Hmmm. Do you actually think that “All scholars agree” is justified by “Scholars may have been phantasizing on and around these last words, but they did it because these words were obviously an invention.” The answer is the same kind of nonsense that you posted before.
Yes, there are no doubt occasions of made up last words. There is no reason at all that this is “obviously” such a case, unless you want it obviously to be one. If you want to believe such a thing go ahead. But do not pretend that “all scholars” agree with you.
This is the kind of thing that happens when a bunch of people who agree with each other start telling each other how obvious their “truth” is.
Well said. Furthermore, it is quite likely that ‘Father, why has thou forsaken me’ were in fact the last words of Jesus, because the pain could well have broken through his reverie.
It is understandable if the later two gospels omitted these words because they were not to be understood from within the doctrine that had by that point developped.
It is quite likely that the earlier gospels have more historical value and the latter more interpretation in them.
Sawuelios, are you saying that they are ‘the same person’ in the ‘history may have got it wrong ’ way? in the ’ he had a double life’ way or in the ’ he was the reincarnation or twin soul of the former’ way…
I have called the idea that Jesus was Caesar one of my “convictions”. This does not mean I believe it is absolutely certain. It only means that I find it highly probable, considering the evidence (which is listed in the book). I have not based my judgments on assertions such as “all scholars agree”, but on linguistic evidence.
All I know is that the book you (authoritatively) quoted from was in its quote, sorely deficient in either evidence or reasoning, and very long on overstatement; and that your follow-up was just more of the same bit of “obviousness”.
If you like the fairytale that Jesus was Caesar, and that tucks you into bed at night, enjoy your sweet dreams.
Judging by his fairytales, I don’t think the dreams Sauwelios aims at are necessarily sweet. That is why there is an attraction in them. Good fiction is crime fiction
The point of that quote is that “Jesus’” last words may well have been put into his mouth by his “chroniclers” (for instance, a Psalms quote - always sounds deep!).
In the course of Carotta’s argument, this uncertainty as to Jesus’ last words (both as to what they were and if there were any at all) is used to show that “Jesus” may well have said nothing on that occasion, and may therefore have already been dead.
I am reminded now of a delicious passage - made me laugh out loud when I first read it:
“We can be confident that a gang went wild with daggers and other weapons, and indeed so wild that they wounded each other in the face. The arrest of Jesus seems to have been more murderous than it looks at first glance. Due to the fact that Jesus does not speak a word after the arrest [except for “Thou sayest it” and his famous last words] and is later depicted with an open chest-wound, untypical for a crucified one, it is reasonable to assume that he was murdered at this point and that his so-called arrest was actually his capture, his entrapment, and—as Mark’s choice of words indicates—his assassination.”
[Francesco Carotta, Was Jesus Caesar?, Crux, A posthumous trial?]
Yes. How bloody unlikely for a rabbi to be quoting the Scriptures on his last breath.???!!?
Argument? I saw no argument. I saw overstatement and claims to proof that were designed to convince weakminded followers of his ideas.
That you read such crap as anything more than a person’s fantasy is certainly a blot on your ledger. I suggest you stop quoting from Francesco Carotta or visting his website.
Evidence is what you want to make of it. I am discussing things with a crackpot who has an emotional investment in a conclusion and sees “evidence” everywhere. Like I said, clutch hard to your evidence. Make your make believe REAL.
Not unlikely, but not likely either. (“bloody”, “the Scriptures”, “???”…)
His argument is actually quite solid. Have you read the book? Or at least that passage I quoted within its context?
Your irritation is so telling, Dunamis! And so amusing!
The more I read of you, the more you seem to me to be just another frustrated scholar with a weakness for Christianity.
It is you who have an emotional investment in a conclusion. I had noticed the striking similarities between Jesus and Caesar well before I happened upon that book. But I am willing to regard it as a myth - a life-enhancing myth. (That is always the question. The Christian myth is hostile to life…)
No Jesus; just Caesar.
No beyond; just this world.
My irritation is not at the content of your assertion, but the weakmindedness of it. If a Christian made the same kind of statement, and many of them do, I would laugh just as hard. What is really “amusing” is that you are just participating in one more coddling “belief” that sees “evidence” everywhere, one more bedtime story. How typical of a follower of Nietzsche’s.
p.s. anyone else get the impression that Nick_A fell on his head and started posting as Sauwelios?
Only someone who cannot create their own truth, in other words someone who does not understand Nietzsche, would say such a thing…dear, dear follower…may you always have something to follow, and may you never lead.
O.G., Sauwelios is right, only a lacky truly knows his master.
