Are you a Christian Uccisore? I thought Christians were supposed to be honest. You seem to be a very poor representation of honesty, and humility, while I’m at it. You are changing your argument every time you reply to me. Just admit you were wrong and move on.
Didn’t you say this last time?
“Extreme emotional duress” and “terrible suffering” are two different subjects. Well, at least you finally quoted my words rather than making up words for me.
So let’s see, I said:
You are suggesting that it means:
First of all, these two statements mean two completely different things. One speaks of “justification”, while the other speaks of “commenting”. Again, I have no problem with anyone making comments as I have told many times already. People can have any friggin opinion that they want. How many times do I need to repeat myself?!
Secondly, I have no problem with the co-existence of God and pain. I never made such an argument. I have a problem with a “benevolent” God justifying the creation of malformed babies and horrendous suffering in response to the sin of the their ancestors. There is no logic in that.
Why do I argue with idiots? I don’t know. I’m sure that you will just come back and try and rearrange your argument again (probably, my words too!) Just get over it and admit your mistake while you still have some respect.
In order to avoid any further confusion on this issue, let me say this: A person does not need to experience extremes of misery, suffering, emotional duress, or any other such phrase meaning "Negative experiences beyond what is typical from life" in order to have a well reasoned opinion on the Problem of Evil. In fact, a person could have much less negativity in their life than is normal, and still have a well reasoned opinion. Further, such a person could go on and make a coherent argument for the justification of God and evil, in other words, a sound explanation of how a benevolent God and terrible suffering can coexist- providing that such a justification exists.
Second point, a person who has experienced terrible suffering has no special insight that will help them form successful arguments regarding a benevolent God and terrible suffering.
If you don't disagree with any of this, then I guess I made a horrible mistake, and I'm sorry for dragging it out.
PAX, now.
Under your previous statement, though, you can’t have a Good Atheist, because if he were good, he would be automatically worshipping God, which atheists don’t do. I do see another option, though:
A person can worship God without believing God exists.
Is that possible?
Well, that was part of Jesus' purpose, was to live as a human and be the perfect example of correct human behavior, including humility. I don't think there's cause to believe Jesus's life is also meant to be an example of proper behavior for a God, though.
As far as "Do what I say, not what I do!", the main reason, as I see it, that that attitude is looked down on is it assumes the speaker is somehow justified in laying down the rules without being subject to them. God is actually legitimately in that position, where no human is.
Which raises the question in my mind “What was Hitler’s God like?”
Do you think it’s possible, that as God, you would do things that some mortals would find evil?
I don’t exactly disagree with this statement, but I do think it would be impossible to prove. In case people haven’t caught on, I’m a big believer in the ‘is vs. ought’ gap.
Do you agree, then, that you're worshipping a deified vision of yourself? That's the only thing I find blasphemous, not the other statements you've made.
The main thing I'm driving at is that a proper understanding of God in general, and Christianity is particular, is about changing and conforming the [i]self[/i] to God's will, not having our views of God conform to how we may change as a person.
This is what I was trying to imply with the “Good Atheistâ€. The Good Atheist does not worship God, he’s worshipping goodness, and rejecting the idea that God exists.
I personally don’t believe that.
You could say the same thing as you said about me. Do you agree, then, that you’re worshipping a deified vision of yourself?
“You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time.â€
You can’t keep everybody happy as long as they have freewill, some will always feel evil is being done.
It’s not that I worship myself. I worship the idea of perfect goodness that I have defined from reading many books (the bible being just one of them) and talking to people about them.
The only logical reason I see for God creating this world the way it is, is if it’s used to test us. Because of this ‘Test’ God does not tell us anything, as to do so would undermine the whole testing process. But all this is speculation and I accept that. The Catholics would say if something that is normally evil is used for the moral good then its okay.
Ok. But why? Is what sense is God subject to, or held responsible for whatever rules there may be- say, ethics for example?
I agree with this. That said, though, doesn't it remove the imperitive to believe in a God that does nothing we view as evil?
Wouldn’t this be a sophisticated kind of idolatry?
I'm a big fan of theological rigor. If a proposition is appealing to me, I'm automatically skeptical of it. I think when studying religious issues, as when studying any other field, what 'ought' to be true, or what would be nice if it were true, has very little bearing on reality. I think with religious issues, it's a little easier to give in and create a theology around our personal wishes, since we can't exactly put God in a test tube.
