes.
Maybe some Negroes mixed with the Egyptians due to their proximity to the Nile but the Negro race is not synonymous with Africa, no more than all Asians are called orientals.

How do you propose species diverge from genetic family trees? I sit magical?
How does a wolf diverge from a fox or a wild-dog?
How does an African elephant separate from an Asian one and how does a lama disconnect from a camel?
Did God do it?

It is I feel shame. :blush:
Maybe your motives should be more closely examined.

My motives are to cut through the cultural bullshit that permeates our western romantic delusions.
It’s unfortunate that there are differences between species and groups and individuals. Yet, to pretend that there are none is truly foolish and motivated by soemthing more base.

Oh my…am I the destroyer of worlds?

No, just the destroyer of innocence.
Time to grow up, little one.
The world isn’t the nice, happy place your mommy told you it is.

Nothing to teach the blind about colors and shapes and the world of light.
Maybe you should return to your Hollywood world and stop reading adult material.

I’ll tell your mommy if you don’t. .

I made an error by naming people. You name Japanese and Indian geniuese and I will match you one for one.

(snip)

I’m sure you too have thousands of inventions to your name. No doubt as you have pointed out before, you are a genius. You simply have no proof to offer - To bad. Who knew?

As I said above, I made a mistake in posting individual names. And as I said I will be happy to post names one for one.

(snip)

Once again my apologies. I haven’t read the many classic novels that you’ve written. I’m sure that you could write a classic in a few days. Please let us know where it’s avaiblable.

He was proably one of the most influential men to bring on the Civil War which forever altered American Society. Odd that someone born a slave could do this. I’m sure you could do this as well. Learn to read and write, where learning was illegal. Become a writer, speaked, lecturer and philosopher, without even raising a sweat.

Sorry, for a genius you are slow at reading comprehension.

Racism is a modern invention. Species is very old, as is sexism.

I will be happy to answer any other question, of which there appear to be many, that you are unaware of - Such as the fact that Ancient Eyptians were Negro, and the Greeks were happy to admit their intellectual debt to them. But then again, no doubt you can site the movie, the ten commandments to prove me wrong.

May I suggest you simply take a GOOD LOOK at all those wall paintings the Egyptians made? The sculptures? You know, the ones that aren’t from the movies? The ones where by golly, they don’t look like Indians at all?
emuseum.gov.eg/erapaging.asp?which=old

Gosh, more reading comprehension problems? And from a genius no less! Shocking. Perhaps you missed my last post where I said Indians were Caucasions? I guess you did.

Now here I thought I mentioned Zimbabwe and Timbuctoo. But then again they don’t count because you as a genius never heard of them and never read my post. And you’re happy to assume that Eygptians were Caucasian even though they weren’t.

Obviously those who lectured at the world famous universities of Africa don’t count either.

How can I compete with a genius like yourself? After all if I give you examples of civilisations, you either don’t read them or define them out of existence.

Your logic amounts to, “There were no Black civilsations, therefore if a civilisation exited it wsn’t Black!”

How stunning! How logical! What can I expect from a genius but this kind of breath taking logic!

This really has to be the most stupid statement that I have ever read in my life. I mean that. I wont dignify such stupidity with an answer. Ignorance about the orgins of human hostory can be excused as just being ignorance, but to deny that there were any woman of genius is self willed stupidity.

This is absolute nonsense, where trapped by your own rhetoric you simply deny what all anthropogists have documented. Indeed, clearly you didn’t read the link I provided you with. No doubt as a self proclaimed genius you can claim that all this work is simply “politically motivated.”

I am touched.

Species is recognised by DNA. There is no difference in the DNA of me and and some guy in South Africa. Just ask Bishop Tutu, another genius who doesn’t exist. Perhaps you should also talk to Nelson Mandella.

Dave

Quantity over quality, huh?

What a bitch you are.

How about this.
I’ll name one thinker , eastern and western, that revolutionized human thought and expanded human perception and then you name one Negro one.

I’ll start with the older ones first and the newer ones later.

Confucius
Heraclitus

Please don’t make a fool of yourself.
I hope your search engine is a good one.
We’ll all have to read up just to determine what your “thinkers” actually contributed.
It’ll be fun.

I said this or did you feel stupid in relation to me?

Like all minds on your level you are trying to make this personal.

Please explain how this is about me, or you.

I’m sure he was a very strong and remarkable man.
Please explain how he was a genius.
What is genius?

Like I said, please find a Negro intelelctual that has produced any thought not having to do with race matters, or any woman thinker having nothing to do with gender issues.
Something universal.
And then let us compare.

Shall we find Jewish thinkers that only produced Zionist thoughts or Greeks only thinking about Hellenic matters?

