Is God a meany?

I’m an atheist. However, am considering God as a biblical character, therefore, real in its story.

If God can’t be evil then he can’t be good. There must be evil, otherwise the concept of goodness is not valid, and vice versa. So, to be good, he must also be evil.

In genesis, God himself created the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, so he probably knew evil… and how is that? How can you know what is bad when you have nothing or no one to show you what it is. There was only God before men, and when he create men, they had no knowledge of good and evil… so they couldn’t be an example for God to define evil. Saying that, God was the only one to have complete knowledge of good and evil, and how did he know that? Because he was good and evil himself.

When men ate from the tree and realized they were naked and told God, he asked who had told them they were naked, and understood that they had eaten the fruit from that tree. If noticing the fact that they were naked is a representation of acknowledging evil and good, and God knew that it was a result of eating the fruit, then it proves that God already knew evil… therefore, God is as evil as he is good.

Qzxtvbzr:
God is a being that loves. He created the universe, the world, and us creatures out of love. He created them not so that they could love and worship him, but so that they could be loved by him. God loves so much that he wanted other creatures to experiance that love, the greatest of all emotions. That is why God created the universe, so we could know what love is, not out of pity; that is a very unselfish reason (proving what I said).

My questions are:

• For God to love, he must love something. How can he love anything is there was nothing there?
• If he wanted other creatures to feel love, then there must have been creatures before he created them, otherwise, he would have created creatures from nothing… things that weren’t existents… only to make them love?
• Suppose he was bored and wanted to create things, from his own pure mind, to love (no very likely, but, anyway). Why then those creatures would have to kill to eat instead of surviving from love?
• If he created things to love, where do the other ‘emotions’ come from?
• You say he created the universe so we could know what love is. But we weren’t existent before, so we couldn’t even know anything for we just weren’t at all.
• How could God pity something if those weren’t existent?
• God had no reason to be selfish, as he had everything. So why did he create the universe? For fun?
• If he was the only being, then were the idea of CREATION came from?
• Why create anything if you are absolute?
• Was he lonely?
• If so, isn’t that possible that he is selfish, therefore not all good?

I could ask questions forever… but I will let you reply to those 1st.

Woah. Awesome questions. I’ll try to answer them as best I can…
Note, this will be a looooonnngggggg post so hold onto your socks. Please read it all because I will probably answer your early questions later in the post.

I have a couple of thoughts on this one.

Firstly, not everything, has to corespond an object. You can have love, without nessicarily having to love something.
Secondly, following up on the previous thought, God could know what love is, and know how great it is, thus wanting other creatures to experiance it.
God didn’t love anything because there wasn’t anything to love, but he did know what love is. Or perhaps he loved his future creations?

Genesis 1:1 In the begining, when God created the heavens and the earth,

“When God created the heavens and the earth (Universe is substitued in some texts),” it says. Following logic (and I don’t mean to be captain obvious), before anything is created it doesn’t exist. Thus there was a time before heaven or the universe existed. Only God existed, no other beings existed*. He did create from nothing for in Genesis 1:3, it says, “and God said, ‘Let there be light,’ and there was light.” Likewise everything else was created, by God’s word.
*I will get into Angels or “Free Spirits” in answering your next question.

Ahh, but God did create creatures out of his own mind that could survive from love alone. They are the angels.
This leads to the question then of if God alreay had creatures that know love why would he create humans? From my understanding of angels, their numbers are set. They cannot procreate. I also do not know if, even though they have to love of God, that they can love each other to the full extend that we can. So in a way their emotions are limited? I’m a theologist, not an angelologist. I’ll reform my thoughts on that topic and come back later.