However, I think as we do this, or religious ideas can drift away from reality and loose their significance. For example, the idea that God is accepting of everybody, whether they believe in Him or not, as long as they are good people is an extremely appealing thing to believe. However, when looked at closely, it becomes apparent that 'good' doesn't mean anything at all unless it means something in particular, and if it means something in particular, then quite a few people won't measure up to it. What's worse, any human devised concept of 'good' is going to be completely subjective, so there's no reason at all to suspect that what you mean when you say 'good' is at all related to what God means when He says 'good'.
Another problem I see with tweaking our concept of God so that it doesn't offend or upset anybody is that the more you make God seem like our equal, our good buddy, completely understanding and tolerant of thus-and-such, the harder the Problem of Evil becomes for you to solve- we clearly don't live in a world that that sort of God would make, ask Skeptic.
What I’m saying is, it’s only that good gets done that matters. It’s better not to believe in God and do “goodâ€, then believe in Him and not do “goodâ€. Or I could state it as follows: God is only worshiped if you do good! And it doesn’t matter if you believe there is a God or not, so long as you do good.
I’ve already said I think God should ask more of use then he does him.
From reading what you have said it looks like your saying. I should believe more in a God that sometimes does evil in my eyes then a God that never does evil. That might be true for some people, but not for me. I know there are grey areas when it comes to morals, but for some things our current God is way off.
Haha, I have to laugh at this. While that could be true, I hope it isn’t. It would be quite funny to think that by loving Goodness more then God you’ll end up in hell.
It was the bible that said this not me, look at the parable of the dividing of the Sheep and the Goats.
I have to say that is worrying. Does that mean the one you dislike the most is more lightly true? Or do you have a very negative opinion of your own judgment, meaning if I like it then I must be, being deceived?
“Good†to me means helping people.
True, I do have a problem with evil, and I agree with a lot of what Skeptic says. I still have many more things on the evil front to think about and I hope to get some time over the holidays to do.
I think I understand what you’re saying. My question to you would be, is there any good reason to worship God? That is, if I know God exists, can I ignore that fact and do good, and be in the right?
Sorry, I’m not sure what you mean by this.
Well, what I’m really saying is that a person should try to believe in a God that really exists, as that God is. I’m also saying that it is possible that God would do things we view as evil, and essentially inventing a God-concept that fits all our ideals isn’t the best way to discover the real God.
Unless God defines goodness, goodness can only be a man-made concept. Holding a man-made concept in higher esteem than God pretty much defines idolatry, I would think. Does man have the capacity to invent a concept greater than God?
What did Jesus say the greatest commandment was?
Neither, exactly. It’s a way of reducing bias, so that I don’t automatically become convinced of whatever view makes me most comfortable. My views will be more likely correct if I strongly criticize ones that I otherwise would accept without hesitation.
God is only worshiped if you do good! And it doesn’t matter if you believe there is a God or not, so long as you do good. I’m saying to Worship God you must do Good. You might believe there is no God as an entity, but the fact that you do Good shows you still believe in what God stands for. Doing what is Right and Just is the same as believing in God. You believe in what makes God special, his love of Goodness. You believe in what God stands for, but you might not really believe he exists as a real person.
“That is, if I know God exists, can I ignore that fact and do good, and be in the right†It depends on what you believe about God. To do Good is the same as saying God exists. Praying is only and can only be done through Acts of Goodness. Even if you don’t know your praying when doing Good it makes no difference.
Oops, That’s a typo. I’ve already said I think God should ask no more of us then he does himself.
Well, until God chooses to reveal himself to me, I’m going to continue Worshiping Good and calling it God. Just because, it’s written in an old book, doesn’t make it right. Just because, most people believe something, doesn’t make it right.
“Only do to another, what you would like them to do to you.†That’s what I call Goodness. If the world lived by that one sentence, there would be no problems in the world, and we would all be living in an earthly paradise.
Some say we are made in the image of God. Maybe morality is a simple lesson that even humanity has the capacity to create a version of which is perfect. But lacks the ability to live by it. A well-lived morality by humanity will do more to help the world then the idea of God. God has left us to act out our own freewill, so all I’m saying is we should use morality to fix the world, now, and not wait for God.
You left out a small validation to what was asked of Jesus: “In the Lawâ€
Matthew 22:36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shall love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
But Jesus also said,
Matthew 5:17-18 Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill! For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass away from the law till all is fulfilled.
