some dissent

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Postby Magius » Sun Aug 17, 2003 1:13 am

Ben stated:
You said in your previous post and i quote :
"i'm not saying philosophy is wrong, but what i am saying is that when you have a blind man leading another blind man across a busy road, the outcome isn't going to be a very good one is it?"

And NOW you are saying that you never said that?!?! What the hell is going on? You are completely contradicting yourself! I'm afraid I've had enough of your attitude on this board and I am removing you until further notice. Feel free to take this up with me in private by e-mail.


When I first read this I couldn't believe it. I read over Muslims posts and couldn't find ONE thing of a personal, demeaning, or derogatory nature. Yet here is our despotic leader saying he has had ENOUGH OF HIS <b>ATTITUDE</b>, what attitude? Oh, you mean Muslim disagrees with you on a matter or religious belief which I thought we were all well versed about how emotional and irrational one can get when it comes to their religious beliefs. I never thought you to be so blind Ben. But worst of all, and this is where the fire for my 'despotic leader' comes in, Ben decides to kick him off!?!

Truly, when I look all the posts over, it's like a father telling his son "your grounded until you agree with me, and hold the same beliefs as I".

Thoroughly disgusted...
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Postby ben » Sun Aug 17, 2003 10:48 pm

Dear Magius and any other ILP.com user reading this,

I'm a little bit at my wits end with all this. I have been accused a number of times by you Magius, of being a despotic leader. You claim to want to help this community out but I honestly don't believe that acting in this way really does benefit our community and I don't believe that's why you do it. Regardless, I've bitten my tongue for this long because I am in a position I never want to abuse and I see my role here as janitor, not as 'despotic leader'. However, I think you are wrong in your accusations. A while back I made an error of making an outburst on one of the forums and you rightly picked me up on it and I apologised. I did not see my actions as despotic, just a human error. In my opinion, your comeback to me was overly harsh and unwarranted, but I took it because I knew I'd made a mistake.

To take the case in hand. If you look at the dates of the posts you will notice that this all happened in December 2001 almost 2 years ago. It would've been more appropriate for you to ask me personally what had happened rather than going on a long public diatribe about how I'm trying to take over the world and wield these forums with an iron fist. If anyone on this board has a legitimate complaint against me and my staff they are perfectly welcome to bring it up with us in private. I happened to know 'A Muslim' in real life hence me being more forward with him. Also in other posts (I can give references) he had plagiarised websites and I gave him a warning for that. In this post here he made a statement and then two posts down claimed he never made it. That attitude of thinking this was some sort of playground where he could plagiarised and play kiddie games with his posts was the attitude I referred to when I kicked him off. He served his time and was later allowed back on. So there's the story for anyone who honestly cared about it. Was it despotic? You decide.

Which brings me to the point of this post. In the past Magius, when you have offended me and insulted me, and you have on many occasions whether you have meant to or not, I have not said anything because I very much value your contribution to the ILP.com community. You have been here since almost the beginning and provided us all with valuable insight in your posts. However, I am now saying in front of everyone, if you don't like it, leave. If you honestly believe I am a despotic leader (i do not by the way), then go elsewhere. I'm afraid, this is how I've decided to run this board. We are not a democracy and we never claimed to be. The board is not run by the people it is run by me and my staff. It's not a huge conspiracy, it's just the way things work. I believe that the best way to run this board is with me and my staff dedicating out time and energy to making this site what it is. All I get from you, is accusations and insults. Well, I'm tired of your unproductive and wild accusations so I would ask you now, infront of everyone. You can either choose to stay here and contribute as you have been without your unnecessary offensive posts, or you can decide that you can't tolerate the way I run this board and go elsewhere.

This isn't about a power trip, this isn't about being despotic. I just wanted to create a friendly environment for people to come and discuss philosophy. I believe I have done it. If it's not up to scratch for you, I'm sorry, this place just isn't for you.

Regards
Ben
Last edited by ben on Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Skeptic » Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:46 am

Magius,
I am fully in support of Ben on this. :-? Ben has devoted a lot of time, energy, and need I say, the money that pays for it all. We all have spent countless hours enjoying ILP at his expense, and this is how you repay him? If you really hate the way ILP is run so badly, go and start your own message board; although, I don't think any of us are asking you to leave. But I sincerely believe that you owe Ben an apology, if not a dozen roses and an 'I Love You' Hallmark card. :wink: Otherwise, I am asking you to leave on behalf of decency.