All emotions stem from love, even it’s “opposite”, hate. St. Augustine says: "…that all emotions are caused by love. Therefore hated also, since it is an emotion of the soul, is caused by love
Now everything can be divided between love and hate; you either love something, or hate something to greater or lesser degrees* (like or dislike). Take any emotion and the object it is directed to. You will either find that you love that object or hate it. If you would like examples I can give them but for the sake of keeping this short I’ll forego them since you should be able to come up with your own.
However, even hate comes from love inasmuch as: " St. Thomas Aquinas says: “Nothing is hated, save through being contrary to a suitable thing which is loved. And hence it is that every hatred is caused by love…”
*I know people can be indifferent towards things. To consider this I’dd have to bring in the idea of apathy and it’s causes and I’d be moving into psychology which I admit I am completely ignorant about .

Yes. Nothing existed before the universe was created. God had this lvoe and was so moved by it that he created the universe so that beings could exist and know love. God didn’t create the universe so that we, as in you and I specifically could know love, becuase as you said, if we didn’t exist, we couldn’t care. Hmm… I don’t know how to explain this… Perhaps someone else could help me put this concept into suitable words. h2o? skeptic?

This wasn’t my idea. The idea was that:

The main point here is - If he’s pitying future people, well, that’s a paradox for him to create due to a pity which is in turn due to creation
This is an example of conveluded logic. You question in fact goes more to supporting what I said. How indeed, could He be pitying what doesn’t exist? If there is nothing to pity then He couldn’t’ve very well been creating out of pity, now could He?

He created the universe out of love, so that everything in it could be loved. That is an unselfish reason and no paradox is formed.
I could ask in turn: Why should He need to be entertained if He already has everything?

From Him. Isn’t that obvious? Perhaps if you elaborate more on this I can give a better answer. There are too many things you could possibly mean by this so for now I will take it at face value. Sorry.

Why not? I don’t mean to be cryptic but it is jsut as valid as your question.
God does not have everything. He is “that which no greater can be concieved”. Simply because God exist does not mean that creation exists, it only means that God exists.
I also answered this. God created out of love. He is absolute in love and created to share that love. If you were absolute, wouldn’t you want to share?
Same concept as my original post but different words. Creating to share love = unselfish reason.

No. God needs nothing but Himself. I wish I could elaborate, but I can’t right now; I’ll look into it.

Well… it’s a long post by my standards

Good and evil are good and evil from the subjective point of view, from man’s point of view. God alone is neither good, nor bad. He only is.

God took a risk when He created man, He gave him free will. And things had an order when God created them, they were good, they could admire His other creations and praise Him. Man, with his free will, had chosen not to follow God’s Word, the order He has established, therefor man had fallen from his place in Eden. From his own free will. That is evil, the … deformation of good. So it is not God who created evil, but man. And yes, God did create The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. And how evil means not listening to His word, He couldn’t have been evil. At most He had forseen a posibility of evil. That is how i see it.

Yes… Loving something implies a second thing, person or whatever. Even the self. But being love doesn’t imply any second. And that is how God is seen. And I think it is somehow improper to say that God loves… God is love means more than that.

Yes, He did create them out of nothing. That is what creation is after all. And the purpose is not to make them love, but to make them rejoice with Him. Love is implied… Hmm… Somehow equivalent…

Being bored involves time… And God is beyond time… And as for the creatures that would have to kill to survive, that happened after man has fallen from Eden, it was a consequence of introducing evil.

They are all faces of love. Be it natural love, be it perverted love.

Yes. And that’s why you were created. To know love, to know happiness.

He didn’t pity anything. He created from love.

This was said before, but you don’t want to understand. He created the universe from love.

I think I’m not getting the point of this question… Could you be more specific, Clementine?

On the contrary, Clementine… He couldn’t have been selfish, because there was nothing and noone else. Selfish you can be only among others.

Even if you consider God a character in a story, try to get the big picture.
I’m waiting for new questions

Wow… I guess someone posted faster than I did

Haha, yeah I beat you to it, h2o. I think you answered much better than I, though. In fact I was just signing on to appologize for making such lousy answers. I am; however, on the verge of a mental and emotional burnout, so that might give some excuse for my sub-par answers.

Wow, thanks… i wasn’t expecting so many answers.

