The 3 embedded quotes thing is annoying...

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Re: The 3 embedded quotes thing is annoying...

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:56 pm

Lev Muishkin wrote:
Carleas wrote:
Lev Muishkin wrote:...more time might be given to answering points.

This reminds me of an interesting blog post I read arguing that post count is worth very little as a metric for the quality of discussion. And again, I don't think the ability to make quick, one-liner replies is a selling point. If all we were interested in here were how many posts we could accumulate in an hour, we'd be a website about reality television or we'd just populate the forum with spam bots. We're interested in philosophy, and quality philosophy at that, of which multiply nested quotes and the rapid-fire prattling they enable is not conducive..


Like I already said. You are mistaking what you think the Forum ought to be with what it.

I'd like to be part of that Forum you think this one is, but there are some other things you will have to do to achieve that.

Most of my time, here, seems to get eaten up brick batting with people who have no interest in philosophy. You'd have to cut out the dead wood, and instigate better standards. But that would also mean ejecting moderators like UCC, who is an abusive thug.


I have found none of the moderators here to be abusive thugs.
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Re: The 3 embedded quotes thing is annoying...

Postby Carleas » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:17 am

Lev Muishkin wrote:Like I already said. You are mistaking what you think the Forum ought to be with what it [is].

Am I doing that, or are you? Because it is is a forum that only allows quoting to a depth of three, and you're arguing that it ought to be a forum that allows quoting to a depth of ... what is your ideal depth, by the way? That might help me understand your position. Infinite?

But anyway, taking as a given that is me who justifying what ought be the case, I don't think it is absurd for me to say that ILP ought to act in a certain way to encourage better discussion, despite that the discussion we're trying to discourage is currently the norm. We do that by adding and removing forums, locking threads and issuing warnings and bans, and generally by setting and applying moderation policy. That's all aspirational: if ILP were perfect, we'd never change a thing.

Which returns us to the question: does limiting quote depth improve the quality of discussion? I maintain that it does.

Sauwelios, you may have manifested the hypothetical that Ecmandu described: I would like to quote to a depth greater than three in order to quote your reference to all three quote depths in one post. It's a contrived situation that only comes up in a discussion of quote depth, when we might expect our needs to exceed the bounds (in fact I think it follows from Godel's Incompleteness Theorem), but still, well played. =D>

But let me express my reply without the quote: in your P-S scenario, you're effectively saying "you said that I said that you said ..." (i.e. S is effectively saying "R said that Q said that P said..." At best, at this point, you're arguing over what you said, rather than over the content of the topic, right? When was the last time you had a real-world conversation in which a sentence like "you said that I said that you said ..." actually served to advance the topic?

And again, I'll concede that there might be a times where such a references is useful, but they are exceedingly rare. Most often, by far, deeply nested quoting is used because people click "quote" as a way to reply to a specific post, and then the person their talking to does the same thing, and again and again.

Next most often, the thread has effectively split in two, and several people are having one conversation between several other peoples' conversation and they'd like to keep the context by recreating their sub-thread in each post. In that case, I'd argue that the context is fairly effectively kept by keeping the three most recent posts in the sub-thread, and that if more quotes are truly that valuable they can be added serially instead of being nested.

And finally, we get a post like yours, where quoting it to a depth of only 3 is not really quoting it at all. I would be surprised if any other such posts exist on ILP, and I again applaud your ingenuity, whether or not it was intended. Hofstadter would be proud. =D>
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Re: The 3 embedded quotes thing is annoying...

Postby Lev Muishkin » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:42 am

Carleas wrote:
Lev Muishkin wrote:Like I already said. You are mistaking what you think the Forum ought to be with what it [is].

Am I doing that, or are you? Because it is is a forum that only allows quoting to a depth of three, and you're arguing that it ought to be a forum that allows quoting to a depth of ... what is your ideal depth, by the way? That might help me understand your position. Infinite?
>


No you are under the impression that this Forum has something to do with academic philosophy. I'm simply arguing for a procedural improvement, whilst you are living a fantasy.

As for the quote limit - why have one at all? Memory is cheap and text takes up little space. You can fit the entire canon of ancient Greek literature; drama, comedy history and all philosophy onto a CD-ROM.
So why have any limit? But why only three?