We have all put up with your constant outbursts and attacks for far too long, and it is not a very attractive contribution to the board. This board is for Philosophy and having a good time discussing issues that you enjoy. If you have an issue with someone, use the Private Message option. That is what its there for. I know for a fact that you have been warned and told this on many occasions. How long are we to put up with it?

Respectfully,
-Skep
Last night as I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky, I thought to myself,
"Where the heck is the ceiling?!"

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
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Postby Magius » Mon Aug 18, 2003 6:35 pm

Ben stated:
I have been accused a number of times by you Magius, of being a despotic leader.


I have accused you of more things than that. But the real question is, was I right to? You say 'No' now, but failed to say anything before, or what you call 'biting your tongue'. I fail to see the consistency in you biting your tongue only to say that which you failed to do in the past to put more push to your argument. Ben, you and I have had a number of discussion, a few of them I clearly explained to you that I do not come out clawing and biting unless someone has clawed and bitten someone else or me. Which is to say, when we have a disagreement and you want to talk about it without rude remarks, do so and that is what I will return.

Ben stated:
You claim to want to help this community out but I honestly don't believe that acting in this way really does benefit our community and I don't believe that's why you do it.


Alright, but let's put some meat on those bones of the argument, shall we? Give me some examples, references, etc. I don't mind admitting you are right if you show me your right. Secondly, I NEVER stated that the way I act is to benefit the community. I act the way I do for my own reasons, that doesn't mean I don't mean the community well, I do.

Ben stated:
Regardless, I've bitten my tongue for this long because I am in a position I never want to abuse and I see my role here as janitor, not as 'despotic leader'. However, I think you are wrong in your accusations.


Okay, so give me some logic, rational, references, or anything from which I can see what you're talking about.

Ben stated:
To take the case in hand. If you look at the dates of the posts you will notice that this all happened in December 2001 almost 2 years ago. It would've been more appropriate for you to ask me personally what had happened rather than going on a long public diatribe about how I'm trying to take over the world and wield these forums with an iron fist.


Yes, your are correct I completely missed the dates. Furthermore, you are also correct that it would've been MUCH more appropriate for me to ask you personally instead of posting live and calling you a despotic leader. I sincerely apologize for that, and I hope that you will be able to forgive me. Lastly, I know you probably meant it just as a figure of speech, but I don't think you are trying to take over the world, nor do I think that you are running these forums with an iron fist. I simply think that you have a tendency to get out of hand once in a while; this isn't to mean that others don't as well, like myself.

Ben stated:
If anyone on this board has a legitimate complaint against me and my staff they are perfectly welcome to bring it up with us in private.


Point taken. I will so in the future when I have a complaint.

Ben stated:
I happened to know 'A Muslim' in real life hence me being more forward with him. Also in other posts (I can give references) he had plagiarised websites and I gave him a warning for that. In this post here he made a statement and then two posts down claimed he never made it. That attitude of thinking this was some sort of playground where he could plagiarised and play kiddie games with his posts was the attitude I referred to when I kicked him off.


I don't see the first statement to be relevant whatsoever. On a message board, especially as the administrator of one, you should be aware of the fact that how you treat one will be taken to be expected by others how you will treat them. The fact that he plagiarised, he got a warning for, the fact that he contradicted himself is something numerous posters have done and continue to do while still enjoying their membership here on the board. You see, it appears that you were letting your emotions get in the way. Which doesn't bother me, cause like you said you know Muslim personally, but what bothered me was how you treated Muslim publicly within the posts of this thread. You might have sent him a Private Message about why he was contradicting himself, and asking him if he was playing games or not, etc. What I'm trying to get at is, if any average person reads this thread, they will see you acting despotically (because they don't see all the story behind the story).

Ben stated:
He served his time and was later allowed back on. So there's the story for anyone who honestly cared about it. Was it despotic? You decide.


If you had sufficient evidence for believing he was playing games and really wasn't here for intellectual conversation, then yes I believe you have acted rightly.

Ben stated:
Which brings me to the point of this post. In the past Magius, when you have offended me and insulted me, and you have on many occasions whether you have meant to or not, I have not said anything because I very much value your contribution to the ILP.com community.