Well, i wrote a huge reply which unfortunately, i left at my pc at home. I will post it tomorrow if i remember. But for now…

All the answers seem magical for me. Like a Harry Potter film when in the end everything can be explained by magic. God created everything from love and before there was nothing. I there is no proof of that… and doesn’t matter how manu questions i ask you will still give me the fact that he is something that we can’t explain, something out of ‘magic’ with magical powers. The bible was written and re written and re written… so long ago at a time when man couldn’t explain why they were what they were… when they began thinking about their own existance, question why they could talk and create while other animals couldn’t… they needed answers and till today, after all that science brought to us, we still haven’t got all the answers but we are getting there. Obviously is more acetable for the brain to say it’s ‘magic’… someone created us. Why? Because men only knew creation as a form of progress. Then, came evolution, and astronomy and answers about the universe, and more questions about it… and there will come more questions and more answers, and probably never stop. God and the creation of the world was the only way people could explain the world… it changed with time and religions disappeard and new religions appeard. All with new faces, with new interests… political, economic.
I see all religions as a way ancient people found to explain who they were. Now there is no need of that, we have other answers.
I stick to other answers, you stick to the former. I am not a creation of God because there isn’t a God, he is a character of an ancient story. You are because you believe he was real, that he is real. Am not part of this ‘reality’, am part of another ‘reality’. One of us is right… or not… maybe we are both wrong and the Muslims are right, or maybe the Buddhists, or even the Xintuists…or maybe we were create by aliens. If the latter, we will know one day, if not then we will never know.
I respect that people believe in God, and i see why they do, but i don’t, and i don’t people to say I was a creation of him, because i am not and i don’t want to be a character of a stoty it’s not real TO ME.
If one day, anyone can answer me with proof with more than just mystical and magical explanation that there was God, then i will change my mind, for i look only for the truth.

All my respect…

If you really want to learn about God I HIGHLY recomend buying the Summa Theologica by St. Thomas Aquinas. For a more reader-friendly version, pick up the Summa of the Summa. It is annotated with foot notes by Peter Kreeft. When I read it I had no backing in any type of philosophy but the footnotes really helped me understand it all.

Whatever insight h2o and I might give you here is nothing compared to the clarity of St. Thomas. Whatever we have shown you will be 100,000,000 times more in that book.

Yes, buy it. You won’t be able to read it all if you borrow from the library, and it is a nifty reference. You’ll be glad you bought it even if you choose to not agree with what is written.

If you are considering Him as a character in a book, then don’t try and assign Him your characteristics. You don’t do that in any other book, do you? You don’t change what the author says about characters, do you? If you’re taking Him as a character, then treat Him as a character. I really hate to say this, but don’t think so much!!!

I need to take a shower after that thinking comment

Qz,

I feel your frustration as I have been there. I just figure if you can’t beat them, join them. Just kidding, but it is hard to argue with someone who doesn’t know what you are talking about. Know what I mean? When you are used to arguing theology with fellow Christians and then you start making the same points to an atheist, you run into problems. Also, when in doubt, say ‘For His Glory’.

Assuming that there is a God:

First of all, you must quit thinking like God is a person. God is the source of life, therefore everything that is good is relative to God, including love.

This makes no sense, so I am skipping this one. But scripturally, it never says that God did not create other universes and other beings as well.

Because He did not just create creatures so that He could love them. Come on, He’s God, give Him at least the credit that He would develop a better plan than that. He created them so that His creatures could please Him and bring Him glory. All things were for God’s glory to bring Him pleasure.

Again, God is the source of life, therefore everything that is good is relative to God. Everything that is bad is relative God’s goodness. So all emotions are relative to what? God’s goodness.

Come on. Don’t you create a sandwich so that you can eat it? So why can’t God create something so that He can love it?

God would have to create something pitiful if he were to have pity on it? So why would he do that? God feels no pity.

For His glory. His creation was a reflection of his Glory. He wanted others to know His glory.

God is not a person, therefore He does not think and He has no ideas. He just does what He does b/c He does. We cannot know the intentions of a being such as God unless we were omniscient, like He is. Anyways the answer to these kinds of questions is ‘For His Glory’.