"Science is entirely Faith Based.... Obama is Muslim....Evil is the opposition to life (e-v-i-l <=> l-i-v-e ... and not by accident). Without evil there could be no life.", James S. Saint.
"The Holocaust was the fault of the Jews; The Holocaust was not genocide", Kriswest
"A Tortoise is a Turtle", Wizard
" Hitler didn't create the Nazis. In reality, the Judists did ... for a purpose of their own. Hitler was merely one they chose to head it up after they discovered the Judist betrayal in WW1, their "Judas Iscariot";James S Saint.
These just keep getting funnier.
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Re: The 3 embedded quotes thing is annoying...

Postby Mr Reasonable » Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:41 am

Lev, I think he said that the rules were set to facilitate what the forum aspires to be. More academic...in spite of the opposite being the norm. Then he said that at a certain point with all the multi quoting, people are arguing about who said what instead of the topic. I agree that when people start having 10 quotes in 1 post and taking up half a page with that stuff that it's cluttery and annoying and not conducive to good discussion. I've seen it before. It's ugly.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

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Re: The 3 embedded quotes thing is annoying...

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:27 pm

mr reasonable wrote:Lev, I think he said that the rules were set to facilitate what the forum aspires to be. More academic...in spite of the opposite being the norm. Then he said that at a certain point with all the multi quoting, people are arguing about who said what instead of the topic. I agree that when people start having 10 quotes in 1 post and taking up half a page with that stuff that it's cluttery and annoying and not conducive to good discussion. I've seen it before. It's ugly.


I agree with mr. reasonable... it is ugly. That's why I suggested a character limit.
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Re: The 3 embedded quotes thing is annoying...

Postby Lev Muishkin » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:20 am

mr reasonable wrote:Lev, I think he said that the rules were set to facilitate what the forum aspires to be. More academic...in spite of the opposite being the norm. Then he said that at a certain point with all the multi quoting, people are arguing about who said what instead of the topic. I agree that when people start having 10 quotes in 1 post and taking up half a page with that stuff that it's cluttery and annoying and not conducive to good discussion. I've seen it before. It's ugly.


It might not be pretty, but it has precious little to do with presenting a more academic Forum. Academically minded people prefer to make their own choices about the depth of their quote history. So the point is moot.

"Science is entirely Faith Based.... Obama is Muslim....Evil is the opposition to life (e-v-i-l <=> l-i-v-e ... and not by accident). Without evil there could be no life.", James S. Saint.
"The Holocaust was the fault of the Jews; The Holocaust was not genocide", Kriswest
"A Tortoise is a Turtle", Wizard
" Hitler didn't create the Nazis. In reality, the Judists did ... for a purpose of their own. Hitler was merely one they chose to head it up after they discovered the Judist betrayal in WW1, their "Judas Iscariot";James S Saint.
These just keep getting funnier.
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Re: The 3 embedded quotes thing is annoying...

Postby Lev Muishkin » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:21 am

Ecmandu wrote:
mr reasonable wrote:Lev, I think he said that the rules were set to facilitate what the forum aspires to be. More academic...in spite of the opposite being the norm. Then he said that at a certain point with all the multi quoting, people are arguing about who said what instead of the topic. I agree that when people start having 10 quotes in 1 post and taking up half a page with that stuff that it's cluttery and annoying and not conducive to good discussion. I've seen it before. It's ugly.


I agree with mr. reasonable... it is ugly. That's why I suggested a character limit.


It's almost like you don't know what you are talking about.
What would be your limit?

"Science is entirely Faith Based.... Obama is Muslim....Evil is the opposition to life (e-v-i-l <=> l-i-v-e ... and not by accident). Without evil there could be no life.", James S. Saint.
"The Holocaust was the fault of the Jews; The Holocaust was not genocide", Kriswest
"A Tortoise is a Turtle", Wizard
" Hitler didn't create the Nazis. In reality, the Judists did ... for a purpose of their own. Hitler was merely one they chose to head it up after they discovered the Judist betrayal in WW1, their "Judas Iscariot";James S Saint.
These just keep getting funnier.
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Re: The 3 embedded quotes thing is annoying...