??? Ben, as an intellectual which I assume you and I to be, we must attempt to see things for what they are without bias. If I accuse you incorrectly of something, I expect you to explain to me how I am wrong, as you have in this thread, and I will (if proven wrong) admit guilt and apologise as I have. But for you to allow the fact that you find me a valuable contributor to interfere in you biting your tongue is wrong, what's even worse is that you would use that fact against me later (now). This shows me that you don't sincerely value my contribution and this clashes with your biting your tongue originally. I would only have more respect for you if you came in and explained yourself when accused, instead of biting your tongue.

Ben stated:
You have been here since almost the beginning and provided us all with valuable insight in your posts.


I'm not saying this is nepotistic, I am only glad that you believe the above, but as in my above response, this shouldn't be affecting what you say or don't say to me, nor should it affect how you say it to me. I am not here for special treatment, glory, or any other kind of special treatment. I am here for respect, as I assume we all do for each other, and the search for truth. But I will understand if you don't believe that, given our past.

Ben stated:
All I get from you, is accusations and insults.


That's not all you get from me. But I understand how you feel.

Ben stated:
Well, I'm tired of your unproductive and wild accusations so I would ask you now, infront of everyone.


You still have yet to show me how my accusations (other than this one) are unproductive, or that they are wild.

Ben stated:
You can either choose to stay here and contribute as you have been without your unnecessary offensive posts, or you can decide that you can't tolerate the way I run this board and go elsewhere.


?? That first sentence is a little confusing, if I have been contributing without unnecessary offensive posts then we wouldn't be having this conversation. I not only tolerate, but in many respects like the way you run this board. Like I said before, I just think you have a tendency to get out of hand.

Ben stated:
I just wanted to create a friendly environment for people to come and discuss philosophy. I believe I have done it. If it's not up to scratch for you, I'm sorry, this place just isn't for you.


I too believe you have done it. I think that this place is up to scratch for me, which is something different from whether this place is for me or not, that is yet to be seen.

In conclusion, I once again apologise for my indiscretion within this thread. I was out of line and I should have definitely consulted you (Ben) via Private Message first. From this conversation, I hope that Ben et al will be more forthcoming to my and others complaints and not let their status on ILP or how much they have contributed affect their responses, or lack thereof, to the complaints. In saying that, I am open to hearing any explanation to any accusations I have made against Ben or anyone else in the past.

What's your take?
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Postby Magius » Mon Aug 18, 2003 6:53 pm

Skeptic stated:
I am fully in support of Ben on this. Ben has devoted a lot of time, energy, and need I say, the money that pays for it all.


This really mystifies me. I mean, I understand what I did wrong and I understand that you are rightfully on Ben's side. What I don't understand is the nature of the above quoted argument. It makes it appear that one is not to complain about someone who has devoted much of their time, energy, and money for something. Which is a fallacy. Don't get me wrong, I value greatly not only Ben's time, energy, and money devoted to this board but all the moderator and even posters. But, that has nothing to do with whether I will approach them with a complaint or not. It would be like saying no one should have complained about what Hitler was doing because he devoted his life, energy, and money to making Germany great. It's just not an argument. If someone has devoted much time, energy, and money into something; yet does something rude, inappropriate, or unethical they should be criticized and corrected.

Ben stated:
We all have spent countless hours enjoying ILP at his expense, and this is how you repay him?


Maybe I'm missing something. I thought Ben made this board for intellectual conversation, and as he put it he is open to criticism from any member or moderator. I didn't think that he made it so we could repay him by keeping our mouths shut and looking the other way at anything he does that is questionable. Ofcourse, if you are attempting to argue that I shouldn't have done it publicly, instead I should have PM him, then I agree, but again, this has NOTHING to do with the number of hours you or Ben have devoted to the board.

Skeptic stated:
If you really hate the way ILP is run so badly, go and start your own message board; although, I don't think any of us are asking you to leave.


I didn't say I hate the way ILP is run, I disagreed with how ben spoke to and treated Muslim in this thread. There is a difference. Furthermore, do not tell me what to do or not to do. If I don't like the way ILP is run, I will do as I please. It is not your place to tell me what to do, you can merely react to what I do if I hated how ILP is run. Understand?

Skeptic stated:
But I sincerely believe that you owe Ben an apology, if not a dozen roses and an 'I Love You' Hallmark card. Otherwise, I am asking you to leave on behalf of decency.