No, complete beings cannot be lonely.

Well, of course. How could He not be? If He is the greatest being imaginable, He has no choice but to be selfish. Nothing wrong with that, right?

So what is “Glory”?

Glory: Praise, honor, admiration, or distinction, accorded by common consent to a person or thing; high reputation; honorable fame; renown.

2Cr 4:15 For all things are for your sakes, so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God.

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Well, there you go, there’s my sermon for the day. I had to pull out some John Piper for a few of those.

So back to my question, I’ll keep it simple. If God’s love is unconditional, why is there a hell? Is it unconditional except on one condition? You skipped it last time. Any ideas?

I challenge you guys to take a step out of your Christian skin and take an atheistic perspective for a moment. Suspend your beliefs for a few minutes.

Why would God create someone only to play games with them? Does He expect everybody to know which religion to choose? Does everybody have to be extra smart to know that Christianity is the right choice? Then why did he create some people to be stupid?

If it is not a matter of smarts, then what about the people that were born in the middle east in a city where they would have no chance of taking a Christian perspective?

Why does he make everything so confusing? Is He trying to trick us? Why is He so mysterious?

If He loves us, why do some people get unfair advantages? Paul was a pretty faithful guy, right? I would be too if God spoke to me.

Quit hiding all of those questions you have tucked back in your closet. If your right, then what are you afraid of? Alright, well don’t reply to all of those questions. Just think about them. I could make up answers for those too if I wanted to.

Just want you to remember that we do have reasons for our doubts.

Qzxtvbzr

But I can’t question a book and get replies from it. It doesn’t work for me then.

Qzxtvbzr

I’ll try looking in a library and read a bit, if I get annoyed I stop it… if not I get it from a bookshop

Qzxtvbzr

The bibles said he created man out of his own image

Qzxtvbzr

Yes I do. If you don’t empathize with the character, if it has nothing that you can relate to yourself, then you will find the book horrible.

Qzxtvbzr

No, but there is your perception of it, your creativity. But books normally have 1 author, and you have to agree that this is not the case with the bible. It was re written so many times, and translated and interpreted over thousand years… you can’t even be sure that what you are reading is what it was written in the 1st place.

Qzxtvbzr

Sorry, but I’ve been doing it for about decades… I can’t have control of it.

Skeptic

You assume too much for a person who read no more than a few posts of what other people think.

Skeptic

Putting aside that the bible says God created man as an image of himself, I will continue…
You are stating something that you can’t prove. If I am to accept a being which doesn’t live, for there wasn’t life yet, is not flesh, has one feeling, which is love (but this love can create other feelings) and the power to create the universe… to create everything… and nothing existing before him… Nothing… can you picture a non-physical thing not existing, but still existing, and creating in the middle of… let me see… nothing? This is utterly nonsense… is illogical, irrational and fantastical. I would be the same thing that believing in… The Lord of the Rings.

Skeptic

No… I don’t say ‘Sandwich, you shall exist from …NOW!’… and it does. If there isn’t a cow, there is no milk… if there is no milk there is no way I can have cheese… and if there are no seeds I can’t grow them to have a bread.

Skeptic

Oh dear… this is like discussing astronomy… and thinking about the end of the universe at some point, or to think ‘to where is it expanding?’… Can you think of the ‘nothingness’? Show me the ‘nothing’ and I believe in your story.

Skeptic

Yes, I agree… so we come to this… why discuss it at all?
If all the answers are the same… there is no proof… and again… it all about faith… which doesn’t make God existent.

Anyway… what’s the question again?

Good question. Actually, I think this is one of the most misunderstood facts about God. God created man out of His own image, which means man has free will. Even God respects man’s free will, He can’t impose Heaven to one who chooses Hell. And basically, Hell is forgeting about who God really is.
As for the red questions, they find their answers in the above, somehow.

Right, he respects so much man’s free will that if you don’t obey, you are doomed to hell. According to St Paul, we already are.

How many choices… do what I say and go to heaven, don’t and go to hell… very free indeed.

