Suicide should be available to everyone

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Re: Suicide should be available to everyone

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:17 pm

My post was "why I think trump supporters are silly"

It's not because of my header that it was deleted, it was the facts.

Trump never was the republican outsider

Trump got billions and billions if dollars of free press from the very unliberal corporate media (we're talking North Korea standards here)

Trump was never hacked

Trump is illegitimate

These are all facts.

Calling people silly in a title is laughably ad hom
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Re: Suicide should be available to everyone

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:24 pm

Ecmandu wrote:My post was "why I think trump supporters are silly"

It's not because of my header that it was deleted, it was the facts.

Trump never was the republican outsider

Trump got billions and billions of dollars of free press from the very unliberal corporate media (we're talking North Korea standards here)

Trump was never hacked

Trump is illegitimate

These are all facts.

Calling people silly in a title is laughably ad hom
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Re: Suicide should be available to everyone

Postby phyllo » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:29 pm

How about, "Applying the rules in a way different from the way Phyllo would apply them"?
That's the relativist/subjectivist argument that I'm complaining because "I'm just not getting what I personally want" - that there is no objective reason for such a complaint.
If you want the lawyerly take, it's this: Uccisore, as moderator, has discretion to apply the rules in his forum as he understands them. The rules could be applied differently, you and I might have applied them differently. That doesn't mean Uccisore's application is impermissible. Your complaint could be phrased as an allegation of an abuse of discretion. But I don't see anything unreasonable in what happened: it's pretty straightforward to distinguish between PK's posts and Ecmandu's, and Uccisore has given reasons for making the distinction that are a reasonable interpretation of what the rules call for.

1. You have an open door policy which has seen the site flooded with crazies and spammers, who either can't post anything coherent or who intentionally post rubbish.

2. The forum rules for a productive and civilized discussion are not applied consistently. ( PK and others who personally attack those who disagree with them, for example)

3. There are bouts and fits of haphazard enforcement of the rules. (This latest incident with Ecmandu, for example)

This has led to a marked deterioration of the site.
Last edited by phyllo on Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Suicide should be available to everyone

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:29 pm

We all know the Russians could have hacked trumps tax returns... And then Hillary would be our president.
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Re: Suicide should be available to everyone

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:34 pm

Ecmandu wrote:We all know the Russians could have hacked trumps tax returns... And then Hillary would be our president.


I don't like married people, I don't like people who don't advocate suicide clinics, and I don't like people who don't make transparency or voting with anonymity a national security priority.

I don't like Hillary ...

She won though...

Russia decided the outcome
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Re: Suicide should be available to everyone

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:38 pm

The only question lingering in my brain is whether Trump knows he was selected.

The bushes saying they wouldn't vote for trump was hilarious!! Of course they did !! The whole thing was a fucking play!!

I just don't know if trump knows that
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Re: Suicide should be available to everyone

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:48 pm

phyllo wrote:
How about, "Applying the rules in a way different from the way Phyllo would apply them"?
That's the relativist/subjectivist argument that I'm complaining because "I'm just not getting what I personally want" - that there is no objective reason for such a complaint.
If you want the lawyerly take, it's this: Uccisore, as moderator, has discretion to apply the rules in his forum as he understands them. The rules could be applied differently, you and I might have applied them differently. That doesn't mean Uccisore's application is impermissible. Your complaint could be phrased as an allegation of an abuse of discretion. But I don't see anything unreasonable in what happened: it's pretty straightforward to distinguish between PK's posts and Ecmandu's, and Uccisore has given reasons for making the distinction that are a reasonable interpretation of what the rules call for.

1. You have an open door policy which has seen the site flooded with crazies and spammers, who either can't post anything coherent or who intentionally post rubbish.

2. The forum rules for a productive and civilized discussion are not applied consistently. ( PK and others who personally attack those who disagree with them, for example)

3. There are bouts and fits of haphazard enforcement of the rules. (This latest incident with Ecmandu, for example)

This has led to a marked deterioration of the site.