Most Christians believe that Christ completed that fulfilment by dying on the Cross. Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, “This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.†I think is the right quote, but I’m not sure, as that generation would see him dying on the cross. So therefore the most importance commandment is:
John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 15:12 This is my commandment, That you love one another, as I have loved you.
Ok, having read the above, I guess my next question would be “To what degree do you equivocate goodness with God?” Is goodness an intelligent personal force, or on the otherhand, is God really an abstract moral concept? Do you consider yourself a theist by the traditional definition?
So then, we are justified in having whatever God concept pleases us, until God satifies our curiousity about Him?
I’m sure you do. But can you show that this isn’t a man-made concept?
Neverttheless, the idea of God is what we’re discussing. What do you really think God is?
Is your point, then, that we no longer need to adhere to the “Greatest commandment in the Law” since Jesus fulfilled the law? IF so, then we also no longer need to adhere to the second great commandment, which you cite above as the source of your morality. Either way, Jesus still seems to be saying that loving God is at least as important if not more important than doing good.
It depends on what you want to believe. Goodness is as real as the life we live. Because all our actions can be judge by what I defined as Goodness. While what I defined is not perfect, it’s the best starting point for morality between two people. Then each person needs to define what else he or she believes is needed for morality. So what’s morally right between two people might not be right between another two.
To me I’ve gotten to the point I don’t care if it’s right or wrong. I see just as much proof for Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism, or any other of the old world religions. So by the lack of definite proof I’m going to invent what I see is the best of all of them and call it God, and I’ll write it in a book. Then in 500 years time people won’t know if it’s a real religion, or the work of someone’s over active imagination.
Once God is involved somewhere, you’ll never have proof, only a belief. Because it’s only through humanity that God is manifested.
I’ve said in another post, “God to me is Hope.†But for others I’ve seen it put, “God is everything that we don’t know and consider mysterious. This is why as we grow in knowledge, God’s powers are lessened.â€
I was being pedantic with you! If we are going to play the bible quoting game, I was showing you how we could say almost anything, so long as you know where to find the quote you need.
Everything I’ve said I believe. I’ve just as much reason to believe, as I do anyone else’s views. I just don’t have the same propaganda machines that the world religions have. I’m also not out to sell what I believe in bottles. I’m looking for Morality and Justice first, and then I’m going to look at the problem of Evil. But this is all from a philosophical position. I know nothing will change the status quo, but I would like to see what my utopia would look like.
I wasn’t giving up on the search; I just don’t believe it’s possible to find the correct answer. So, until I find an argument that convinces me otherwise, I’ll never know for certain if any doctrine said to be from God is accurately portraying God’s truths or a ghostwriter’s views.
That’s fine. I cut my reply short because if truth isn’t the major criterion of your having a belief, I don’t think we have enough common ground to hold a productive conversation. You, it’s clear, don’t hold any particular view strongly enough to try to convince me of it, and you can always reply to “Well, I don’t mind if my beliefs are false” if I provide an otherwise convincing argument to you, so all that’s left is the usual post-modern exhange of:
Person 1: “I think A.”
Person 2: “I think B, but respect your right to believe A and will not attempt to change your mind.”
Person 1: “And I will do the same in turn.”
~The End~
This has gotten too far. I thought we were discussing about The Bible…
Let’s face the facts. The Bible was written by over 40 different authors from all walks of life: shepherds, farmers, tent-makers, physicians, fishermen, priests, philosophers and kings, during a period of around 1500 years. Even so, all of them talk about the same God and the same plan of His. The Bible is by far the best selling book of all time, although t’s so old (The Bible Society´s attempt to calculate the number printed between 1816 and 1975 produced the figure of 2,458,000,000. A more recent survey, for the years up to 1992, put it closer to 6,000,000,000 in more than 2,000 languages and dialects). Besides, let’s take a look at some modern inventions predicted by The Bible:
----- automobile (Nahum 2:4)
----- atomic energy (Genesis 19:24-28 ; Isaiah 24:20 ; Micah 1:4 ; 2 Peter 3:10-12)
----- airplane (Isaiah 31:5 ; Isaiah 60:8 ; Jeremiah 48:40 ; Ezekiel 1:9)
----- radio (Job 38:34-35 ; Psalms 19:3-4 ; Romans 10:18 )
Not to mention the political prophecies, part of which we can see fulfilling today. These I’ve written here are very few, still outstanding.
Can anyone give me one rational explanation for all this? This is what I want, people! Don’t question God’s existence. Better question the facts. They will lead you to The Answer.
