Just out of curiosity...

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Re: Just out of curiosity...

Postby Zero_Sum » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:58 am

Carleas wrote:At least the "corporate government" is a devil-we-know. Corporations' motives are transparent as can be: they seek profit. The government is much less transparent, made up of elected representatives and life-tenure bureaucrats with motives from glory to greed to laziness to misguided principle etc.

Corporations own and fund the government [ all the individuals in it] not the other way around.
The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone.

I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death.

-Thomas Hobbes-
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Re: Just out of curiosity...

Postby Carleas » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:53 pm

Both "corporations" and "the government" are collections of people. They are not mutually exclusive sets, and the flow of influence within and between them are not as simple as one 'owning' the other.
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Re: Just out of curiosity...

Postby Zero_Sum » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:04 pm

Carleas wrote:Both "corporations" and "the government" are collections of people. They are not mutually exclusive sets, and the flow of influence within and between them are not as simple as one 'owning' the other.

Corporate lobbyists within congress and the senate. :wink:
The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone.

I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death.

-Thomas Hobbes-
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Re: Just out of curiosity...

Postby Carleas » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:35 pm

Sure, no doubt government is strongly influenced by corporations. But corporations are influenced by government, via laws, regulation, administrative and prosecutorial discretion, etc. Take copyright, for example: government decisions over the past couple centuries created whole industries, which then lobbied government for stronger copyright protection, and government obliged creating yet stronger corporations and lobbying interests.

It's a bit arbitrary to point to either side of a feedback loop like that and say that one side is dominant. It may be true locally (e.g. on who wrote a certain bill), but globally the system evolves together.
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Re: Just out of curiosity...

Postby Zero_Sum » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:51 pm

Carleas wrote:Sure, no doubt government is strongly influenced by corporations. But corporations are influenced by government, via laws, regulation, administrative and prosecutorial discretion, etc. Take copyright, for example: government decisions over the past couple centuries created whole industries, which then lobbied government for stronger copyright protection, and government obliged creating yet stronger corporations and lobbying interests.

It's a bit arbitrary to point to either side of a feedback loop like that and say that one side is dominant. It may be true locally (e.g. on who wrote a certain bill), but globally the system evolves together.

This is where we'll disagree, corporations and banks own the entirety of all government influencing all the very laws or regulations in place especially in so called democratic nations. [As far as banks and corporations are concerned more deregulation of business rather than regulation since that leaves them unhindered with impunity.]

Government historically use to be in charge of business, wealth creation, and private companies under monarchy but that all went away with parliamentary democracy where everything reversed where government is reduced to an organization that serves powerful private interests only. Democracy has never served the majority like it constantly claims to because it is an individualist philosophy to its core. In order for a majority of the population to be served you would need a collectivist model of government and monarchy was just that albeit an imperfect one but nonetheless worked a lot better than modern democracy. Contrary to popular belief monarchy was a collectivist form of government ruled by single individual much in the same way modern autocratic governments are.

In my studies of historical forms of government I'm starting to understand that collectivism are the best models where individualism models lead to disastrous environments that solely function to serve powerful individuals only at everybody else's expense. This is all a consequence of liberalism and democracy where I know you'll argue to death in support of both but the nonetheless this my perception on the subject.
The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone.

I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death.

-Thomas Hobbes-
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Re: Just out of curiosity...

Postby Carleas » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:03 pm

I don't think complete ownership by corporations and banks is plausible, but assuming they completely control government, they still compete against each other, and there are winners and losers among corporations and banks for any given policy; "corporations and banks" don't have monolithic interests. Google is going to want lax copyright laws and Disney is going to want to make them stronger. Banks that specialize in corporate debt may be OK with more restriction on publicly traded stocks, because that will increase demand for what they sell. The interests aren't uniform, they compete against each other for influence and they tend to be represented by different legislators and different agencies.

That means that the government will still pass laws that corporations and banks don't want, and those laws will reshape corporations and banks, influencing their structure and makeup, and thus what they will lobby for going forward. There's a feedback loop.
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