Who said I’m a genius?
What I am is for others to decide.

I never declared myself anything. It’s always others that accuse me of having self-flattering positions.

Maybe it’s because their opinions are self-serving and so they assume everyone else’s is as well.

Really?
Are you saying individuals didn’t disrcriminate using sensual stimuli until our modern times?

Egyptians were Negroes?

Is it because their skin was dark?
Please present the evidence.

And?
The sculptures show what, dear fellow?
Did the sculptures look like sub-Saharan Negroids to you?

Oh I think genius will soon be uncovered.
Nice save, by the way. It’s typical of your kind to imply one thing and then pretend they never did when their error is made clear.

I ask, is skin pigmentation the only characteristic of racial difference or environmental effects?

I said Egyptians were Caucasians?
Where?
Present the quote.

Oh, you have no idea what I’m aware of, dear, dear fellow.
How long did it take you to google those examples?

Okay, let us play some more…mention what these civilizations produced; ideas or inventions that changed the course of human history or expanded human awareness.

Sharpening spears and building mud huts doesn’t count as ‘genius’, my dear, dear fellow.

Oh my, now this is getting more humorous by the minute.

What is the difference between intelligence and knowledge?
Is academics a sign of genius?
Are university Philosophy Professors philosophers?

This is going to be fun.

First off, I never claimed to be a genius. Maybe you think of me as one, but that’s none of my concern.
Secondly, are you saying the sub-Saharan tribal civilizations are at par with Rome or China or Greece or Mesopotamia or Egypt.

Now you are just panicking, dear fellow. relax, take a deep breath and tell me if the civilizations you mention are anything comparable to the Greeks or the romans or to China or to the Japanese ones.
Please do not neglect to mention the many contributions to humanity these sub-Saharan civilizatinos produced.

dear fellow, you are hyperventilating.
Chill.
I mean to display your intellectual fortitude so that your opinions are cast in the light that they deserve.
I’m here to help you.

Nice, arguments.
I’m pressured to respond to them and I wonder if there are any ad hominem matters here.
You present some very convincing logic, here.
I’ll have to think on it a while, before I respond.

And this is?
Are they the revealers of truth in our age? Are they your divine authorities?

Isn’t it?
What of this Nobel prize winner that claimed otherwise?

These people are geniuses or political activists?

Tell me what great thoughts they’ve produced.

I ask you, how are species created?

How do you imagine a family tree branches out. Describe the process, step by step.

Below is a list of From Michael H. Hart’s book The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History url=http://www.adherents.com/adh_influ.html//url[/url]. They are mostly white although there are Asians - about eleven or so I counted. This certainly demonstrates to me the authors lack of bias in compiling and researching the data and that he was not behaving in a Eurocentric manner.

Anyway, perhaps you could explain why there are no sub-Saharan blacks on the list? If you feel there have been important omissions then feel free to add them but please provide evidence regarding race in ambiguous cases (as in Egyptian civilization).

(Apologies for the cluttered appearance of the list due to page formatting)

Leander
You must forgive our friend. He’s suffering from an extreme case of cultural indoctrination and political-correct ignorance.

You see modern educational practices want to discourage any awareness of any racial or gender differences.
So they produce these mids of selctive minds.

It’s all part of the dumbing-down.

First of all, this business about “sub-Saharan blacks” is utter and complete nonsense. A glance at Egyptian art which I posted shows NOTHING but people with Negro features. Satyr, using his patented genuis logic, explains this away, by simply saying they couldn’t be Black, because they built one of the first civilsations, and the one most influential to Western development. How clever.

He then goes on to say, that (a close paraphrase “that maybe thee lower clases mixed with Negroes,” utterly ignoring the fact that almost universally these statues are of the Upper class.

Second, you post a list of the “most influential people in history.”

Does it inclued those who founded the Empires of Africa? Now Satyr will immediately think of the Zulu’s, but I am referring to…

Does your list include the founders of the Empire of of Soninke (1,000 AD) the center of which is now called Ghana? This included an area the size of Western Europe? One would think that such a creation would be included in this list. Too bad, for some reason you never heard of it.

How about the 13th century Empire of Mali? Gosh it doesn’t? Yet this Empire controlled millions of people. So is Sundjata the founder of this empire on your list?

Your list includes only well known people of Asian background, Confucious? Ghenghis Khan?

And you actually claim that this ISN’T a Euro-Centered list?

And how about Great Zimbabwe? Well to be fair, all we know about them are their ruins…
geocities.com/CollegePark/Cl … babwe.html

Of course thier civilsation encompassed an area the size of France.

And conspicuoulsy absent from your list is Nelson Mandella, who whatever else, is certainly on the most influential figures of history.