So, any rational explanation?
I have also found some contradictions in The Bible, reffering to some names and chronological data, but I’m working on it. Other problems, like the problem of suffering at innocent children, are very well explained at christiananswers.net
Now, don’t get me wrong… Buddhism also has some extraordinary facts, and many other religions. But, as far as I know, Christianity has withstood critics better than any other one. Besides, it’s messages from beyond time are proven to be true, as I tried to show above. A lie can’t pass the test of time.
Besides, I think I have to explain myself a little bit. I said “Don’t question God, better question the facts.” By this, I meant don’t enter dreamland, with hundreds of interpretations to simple facts. Keep contact with reality.
Come on! Most of those “predictions” take huge jumps of imagination. Look at Nahum 2:4 christiananswers.net/bible/nahum2.html it doesn’t even vaguely sound like a car. He’s blatantly talking about how terrifying the chariots will be, and nothing else,just cause they have torches doesn’t mean they’re headlights. Seriously, a car doesn’t even look like a chariot, no horses to be seen at all. More like a seige tower or something like that.
As for atomic energy (christiananswers.net/bible/gen19.html), any shmuck can talk about raining fire and things dissolving, no mention of the mushroom cloud though is there. It sounds far more like a volcano to me, which is what archaelogists actually think it was, they suspecty that soddom and gomorrah might be at the bottom of the dead sea, which was probably created by a volcanic eruption.
Come on, let’s hear some really specific predictions, that aren’t just taking a passage from the bible completely out of context and twisting it to say what you want. I haven’t read all this huge discussion, so this may have been said before, but seeing as no-one’s got the original drafts of the bible, any computer analysis is going to screw up straight away. Do you know how many errors therehave been in each new bible? Off the top of my head, the oldest bible is at least 300-400 years after Chrst wasn’t it? There isn’t even a copy in existence of it written in the original language, and there are always terrrible mistakes made in translations, especially back then when there were no editors, proof readers, etc.
I usually try and shy away from direct attacks on any religion, it’s just when they start making absurd claims that I really go for it. If anyone even suggests to me that the world was created in 7 days I rip em to shreds. The bible being a book of prophecy, oir their being hidden messages, is another fallacy I cannot stand.
It’s fine to believe in a God, but it doesn’t mean you can divorce reason from all discussions about it. The very fact that there isn’t an original copy in the original language invalidates any claim you make about computer analysis of the bible in 1 second flat. I can’t see a single way of fighting out of the corner, unless you wants us to take a giant leap into the rediculous saying that it was designed so that the particular version of the bible that those idiots at
did the ‘analysis’ on (I doubt it has ever happened) threw up all the results that it is supposed to have. Look what they say:
But transcriptions errors must have happened hundreds and hundreds of times over, even in the most conservative guesses of how true the versions we have today are to the original form.
And if God had designed it that way, why do it in such a weird way, if he’s gonna leave a massive clue like that, why not just make some mountains spell out, “The Bible’s True”, instead of a highly controversial way.
Sigh, this all sounds a bit aggressive, but don’t take it as a major attack on your religion. I think, if anything, my point is believe your religion because you have faith in it, not because some idiots who have given up on reason tell you to. I’m an atheist, I’m more than happy to admit that I am, but what I realise about religion is that people believe in it not because of facts or knowledge, but because they have faith, which in a way is so special precisely because you can’t prove it.
Isn’t life short enough and hard enough as it is? Wouldn’t it be a terrible shame if we who are in an enviable state of freedom unavailable to the vast majority of all people through time, brought about over long ages by the hard work and struggle of our ancestors, were to waste away our few precious lives of existence as slaves to an imaginary despot? That we who have that freedom which many are willing to die for should surrender our freedom for the sake of - what? Threats of eternal fire and suffering as unfair and inhuman as they are unlikely? Pipe-dreams of post-death pleasure as a reward for living our lives as if in a constant steep uphill, burdened by arbitrary rules enforced by a paper tiger, which are anti-life, anti-love, anti-happiness, anti-freedom, and which threaten us with everlasting pain simply for being human, and then have the impudence to claim love and perfection itself as their originator? To abandon our reason and sense and choose willingly to blindly accept this dark fate merely because we are told to?
To Magius and the guest: life really has no meaning, if reduced to whatever you get to do, feel, think etc until you die. Then, evil would be most indicated. That is, immediate reward, mainly.