Hmmm...first you say that you believe that I owe Ben an apology (serious) and I agree, then you say 'if not a dozen roses and an 'I love You' Hallmark card (joke) which I assume is a joke. And then the last staetment says you are asking me to leave on behalf of decency (serious or joke?).

Skeptic stated:
We have all put up with your constant outbursts and attacks for far too long, and it is not a very attractive contribution to the board.


All of you? Is there a consensus? Both you and Ben concentrate on what you call my outbursts and attacks, yet both of you fail to mention whether you think they were justified or not. I assume you don't think them to be justified. If you've put up with my constant outbursts for FAR TO LONG, makes it sound like you are just dying to have me leave. If that is the case, speak your mind Skeptic.

Skeptic stated:
How long are we to put up with it?


Not for much longer.

Skeptic stated:
Respectfully,
-Skep


Your post was anything but respectful. You spent most of your time retelling what Ben had already stated, and even more time making unsound arguments and exagerations.

What's your take?
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Postby Pax Vitae » Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:29 pm

Hi Magius,

I personally value your contributions and I also hope you don’t leave our community, with you are very much a part of. But I will add one thing, which I hope you take as constructive criticism. At times some of your posts can come across as forceful and even confrontational at a personal level. While I do enjoy reading forceful and confrontational posts when it’s about an intellectual subject, but if it’s directed at an individual beyond the scope of the discussion topic, I feel this is crossing the line and becomes to personal.

Magius your contributions to the intellectual discussions on ILP are of great value. I hope you’re not feeling as if those in charge are ganging up against you trying to force you to leave, as this is not the case. While I do feel there is a personality clash between you and Ben, I hope in the spirit of intellectual honesty and in the passionate search for truth that a respectful understanding can be reached, were each can air your grievances then hopefully return to the intellectual discovery that has guided us all here. I for one will be saddened if this can’t be brought to an amicable solution, but that’s for only you and Ben to decide.
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Postby Magius » Tue Aug 19, 2003 9:03 pm

To Pax, Ben, and anyone else who is interested

Pax Vitae stated:
But I will add one thing, which I hope you take as constructive criticism. At times some of your posts can come across as forceful and even confrontational at a personal level. While I do enjoy reading forceful and confrontational posts when it’s about an intellectual subject, but if it’s directed at an individual beyond the scope of the discussion topic, I feel this is crossing the line and becomes to personal.


Pax, I hope you understand that I respect your words and understand them to be intended as constructive criticism, I only hope that I can help you help me (also a line from Jerry Maguire). What do I mean?

I believe your post as well as Skeptic's and Ben's have a similar theme in mind, though if I may say, yours does a better job of articulating it and sticking to the point. But all three lack crucial ingredients to helping me realize my bad ways, should they be there. What I am trying to say is, in light of a reasonable and rational argument I am willing to accept just about anything, whether it is about me, nature, politics, or about the very universe we live in. It is this reasonable and rational argument that you, Skeptic, and Ben lack in your posts to me. What I am asking for, if you don't mind, is for you to give me examples where I am being forceful and confrontational to an individual rather then the topic at hand.

I have, on myriad occasions made mention of myself working this way. You could tell me the most horrifying thing in the world, but as long as it is based in logic and rationality I will have no qualms about accepting it. It is for this very reason that I have a hard time accepting what you are trying to say, which is in complete contradiction to who I believe I am. It's not that I am already convinced you are wrong, I am not that close minded, it's just that I fail to see what you see, for this reason you will have to guide my path along your sight in order for me to see what you see.

I pose this same task to anyone who would have it become part of their interest, whether it be Ben, Skeptic, or any other poster/moderator.

In regards to whether I feel like the moderators/administrator are ganging up on me, I don't feel that they are. What bothers me on many occasions is to see someone being dealt with in the manner I am being charged with right now. Which is amplified when it is an administrator or moderator of the board in question. It is only for this reason that there are differences between Ben and I. It all started when I first came to this board and found people treating each other with great disrespect (For example, Sivakami vs Natsilicious - within one of the science threads) and couldn't help myself but to unravel that which was incoherent from what was coherent and to show it to them with clarity. Other such situations happened like the aforementioned one, except that in later ones Ben would post to me privately and sometimes not about me being confrontational. Yet, every time I responded to these accusations and explained the meaning and reasoning behind the words; Ben would never respond back. Then there was the situation in the thread called 'The Holocaust Industry', where I believe I was treated confrontationally by both Ben and Alex simply for having a difference of opinion and not saying anything about anyone. There are many more situations, like the present one with The Muslim and Ben where anyone reading the posts would come to the same conclusion as I, or so I believe. Ben says that he had other reasons that aren't mentioned in this thread, which is fine, but the point is that a certain impression comes across through that thread about Ben. My point is that it is a reasonable assumption I made, although, as I have already mentioned to Ben, I acted unjustly by posting to the public when I should have posted privately to Ben. For this I apologized.