Not to mention that Uccisore is the worst ad hommer in the politics section
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Re: Suicide should be available to everyone

Postby Carleas » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:18 pm

phyllo wrote:1. You have an open door policy which has seen the site flooded with crazies and spammers, who either can't post anything coherent or who intentionally post rubbish.

2. The forum rules for a productive and civilized discussion are not applied consistently. ( PK and others who personally attack those who disagree with them, for example)

3. There are bouts and fits of haphazard enforcement of the rules. (This latest incident with Ecmandu, for example)

This has led to a marked deterioration of the site.

Let's assume this is true (a safe assumption). Given that, should Ecmandu's posts have been removed?
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Re: Suicide should be available to everyone

Postby The Eternal Warrior » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:18 pm

Ec... your ideas of politics are overly dramatic, Hollywood style production. You're easily caught up in the theater of it. All that you think you see is designed to keep you distracted. If you think you're paranoid or good at thinking in certain terms, youre not actually picturing the reality of being in those positions.

You're arguing like a conspiracy theorist instead of someone who actually knows what they're talking about.
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Re: Suicide should be available to everyone

Postby phyllo » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:36 pm

Let's assume this is true (a safe assumption). Given that, should Ecmandu's posts have been removed?
Given that he is here because of the open door, everybody welcome policy, and given that he has repeatedly posted the same crazy nonsense without any action being taken and given that the removal is not the beginning of any new policy on consistent moderation, I see no reason to remove the posts. He's just being singled out for a butt kicking.
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Re: Suicide should be available to everyone

Postby MagsJ » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:56 pm

Hi Phyllo,

I have had to moderate Ec on various occasions, and have had to move his threads and warn him, so Uccisore is not singling him out out of the blue.

Other posters are moderated just as much, but they accept the moderation and know it is a moderated site.

I hope that makes the situation clearer..
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Re: Suicide should be available to everyone

Postby Carleas » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:06 pm

phyllo wrote:Given that he is here because of the open door, everybody welcome policy, and given that he has repeatedly posted the same crazy nonsense without any action being taken and given that the removal is not the beginning of any new policy on consistent moderation, I see no reason to remove the posts. He's just being singled out for a butt kicking.

This seems a lot like the principle you previously rejected, "allow anything that's no worse than the worst thing we've ever allowed to stand on the forum." i.e., if what Ec is doing now is no worse that what he's done in the past (or what PK has done in the past?), we are obligated to let it stand.

You've criticized a lack of standards here, but doesn't this only allow for increasingly permissive standards? Or is it that we have to raise the standards explicitly and all at once, rather than incrementally?
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Re: Suicide should be available to everyone

Postby The Eternal Warrior » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:27 pm

I think that in the course of life, many have tried to do good so much they repressed the urge to abuse power until they literally didn't care anymore. The mods themselves, as one is aptly named, are only human, whatever that means when humans dont have full license to what they claim makes them 'human'. I also think that many have had no compunction about abusing power.

Myself, I accept moderation despite appearance. If we lack the freedom to question moderation at all when we believe it to be faulty, then we are made to accept it as is, beyond reproach, which no entity truly is, and that is faulty.

There is a difference between calling out moderation when it's faulty and this. This is mostly done because it was seen to be effective when done by someone else and was seen to be cool, badass and even though the difference between right and wrong was known then, it was largely pushed out of the way to let corrupt hopes blossom.

Regardless of standards or expectations, this falls into the category of instinctive and emotional responses dictated by psychology, proving those things to be more than imagined and believed and forced into play. The standards rise on their own, fluctuate based on individual and this is proper moderation mixed with therapeutic healing for those that matter. Obviously there are those whose feelings and reactions, while being noted, matter far less and this also falls into variable psychology, prioritization, etc.

It's complicated, legalistic, bureaucratical morals and ethics hardlined and hardwired into our instincts and reactions, cause and effect. Bolstered by animalistic ferocity, integrity and the strongest wills in existence. It's simply called justice, or just punishment.
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Re: Suicide should be available to everyone

Postby phyllo » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:43 pm

This seems a lot like the principle you previously rejected, "allow anything that's no worse than the worst thing we've ever allowed to stand on the forum." i.e., if what Ec is doing now is no worse that what he's done in the past (or what PK has done in the past?), we are obligated to let it stand.
I never said anything about "the worst". I don't why you keep repeating it.
You've criticized a lack of standards here, but doesn't this only allow for increasingly permissive standards? Or is it that we have to raise the standards explicitly and all at once, rather than incrementally?
You're not raising any standard. Uccisore has it in for Ecmandu. That's all. It's complete pretense to spin it as anything else.