To Matt: ok, maybe the verses I highlighted need a little fantasy to come to today’s reality. But, as far as I can tell, the political predictions are most valid. Take a look at bibleinfo.org.uk/war_on_america.htm (I don’t have the time, nor the skill to expose it that clearly)
As for the computer analysis, it was made on the original texts, which were in Greek, Aramaic and whatever. Not English, not Frech. I’m not saying I blindly believe their numbers, though…
As a matter of fact, all manuscripts ever found were identical, if not complete, those partial destroyed came to complete others, to fit into less damaged ones. There was one manuscript found, however, which had one word different, one sole word, the word “light”, which didn’t affect the meaning in the context anyway.
One more thing. The birth of Jesus was predicted with loads of details, which were exact. At least as much as historians tell us. What other religion did that to it’s leader? Facts that shouldnt be ignored…
You know why Israel was attacked in the Bible? Because that’s what happened originally when the old testament was written. Why do you think the Jews wanted to settle there? It is their “promised” land, where their original holy temple was sited and they have been told that it will be built again. All the Bible shows is that history is repeating itself, they were turfed out of where the lived millenia ago and now the arabs are trying to do it again, albiet with far more reason this time than petty wars like back in the old days, for the reason that the Jews turned up and turfed out the Palestinians who themselves have now lived there for millenia, and set up their own state with money and weapons from American Jews. There’s nothing magical about it, it’s just all happened before.
The coming of Christ is written in the Jewish books, the old testament is just the Jewish religion, they actually say that Christ wasn’t the new messiah and that’s why there’s a split between the two religions, it’s the reason why Christians are called Christians and not Jews, I suppose effectively Christianity is just a sect of the Jewish religion. So there’s no agreement that Christ fufilled all the prophecies, only Christians believe this, Jews don’t. The only “fact” about it is that it’s the basis of your religion, so of course it is fact to you, but to historians and people who lived there at thee time, did NOT see it that way, so there is no amazing parity between the prediction and what happened. A lot of the “facts” have been twisted as time has gone on, and what happened has been embellished and turned into myth, or as we otherwise know it, the new testament.
You only have to do a brief search on the internet into versions of the bible to find out that there’s great controversy with any of the scripts, none of them agree anywhere near 100%, I’ve seen figures of as much as 5% disagreement, which would shows just how absurd the claim of the computer analysis is. Nor is it true that there are versions written in the original language, the closest thing there is is the Dead Sea Scrolls, written in a local dialect which wouldn’t have been the same as Matthew, Mark, Luke and all that would have spoken in and the Catholic Church won’t even admit the existence of some of them precisely because it disagrees with their version. Not only that but they probably wouldn’t actually have access to the oldest texts. I’d bet damn good odds that they’re owned by the catholic/orthodox churches and they wouldn’t let any old idiot near them. I bet many of them haven’t seen light of day for centuries. I also want to remind you here that when you translate into a different language, the number of words in a sentence will change for many sentences. So it is not possible to do the kind of analysis you are talking about as there is no Bible in the original language. Essentially the Bible is corrupted, what we have got today is a close version to what it was back then, but nothing like 100% accuracy. You must have read about the recent controversy that was surrounding the revelation that “Virgin” was probably a mistranslation from “Unmarried”.
Whoever told you that all manuscripts found are identical is just lying to you. They don’t, you can find that out easily enough for yourself. Again, this is not an attack on your religion, it’s an attack on the bloody mindness of idiots who want to show that the Bible is “fact” by making wild and absurd claims about it. Always check who wrote what you are reading (for example many famous Christian “Doctors” and “Professors” who advocate Creationism have their academic qualifications from unaccredited universities, you know the ones you can buy a degree from for $5, often they set up these “universities” themselves), find out what they really had access to, find out what assumptions they’ve made, find out what facts that don’t fit with their thesis they have left out, in short check that they’re not spinning you a lie! There’s a fantastic quote by some one, I can’t remember it exactly and if anyone knows it please tell it to me, it essentially says that the trouble with the information age is that it gives even the most ignorant writers an air of respectability. The internet is especially bad for that. For the most part anyone who writes like they do in Jehovah’s witness magazines, like they have written in the two links you have given, all capital letters and italics, I ignore straight out. I only read them because I wanted to show they are lies. The truth doesn’t need such a fanfare, only lies do.
I don’t know. I’m sure that you will just come back and try and rearrange your argument again (probably, my words too!) Just get over it and admit your mistake while you still have some respect.
JK