Christopher Columbus? Give me a break.

Dave

Addendum - Edited in.

Africa is the second largest continent in the World. For a;most 400 years it was ravaged by the slave trade, and it’s cultures and civilisations torn apart. This is NOT to say that everyone lived in a civilised society. Satyr is quiet right to name the Bantu speaking Zulu’s as a Barbaric people. But Africa in the 15th century was only a hundred years or so behind Europe.

The list you present, is, as I point out below a Euro-centric one. The number of Asians is rediculous and the number of Africans is simply ignored. So while large parts of Africa were indeed barbaric, there were BY DEFINITION plenty of influential men of history who made their mark there. Now I can laboriously type in from books that I own, but this link is at least a start in setting the record straight.

fsmitha.com/h3/h15-af.htm

[/quote]

Let me for once and for all put an end to this “MYTH” that Ancient Egyptians were Caucasians with dark skins. Satyr, who has a reading comprehension problem, ignores my agreement with him on the fact that Indians were caucasian in origin. And it a remarkable leap of faith, or a need to justify his racism then concludes that since Indians with dark skins are Caucasian, that is PROOF that Egyptians were caucasian. Golly, I wish I could use such logic - Things would be sooooo much simplet.

Here are links to portraits from the OLDEST recorded dynasty of Egypt, made long before the various invasions…

reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/portraiture/4d.htm

reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/portraiture/5d.htm

reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/portraiture/6d.htm

If these people are Caucasian I’ll eat my dog.

Dave

Are you now constructing straw man arguments to escape your own positions?

Where did I say Egyptians were Caucasians?
Were they Negroes?

Is that what I said?
My position is clear, I think.
Egyptians were not Negroes.
Anything else is your addition. You can’t escape now, my dear fellow, by redirection. I ask again:

Name one, just one, Negro philosopher and sub-Saharan civilization which offered something that revolutionized human thought and expanded human awareness.

Name one, just one, female philosopher or female civilization which contributed anything to human existence and expanded human awareness.

One.[size=150] One.[/size][size=200] One [/size]

Afterwards we can deal with your assertions that I said Egyptians were Caucasian.

Provide a quote where I said this.


Nice, you managed to google a few.

Now provide for us one advancement these civilizatinos provided to mankind.

One.[size=150] One.[/size][size=200] One [/size]

Spearchuckers living in mud huts does not a great civilization make.

But why do you avoid what you started?
You stated that you will provide one Negro genius for every genius I provide of Asian or Caucasian origin:

I start with Heraclitus and Confucius.
Now you provide us with two comparable minds.
Or, tell you what, one will do.

One. [size=150]One.[/size] [size=200]One. [/size]

You bet they were Negroes turkey, and I’ve posted the links to prove it.

Until you deal with THOSE links, I don’t need to answer your BULLSHIT questions, because you’ll just dodge and twist to get away from your own RACIST crap.

Deal with those pictures of NEGROES that I posted or STFU.

I’m sick and tired of your CONSTANT dodging of proof, your ignoring my posted links - You can’t have it both ways - You’ve been ignoring my arguments - You have the FUCKING NERVE to accuse ME of making strawmen when you repeat the same tired crap over and over. “Indians had dark skin and weren’t Negroes,” as if I didn’t agree with you from the beginning.

Dave

You are very slow. I ask for Negro philosophers and Negro civilizations and you provide links with pictures of sculptures?
Are modern Egyptians Negroes?
Do those pictures look like Negroes to you?

Who is dodging and twisting is apparent to all readers, my dear fellow.

Labeling those pictures Negroes does not make them so, dear fellow.

Relax, dear fellow.
The words necessary to describe you are prohibited by this forum and so I will play along with your silly little game.

You’ve obviously associated African American with Negro and so you misinterpret anything within the African continent as being Negroid, which is like saying that all Asians are oriental.

I see that in your desperation and sensing embarrassment you’ve clung to the one thing you can argue for based on how they look to you.
Egypt is within the African continent and so the people there are African. Therefore they are also Negroes, right?
I would ask for a single reference to them as Negroes but what’s the use, with you?

But let us play, just for the hell of it.

Let us say that you just provided a single Negro civilization.
There is one.

Now name one Negro philosopher, a descendant of this glorious ancient “Negro” civilization, that has revolutionized human thought and advanced human awareness. Someone who is a shining example of his heritage.

At this point, dear fellow, you should run into your feel-good, delusions.
You’ve just made a fool of yourself even if you do not know it.

Your anger tells me that you sense it.

Here, let me help you my dear, dear fellow.

And Here.

You see, dear fellow, even in this last one different race mixtures does not make this a Negro civilization.