You seem quite satisfies with the way that this has gone down. Fine.
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Re: Suicide should be available to everyone

Postby phyllo » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:50 pm

Other posters are moderated just as much, but they accept the moderation and know it is a moderated site.
There is an obvious reason why Ecmandu can't accept it and why he will keep posting the same stuff over and over.

Either ban him or deal with his problem consistently - ignore the posts or shift them to rant.
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Re: Suicide should be available to everyone

Postby The Eternal Warrior » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:55 pm

phyllo wrote:
Other posters are moderated just as much, but they accept the moderation and know it is a moderated site.
There is an obvious reason why Ecmandu can't accept it and why he will keep posting the same stuff over and over.

Either ban him or deal with his problem consistently - either ignore the posts or shift them to rant.


I was going to say, hire some kids to physically beat him up, but I'm sure ignoring his posts or moving them will work.
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Re: Suicide should be available to everyone

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:13 pm

You're all insane (I refine my meta theories and post on about 40 different conceptual topics)

This is why you are all insane:

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=192031

I find it laughable that republicanism is about innovation not being hampered by collectivism, but you want me gone.

Also... It is a fact that if Trumps tax records were hacked, Hillary would be president...

Damn you guys are dumb!!

It actually hurts to be this smart folks.
Last edited by Ecmandu on Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Suicide should be available to everyone

Postby Carleas » Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:23 pm

phyllo wrote:I never said anything about "the worst". I don't why you keep repeating it.

You're saying that we should treat the new stuff as we have treated "the same crazy nonsense" h's posted before. I read that as, "if we've allowed a post this bad before, we need to allow it again." Which is to say, we can only moderate when a post is worse that the worst post we've allowed. I keep saying it because what you're saying entails it.
phyllo wrote:You're not raising any standard. Uccisore has it in for Ecmandu.

Uccisore has it in for Ecmandu because Uccisore thinks Ecmandu's posts are shitty. It's personal in the sense that the same poster keeps making threads that the moderator sees as shitty in the same way, but that's different from Uccisore being somehow prejudiced against Ecmandu.

phyllo wrote:You seem quite satisfies with the way that this has gone down. Fine.

Not really. We're literally being criticized for a reasonable moderator action to clean up a forum, while at the same time being told that we don't do enough to clean up the forums. If you want a higher standard, that means more actions like these, that means moderating posts that we might have let stand in the past. It means doing what you're criticizing us for doing here.

Picture an alternative world where we left the posts. Would you look at them and think, "Boy they have low standards around here"?

We're damned if we do, and damned if we don't. That dissatisfying.
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Re: Suicide should be available to everyone

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:36 pm

Let's clarify this Carleas...

Uccisore thinks my POSTS are shitty, not not me personally... Right?

Have you read the shit Uccisore says about me??
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Re: Suicide should be available to everyone

Postby Carleas » Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:06 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Uccisore thinks my POSTS are shitty, not not me personally... Right?

Yes, in the sense that if you posted differently, your posts wouldn't be removed.
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Re: Suicide should be available to everyone

Postby James S Saint » Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:30 pm

Carleas wrote:we can only moderate when a post is worse that the worst post we've allowed.

:lol:
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Re: Suicide should be available to everyone

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:24 pm

Uccisore wrote:
phyllo wrote:It's funny that Ecmandu is on the blacklist while other trolls, spammers and nutters roam free.

Peter Kropotkin insults republicans, conservatives and Trump supporters in at least half of his posts. He has called the GOP a terrorist organization and anyone who has posted against Clinton "a supporter of terrorism". His stuff is not deleted or moved. :confusion-shrug:

http://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.ph ... t#p2636590


His stuff isn't deleted or moved because you can argue with it. He is providing interact-able content. I don't care about the insulting nature so much, because his insults are embedded in coherent points he is making which you can agree with, refute, or whatever. Ecmandu frequently doesn't rise to that level.