Cle,

I am very careful when I make assumptions. I only assumed that you did not understand theological terms, as you do not reply with theological terms. You also replied with ‘All the answers seem magical for me. Like a Harry Potter film when in the end everything can be explained by magic.’ That’s just not a theological response. Know what I mean? However, I meant no disrespect and I am not implying that you don’t know anything about Christianity, just not theology. (Of course maybe you do and I assumed wrong.)

‘Image’ not ‘Copy’. This implies that God created man with some characteristics of his own.

Who said I was trying to prove anything? I am just saying theoretically from a biblical perspective. As far as I am concerned, the bible has more holes than 500 lbs. of swiss cheese.

Remember though, God is the source of all things. So in a sense God is the cow. Interesting, I’ve never thought of God as a cow before.

To h2o:

Oh now I see. Everything is clearer now. So all this time I just misunderstood and really we have free will, so all I have to do is choose to go to heaven and choose not to go to hell. It all seems so easy. Wait a sec!?!!? What am I saying? You had me going there for a sec. Have you taken brainwashing 101? cuz you are good! (No disrespect intended. I’m just kidding you. )

So to the “in God’s image” subject, like I told cle, it says image, not copy. If we were copy’s then we would be gods too. and there is only room enough for one infinite God. (I’ll explain this further if we decide to discuss “free will” further.)

Alright, so just remember, before you make claims, you must be able to back them up. If you are wanting to have a ‘free will’ debate, I’m all for it, but you must be willing to keep an open mind. I’m willing to debate both scriptural evidence of ‘free will’ or scientific evidence of ‘free will’. Take your pick. I’m willing to keep an open mind as well, but I doubt that you have an argument that I haven’t already heard.

What sides do you take on the “free will” topic, Qzxtvbzr and Clementine?

peace and love,

Jason

Something put forth in the Summa Theologica [I,3,3] is that Whether God is the Same As His Essence or Nature?

St. Thomas answers:

[I,3,4]

[quote=“Qzxtvbzr”]

Why I consider it almost a proof of God: What a concept that is. Creating out of love and so that other creatures can know what love is, even thought they will blaspheme you and deny your existance. How amazing is that? Who, or What would every think of something like that except a Supreme, and All-Loving Being?

How about good ole Mom and Dad?

!!!I know this one!!! Hell is where people who reject God’s love are, so it can exist in this world and the next. Hell is the place that God is locked out of! That’s right. People in Hell don’t want God to enter hell, and God loves them enough to give them space. People are free to leave Hell at anytime; all they have to do is accept God’s love.

I’m a recovering agnostic! That spent a little to much time studying to become a Catholic Priest. While what I wrote is not Catholic Dogma, it is the most cogent argument for Hell and an all-loving God.

Pax Vitae

Good answer Pax. It’s almost unarguable logically but I still don’t think that it makes any reasonable sense. I just have to ask you what you base your information on? Most definitely not the bible, so are you creating your own religion? I like the sound of it, Paxanity. I must agree that I would much rather be a Paxan than a Christian but I can find nothing to validate your beliefs. Just because you want things to be a certain way doesn’t mean that they are. I would love to believe there is a God who loves me but if there is no validation, I just can’t believe it. Why have false hope?

Who said that I am rejecting God’s love? How do I reject something that is not there? If it were there, I would accept it with open arms. Why would anyone want to reject something that is supposedly so good for them?

Why don’t they want God to enter Hell? Do they prefer the eternal burning and evil of hell over the glory and goodness of God? I don’t think that you could find a single person on this planet that would prefer the concept of hell over the concept of heaven. It just doesn’t make any sense. When it comes down to it, the question is not do you accept or reject God’s love? but would you rather go to heaven or hell? Think about it. If hell is really as bad as it is made out to be, every time somebody enters Hell, they would say, “This sucks. I think I will accept God’s love now and take the escalator up to Heaven.” Why would anyone want eternal suffering, if it is as easy as just accepting God’s love?

The only people that don’t accept God’s love are those that don’t believe in God. Have you ever heard someone say, “Yup, I know there’s a God but I just hate how much He loves me. Why doesn’t He just leave me alone and go about His own business?!”