What's your take?
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Postby Skeptic » Thu Aug 21, 2003 10:33 pm

Magius wrote:This really mystifies me. I mean, I understand what I did wrong and I understand that you are rightfully on Ben's side. What I don't understand is the nature of the above quoted argument. It makes it appear that one is not to complain about someone who has devoted much of their time, energy, and money for something. Which is a fallacy.

Actually, there is no fallacy. There is absolutely no reason for you to do what you did in such a disrespectful manner. You do not maintain the board, you do not pay for the board, and you do not run the board. Ben does. So rightfully, you may request something to be changed, and even in that, you should do it quietly and respectfully.

Magius wrote:Ofcourse, if you are attempting to argue that I shouldn't have done it publicly, instead I should have PM him, then I agree

This is exactly what I am attempting to argue and not only should it have been done privately, but respectfully and without the derogatory comments.

Magius wrote:but again, this has NOTHING to do with the number of hours you or Ben have devoted to the board.

It is an issue of respect for what has been provided you at no cost to yourself.

Magius wrote:
Skeptic wrote:If you really hate the way ILP is run so badly, go and start your own message board; although, I don't think any of us are asking you to leave.

. . . Furthermore, do not tell me what to do or not to do. If I don't like the way ILP is run, I will do as I please.

ummm, yeah. I know no other way to respond other than, "huh?"

Magius wrote:And then the last staetment says you are asking me to leave on behalf of decency (serious or joke?).

This is where many of your outbursts begin, with a misunderstanding. Please reread and look for transition words like "otherwise".

Skeptic repeating himself wrote:But I sincerely believe that you owe Ben an apology, if not a dozen roses and an 'I Love You' Hallmark card. Otherwise, I am asking you to leave on behalf of decency.

Make more sense now?

Magius wrote:All of you? Is there a consensus? Both you and Ben concentrate on what you call my outbursts and attacks, yet both of you fail to mention whether you think they were justified or not. I assume you don't think them to be justified. If you've put up with my constant outbursts for FAR TO LONG, makes it sound like you are just dying to have me leave. If that is the case, speak your mind Skeptic.

First of all, yes there is a concensus. Secondly, as far as your outbursts and attacks go, I don't care whether they were justified or not. That is not my concern and should be between you and Ben. I only care that you learn to curb your outbursts into a more appropriate manner of action. Be a gentlemen.

My post was quite respectful as well as honest, just as this one. Nobody wants you to leave, as we all would consider you a close friend; however there is a consensus of frusteration at your ill-mannered conduct. Personally I have had no qualms with you, but when I see you unneedingly, publicly disrupting the reputation of a person, it makes me upset.

again respectfully and as a friend,
-Jason
Last night as I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky, I thought to myself,
"Where the heck is the ceiling?!"

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
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Postby Magius » Tue Aug 26, 2003 7:01 am

Skeptic stated:
Actually, there is no fallacy.


Yes there is, it's called the Red Herring fallacy, where you take away the attention of the real topic and switch it to another. For example, the topic was about the thread in question and how Ben responded to The Muslim. The debate went further into how I should have Private Messaged Ben, which I agreed with, and how there was missing information that I wasn't aware of and that wasn't present in this thread. That being said, you came in with how much money and time Ben has put into the place. What does that have to do with it? Absolutely nothing. Once again, do not let this mean to you that I don't value the time and money Ben has put into this place, I do, but Ben's time and money have nothing to do with the present situation.

Skeptic stated:
There is absolutely no reason for you to do what you did in such a disrespectful manner.


Skeptic, you should go through some of the old archives and see that it isn't as simple as 'I don't have any reason'. Not only that, but I ask you to read the original thread and tell me if you see no reason for me to have assumed what I did. Moreover, I already agreed and apologized about private messaging Ben.