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:24 am

Lev Muishkin wrote:
mr reasonable wrote:Lev, I think he said that the rules were set to facilitate what the forum aspires to be. More academic...in spite of the opposite being the norm. Then he said that at a certain point with all the multi quoting, people are arguing about who said what instead of the topic. I agree that when people start having 10 quotes in 1 post and taking up half a page with that stuff that it's cluttery and annoying and not conducive to good discussion. I've seen it before. It's ugly.


It might not be pretty, but it has precious little to do with presenting a more academic Forum. Academically minded people prefer to make their own choices about the depth of their quote history. So the point is moot.


You an expert in what academically minded people prefer? Crazy. Where'd you learn this stuff?
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: The 3 embedded quotes thing is annoying...

Postby Lev Muishkin » Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:43 am

mr reasonable wrote:
Lev Muishkin wrote:
mr reasonable wrote:Lev, I think he said that the rules were set to facilitate what the forum aspires to be. More academic...in spite of the opposite being the norm. Then he said that at a certain point with all the multi quoting, people are arguing about who said what instead of the topic. I agree that when people start having 10 quotes in 1 post and taking up half a page with that stuff that it's cluttery and annoying and not conducive to good discussion. I've seen it before. It's ugly.


It might not be pretty, but it has precious little to do with presenting a more academic Forum. Academically minded people prefer to make their own choices about the depth of their quote history. So the point is moot.


You an expert in what academically minded people prefer? Crazy. Where'd you learn this stuff?


University.

"Science is entirely Faith Based.... Obama is Muslim....Evil is the opposition to life (e-v-i-l <=> l-i-v-e ... and not by accident). Without evil there could be no life.", James S. Saint.
"The Holocaust was the fault of the Jews; The Holocaust was not genocide", Kriswest
"A Tortoise is a Turtle", Wizard
" Hitler didn't create the Nazis. In reality, the Judists did ... for a purpose of their own. Hitler was merely one they chose to head it up after they discovered the Judist betrayal in WW1, their "Judas Iscariot";James S Saint.
These just keep getting funnier.
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Re: The 3 embedded quotes thing is annoying...

Postby Mr Reasonable » Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:01 am

I was there for a long time and I don't recall there being a consensus on the matter in question.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: The 3 embedded quotes thing is annoying...

Postby Lev Muishkin » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:45 pm

mr reasonable wrote:I was there for a long time and I don't recall there being a consensus on the matter in question.


Exactly my point.

"Science is entirely Faith Based.... Obama is Muslim....Evil is the opposition to life (e-v-i-l <=> l-i-v-e ... and not by accident). Without evil there could be no life.", James S. Saint.
"The Holocaust was the fault of the Jews; The Holocaust was not genocide", Kriswest
"A Tortoise is a Turtle", Wizard
" Hitler didn't create the Nazis. In reality, the Judists did ... for a purpose of their own. Hitler was merely one they chose to head it up after they discovered the Judist betrayal in WW1, their "Judas Iscariot";James S Saint.
These just keep getting funnier.
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Re: The 3 embedded quotes thing is annoying...

Postby MagsJ » Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:07 pm

Quoting 10/20+ posts prior to the 3 quote minimum was illegible at best...
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get that time back, and I may need it for something at some point in time. Wait! What?

--MagsJ
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Re: The 3 embedded quotes thing is annoying...

Postby Lev Muishkin » Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:14 pm

MagsJ wrote:Quoting 10/20+ posts prior to the 3 quote minimum was illegible at best...


There is a big difference between 20 and 3.

"Science is entirely Faith Based.... Obama is Muslim....Evil is the opposition to life (e-v-i-l <=> l-i-v-e ... and not by accident). Without evil there could be no life.", James S. Saint.
"The Holocaust was the fault of the Jews; The Holocaust was not genocide", Kriswest
"A Tortoise is a Turtle", Wizard
" Hitler didn't create the Nazis. In reality, the Judists did ... for a purpose of their own. Hitler was merely one they chose to head it up after they discovered the Judist betrayal in WW1, their "Judas Iscariot";James S Saint.
These just keep getting funnier.
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Re: The 3 embedded quotes thing is annoying...

Postby Mr Reasonable » Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:04 pm

Lev, aren't you advocating for more than three?
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
User avatar
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