What is this concept that you refer to as “God’s Love”? Is it just a feeling? something that you can see? or is it just an abstract intangible product that some people have and others don’t?

-Skep

P.S. - Pax means Peace but what does Vitae mean? or is that really just your last name?

Oops, I better explain what my idea of ‘Hell’ is, as you won’t find it in any of the Religious books. Also none of this is Biblically based, but just working from the idea of an All-Loving God. Also this was written about 2 years ago when I was a lot more religious then I am today. So it will most lightly come off as a little naïve.

Yes it could be said that I’m creating my own religion, as the only point of reference I used was what I thought was logically correct. But since Moses “talked” to God and wrote down his laws, I thought I would try my hand and see if God spoke to me.

Please note I’m not trying to create a new religion or change old ones. I was exploring all the possible ideas of different religions. So this should be taken as a work of fiction. I want to see what was good in each, and if the good from all could be added together to form a better world view from a religious perspective.

I don’t have false hopes, I went in search of hope and found nothing that I could call real. So I’m back where I started, but with one difference I know what is wrong with a lot of religions. The only hope I could find was the hope that I found within myself. I’m resigned to the fact, that when I die, I’ll go back to the nothingness, which I came from.

Yes all true, and like I said earlier, a naïve idea.

My idea of Hell is more about not being able to face our own true self. So not accepting that some of the things we do are morally wrong. A catholic would call this “Owning our Sin.” Or as JC put it, “John 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hates the light, neither coming to the light, lest his deeds should be criticize. But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are fashioned in God.”

But what if, to get into heaven you had to face all your sins first? The only good reason for Sin is if it’s a tool to teach. So the greater the sin you do, the greater the lesson you will have to learn before you enter heaven. Imagine that before the “Last Judgement” you could go to everybody you ever sinned against and ask them for forgiveness. That way before it was your time to be “Judged” you could have been forgiven all your sins? So God could say, “Your slate has been wiped clean as you have been forgiven all your sins. Because no other person holds any sins against you, nor will I. Go you sins have been forgiven.” It’s kind of like the idea of the woman that was being stoned to death, but JC stopped it and said, “Only he who is without sin can cast the first stone.” But again this is only what I would like to believe.

That’s not quite the way I would see it. To accept God’s love also requires us to face are sins. God won’t just go “No more sin”. It will be, “Look at your sins, learn from your sins. Forgive others, as you also want to be forgiven.” You can’t get into heaven and still believe that someone has sinned against you, as you will not have learnt that only people that love each other and will forgive each other will go into heaven. Hell is the waiting place for people who will not forgive, or won’t take responsibility for their own sins. Purgatory is the process of forgiving and being forgiven. Again this is how I would logically understand it, and it’s not what’s thought in any church I know of.

True. I know a lot of people like this. I don’t talk about religion with then. They know I’ve spent time in a seminary and if they want to talk about it with me they’ll come to me. But I don’t want to go around converting people, I just want to help those that want to be help by God. I know it annoys me when Joviha Witnesses come calling to my door. It’s when they start phoning me in telemarketing campaigns that I’ll really get pissed.

What is God’s Love? Good question. I assume it’s like a girlfriends but without the monthly nightmare. I’ve heard it expressed as the feeling of emptiness some people have, that they can’t quite put their finger on put know something is missing. It’s about being made more complete by being with God, so presupposes that we are not complete without him. But of course many will dispute this. But I don’t know. I once wanted to believe in a being that would make things right with this world. But I’ve given up hope and have said, “*uck you! God, I’ll do it myself.” Whether a real God exists or not, one thing is clear, he does very little to change the world in obvious ways. I believe if we want to live in a better world we must do the hard work ourselves, and give up, all this waiting for God.

Pax (Peace) Vitae (Life)
It could be translated as either Peace of Life, or Life of Peace. It’s what I’m searching for, a motto or maxim that I try to live by.