Skeptic stated:
You do not maintain the board, you do not pay for the board, and you do not run the board. Ben does. So rightfully, you may request something to be changed, and even in that, you should do it quietly and respectfully.


That's your opinion, and that's fine for you, but it doesn't have to be fine for everyone else. I fail to understand the logic in this, so because someone owns a board, pays for the board, they can go around treating people however they like and we shouldn't say anything because they pay and run the board? That's absurd. It is this absurdity that your argument is leading too. But like I said, I agree that I should've private messaged Ben.

Skeptic stated:
It is an issue of respect for what has been provided you at no cost to yourself.


Skeptic, each one of the posters here, whether just a poster, moderator, or administrator has had my utmost respect from the very beginning. There have been a few situations where Ben has disrespected me first with the way he approached me on a topic, with which he disagreed. This was before you were here. I am not saying Ben doesn't respect me, what I am saying is that there have been times where I didn't like how Ben approached a topic. One such example, you may view in the thread called The Holocaust Industry. The only time someone has lost my respect is when they wronged me or someone else. The only other time was, with Pangloss and Ben. Both of which made posts that were missing information and which any logical and ratinal person would have come to the same conclusion as I. This is not to mean I am justifying my actions, as I said, I agree I should have private messaged Ben - and I will also agree with you Skeptic, that I should have private messaged Ben without derogatory comments.

Skeptic stated:
If you really hate the way ILP is run so badly, go and start your own message board; although, I don't think any of us are asking you to leave.


??? If I hate how ILP is run you are telling me to start my own message board? Why? Don't you mean, if I don't like the way ILP is run I should LEAVE and start my own message board? If so, then you think wrongly when you say that you don't think any of you are asking me to leave. Cause you just did. Ofcourse, this is all on the assumption that I hate how ILP is run. Now, could you explain to me where you came up with this notion? Or am I to understand that because I disagreed with something our Administrator said to someone, it is to mean the extreme generality that I now hate how all of ILP is run?

Skeptic stated:
Magius wrote:
And then the last staetment says you are asking me to leave on behalf of decency (serious or joke?).

This is where many of your outbursts begin, with a misunderstanding. Please reread and look for transition words like "otherwise".


Could you elaborate? I am no closer to understanding your answer to my simple question of whether what you said was serious or a joke.

Skeptic stated:
Skeptic repeating himself wrote:
But I sincerely believe that you owe Ben an apology, if not a dozen roses and an 'I Love You' Hallmark card. Otherwise, I am asking you to leave on behalf of decency.

Make more sense now?


No. Clarify.

Skeptic stated:
First of all, yes there is a concensus. Secondly, as far as your outbursts and attacks go, I don't care whether they were justified or not. That is not my concern and should be between you and Ben. I only care that you learn to curb your outbursts into a more appropriate manner of action. Be a gentlemen.


Okay, but you still haven't explained to me how my outbursts are exactly that. Quote me from different threads, posts, etc. I can't hide anything, the words and posts are all there at your disposal, I don't have moderator or administrator power, I can't go and delete posts. All I am asking is for you to show me how my words are outbursts. Just so you know, I have spent a considerable amount of time thinking about your words. I have come up with a few scenario's where you may be right, that my posts were too agressive, demeaning, or outbursts. Furthermore, although I still fail to understand exactly what you or Ben consider to be outbursts, I will attempt to be more civilized in my posts from here on in (despite whether I am justified in doing something or not).

Skeptic stated:
as we all would consider you a close friend;


Although I am touched by those words, I have a hard time believing them. If you truly considered me a friend, would you not have approached me sooner and spoke to, say via Private Message, about me not being so outburst like? I know that that is what I would do for a friend, in fact I do do that with my friends. How come there has been enough time and energy being put into this to come up with a concensus between all of you, but not enough time or energy to message me personally as a friend until now? Or am I wrong in assuming that this has been going on for a while?

Skeptic stated:
however there is a consensus of frusteration at your ill-mannered conduct. Personally I have had no qualms with you, but when I see you unneedingly, publicly disrupting the reputation of a person, it makes me upset.


I understand, I will try to cease and desist disrupting the reputation of others, although I can't say I understand how I have done that (other than with this event with Ben).

What's your take?
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Magius
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