K: As this has been a thread I have ignored up till now because it is from Ecmandu and
frankly, I don't think much of anything he writes, I must admit I am surprised I am mentioned
rather frequently in this thread...Often as the boogy man, I admit....but I never thought
Ucci would defend me... I am rather surprised..... but let us comment on my "insults"....
have I called for the death or exile of any conservatives? NOPE, have I suggested they
are slower then the rest of us, YEP, but I have given my reasons for such a suggestion,
which as Ucci has mentioned can be agreed with or refuted or whatever....
Have I in the past suggested being conservative is a mental issue, yep and I am
not proud of that... I could have gone a different way with that besides saying
being conservative is a psychology issue.... but as I have noted before, I am
working on me and my issues... becoming human is about tackling such things....
creating a better society requires us becoming better people first....and such
is the place where I am coming from.....

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Re: Suicide should be available to everyone

Postby phyllo » Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:39 pm

Not really. We're literally being criticized for a reasonable moderator action to clean up a forum, while at the same time being told that we don't do enough to clean up the forums. If you want a higher standard, that means more actions like these, that means moderating posts that we might have let stand in the past. It means doing what you're criticizing us for doing here.

Picture an alternative world where we left the posts. Would you look at them and think, "Boy they have low standards around here"?

We're damned if we do, and damned if we don't. That dissatisfying.
You have decided to accept mentally ill members. You don't ban them (when you discover that they are MI). Mentally ill people will post crazy stuff. They can't be moderated because they are crazy.
Removing a couple of posts, once in a while, will not change their behavior. Notice that the removal of Ecmandu's posts produced even more posts from him.
Singling him out while ignoring other crazy posts from other MI members is ridiculous. It's caused by a personal issue between him and Uccisore.

While this is happening, all sorts of inappropriate posts and spam are allowed by posters who are not MI. These posters would benefit from moderation. There is good reason to believe that they would respond to moderation. The discussions would benefit. The forum would benefit.

There are two major issues ... what to do about MI members and what to do about 'normal' members who post inappropriately.
Neither issue is being handled well at this point.

My personal suggestions:

MI members - I think that I would ban MI members. If you choose not to do that, then I suggest ignoring their harmless posts and moving the offensive stuff to Rant.

Spammers - Give warnings immediately, move the spam to Rant. Ban them if they don't clean up their act.

'Normal' posters who write inappropriate stuff - They have to be warned. A moderation has to come into the thread and point out how a discussion forum works .... Point out that political opponents are not "supporters of terrorism", people who disagree with them in a discussion are not "insane" or "certifiable".
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Re: Suicide should be available to everyone

Postby phyllo » Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:42 pm

K: As this has been a thread I have ignored up till now because it is from Ecmandu and
frankly, I don't think much of anything he writes, I must admit I am surprised I am mentioned
rather frequently in this thread...Often as the boogy man, I admit....but I never thought
Ucci would defend me... I am rather surprised..... but let us comment on my "insults"....
have I called for the death or exile of any conservatives? NOPE, have I suggested they
are slower then the rest of us, YEP, but I have given my reasons for such a suggestion,
which as Ucci has mentioned can be agreed with or refuted or whatever....
Have I in the past suggested being conservative is a mental issue, yep and I am
not proud of that... I could have gone a different way with that besides saying
being conservative is a psychology issue.... but as I have noted before, I am
working on me and my issues... becoming human is about tackling such things....
creating a better society requires us becoming better people first....and such
is the place where I am coming from.....

Kropotkin
"GOP is a terrorist organization"

Anything to say?

"anyone who has posted against Clinton for the purpose
of getting Herr Trumpf is a supporter of terrorism....."

Anything to say?

You also mentioned specific members as supporters of terrorism. Anything to say?
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Re: Suicide should be available to everyone

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:54 pm

Oh phyllo...

How great of you to call yourself sane!

Any fucking moron knows we're all crazy

I imagine the quality of intellects you have in your life as friends is very low
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