Pax,

I still can find no reason to believe your views, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t like them. I almost wish that they were true. I would much prefer that the millions of Christians around the world shared your beliefs than their current bigotous beliefs. In fact, I have come to many of your concepts of God, Heaven, Hell, and Love in my own search for the truth. In the end, I have come to realize that with no evidence or divine revelation, I am only left to live by an Atheistic outlook on life.

I must admit, however, that it has been rough trying to find meaning, structure, and purpose in life without a supreme being to designate it. Life, as I think you would agree, is what you make of it. If there is a God, He sure as heck isn’t giving us a helping hand. If we sit around praying and waiting all of our lives, nothing will ever change. This is why I find such a peace in my new Atheistic outlook.

I enjoyed your concept of redemption as that was a very new idea to me (at least in the sense of the heaven/hell scenario). It seems almost fair, but is useless to me because I can find no good reason to believe in an afterlife. I like the idea though and think that it is better practiced during life than waiting to face my sins in death. Facing our sins/selfishness is truly a redemption in a practical sense. In Christianity, when I look back on it, redemption always seemed to be somewhat like a game to me, although I would devote much effort in making myself believe it meant something. When I would pray for forgiveness, I would truly feel forgiven. It was almost as if I were forgiving myself. This is a very necessary part of a fulfilling and joyous life. Facing our own evilness is the only way we can conquer it. I very strongly believe that every man possesses a good heart and good intentions deep down. No one intends to become a murderer or an evil-doer when they are a child. Our childhood dreams are full of hope and imagined glory. Somewhere along the way our selfishness and ego’s take over. Our only redemption is in facing those sins and wrong-doings. But there is more to it than just facing and asking for forgiveness from those whom we have ill-affected. We must set things right. We must make up for our mistakes. Only in this, lies redemption. Could there possibly be any more joy than in fixing our mistakes and making things right? This is where we will find peace, joy, love, and happiness. This is my heaven on earth. I only wish that I could say that I had the will power to do these things. But until then, I will continue to strive for goodness.

What do you mean by “I’m resigned to the fact . . .” I just misunderstand whether you are communicating that you are for or against “going back to nothingness”? I am guessing that you intended to disagree with the no-afterlife theory. I understand your feelings but I think that you would agree with me that this is no more than a hope. There is no good reason to believe in a future consiousness after death, although there is much reason to hope for one. I have hope too but am unwilling to live as if there is an afterlife. As I think Polemarchus put it, we were fine without consciousness for the first half of eternity, why should the second half be any different? (Of course, I’m sure he put it more eloquently.)

Same here, and after growing up with Christian ideals and beliefs it is hard to overcome, especially when so much of your heart was devoted to it. On a personal note, how have you come to deal with the many relationships you have had with devout Christians? such as fellow seminary classmates/friends, family, and other friends? I am dealing with this now and am finding it tough to cope with. I feel very much an outsider now, almost as if I were coming out of the closet or something. Know what I mean? Most of my friends and family are very devout Christians and it is very hard to explain to them my reasons. Every explanation seems to them to be an attack on their beliefs. How have you dealt with these situations or have you?

peace,

Skep

How does one prove that God isnt immoral?
What if God is in a bad mood and raises his voice a bit?
What if our pain is his entertainment?

How can we even make sense of his logically unfathomable nature?
Do we really need a supreme being to give us meaning and purpose?

I think that many Christians have these notions of love and positivity ingrained into their minds so deeply that they are unable to look around and see that our world is crumbling. Pain, despair, poverty and indifference are in the majority rule when you look at the world as a whole.

However, I dont deny that there is tremendous good in our world. Humans have the capability of sharing love and compasion and reaching out to those in need. We know that we are capable of good or bad and we make our choices. Every person may possess a good heart but it can easily be tainted by the evils of man (or maybe this is what God had allowed).

Humans have a tendency to look to a supreme being to give us guidance and love but what we are forgetting is that we are the ones who have the power, the discretion, the authority to love each other. We set the moral grounds, we decide our destination, we choose to love or hate. We are the supreme beings and thus we give ourselves meaning and purpose. This should give us a sence of empowerment not pointlesness.

We can choose to wait until God enters the realm of human ken but we may have to wait forever. Why dont we just take responsibility for ouselves and our existence and face the world with courage instead of hiding behind a sheild of dogmatic beliefs. The weak need to be shielded by God for they are programmed to believe that the world is a cold and sterile place in the absence of their deity. We simply do not need this mentality.

Lets use what we know we definitely have, not what we think we have by way of faith. After all how can we logically know? and what would this require? The question will still remain. Is God a Meany?

Hi Skeptic,

I don’t have enough evidence to believe or not to believe that God exists. I’m still left in the middle, unsure of what is really true. As the amount of Order in the Universe has me puzzled. There are laws to the way all things interact with each other. It is the only think that is still keeping my mind open to the idea of God, or at least the concept of a “Universe Creator.” I’ve heard people argue that you make just as much a lead of faith in saying God doesn’t exist, as saying that he does. I’m inclined to agree with this. But I will admit, that on the whole the odds are stacked in favour of God not existing. But I’m going to take the middle ground and work on my arguments for and against God’s existence.

I agree with you whole-heartedly on this.

I mean, I don’t want to go back to nothingness, but have accepted that it is the most lightly outcome at the end of my life. I would love to believe again in an afterlife but I can’t. Logic and reason have robbed me of this hope. To quote Polemarchus, but from a different perspective, “The fact that I’ve cheated non-existence once, there’s hope I might do so again.” Hehe, I think were like the men looking at a glass that is half filled with water and one saying, it’s half empty, and the other is saying it’s half full.

I’m no longer in contact with the people in the seminary, as it has been about a year and a half since I left. We didn’t have much in common except the belief that the life of a Priest was our vocation. They were also very set in their ways of thinking; it was like they couldn’t think for themselves. I know this isn’t a nice thing to say, but they would never examine anything they where told or what they believed. It was like they would take whatever answer the Authority gave them at face value. I can’t live like that, I must know why it is a certain way, and if I feel they are wrong I will tell them so. That was the main reason I left, I was exploring philosophy which was opening up my mind to other possibilities. It was also at the beginning of all the child abuse scandals in Ireland. I heard stories from the inside talking about how everybody knew it was going on, but would not say anything! This really pissed me off! They had disowned there flock to protect there own, they were no better then scum. And there was no way I would ever be apart of an organization like that. I hope the Vatican is destroyed, as they are an abomination of desolation. I spent a lot of time reading the history of the Catholic Church, most of the good deeds that it did where done by the people on its fringe, the ordinary layperson, not the Cardinals or Popes. Most of the aforementioned bought there way into office and they set about plundering the wealth of the weak, even the local parish priest used things called indulgencies to get people to buy there way into heaven. This was the main trigger for the Reformation and Counter Reformation of the Church. If you look at a brief overview of the Catholic Church history it would read something like this: Persecution of the Jews, Inquisition, Crusades, Papal Infallibility, Child Sex Scandals. And this is the body of Christ! Sure, pull the other one! Anyway…

I have three sisters and my mother, all of them were very supportive of me both going in and leaving. Only one of my sisters is very religious, and her husband would have to be considered a fundamentalist, but in Ireland they’re a little different from the ones you’ll find in USA. But he does have all the conspiracy theories, which are fun to talk to him about, until you realize that he really believes this madness. He would be the only person that I would have difficulty’s talking to after I had left, but I try not to talk about it too much, as it will always lead to heated discussions.

As for my friends they have always been saying “Pax, you’ll never become a Priest!” and they where right. Most of my close friends are not in any way religious, so me going off to become a Priest was seen as utter lunacy. I gave up a good computer-programming job in Florida to move back home to Dublin. All in all I’m happy with the choices I’ve made as it’s made my life a lot more interesting, if a little disjointed.

While there are a lot of good things about Christianity, most of the people who practice it are terrible Christians. But I put up with a lot of what I would call nonsense, only because I know what they’re after is worth their delusions.

Pax Vitae.