Wholeness

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Re: Wholeness

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:29 pm

Is myth, then, a name for evolving instincts? It is true that we could not understand a dung beetle without some knowledge of what it does. Is that the beetle's myth? And how do we share that?
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:06 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Is myth, then, a name for evolving instincts? It is true that we could not understand a dung beetle without some knowledge of what it does. Is that the beetle's myth? And how do we share that?


I can't make that specific connection at the moment. The dung beetle uses dung for food. So the dung ball rolling behavior is related to hard-wired behavior patterns related to food. Now biological hard-wired strategies to obtain food are ancient--billions of years old. We share some of those with other species. One such strategy is predation.

Humans are predators. Predation is food related. Predation is a biological interaction where one organism, the predator, kills and eats another organism, its prey. The biological roots of predation are far more ancient than the human species. One could say that we are embedded in the predatory instinct. It is more ancient and archetypal than we are as a species. It structures our physiology and our behavior and our "psyche" unconsciously and consciously. From that point of view, is it surprising that images of predation should bubble up in our dreams, visions and the collective narratives that are mythology?

The world is too complex to perceive as it is. There's more to everything than is possible for any organism to perceive and understand. Humans solved this problem by simplifying the world into a place in which to act. That's what myths are. They're not about objective phenomena. They're embedded in values. They're not about matter. They're about what matters.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:12 pm

If matter makes myth, is not myth about matter? Unable to fathom a thing in itself, we describe the thing by what it does. The description is the myth.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:27 pm

Ierrellus wrote:If matter makes myth, is not myth about matter? Unable to fathom a thing in itself, we describe the thing by what it does. The description is the myth.


The matter that matters for myth is Mater.

Today... we talk of “matter.”
We describe its physical properties.
We conduct laboratory experiments to demonstrate some of its aspects.
But the word “matter” remains a dry, inhuman, and purely intellectual concept, without any psychic significance for us.
How different was the former image of matter—the Great Mother—that could encompass and express the profound emotional meaning of Mother Earth.

Jung, Carl Gustav. Man and His Symbols (pp. 84-85). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby MagsJ » Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:28 pm

felix dakat wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Not so much fill, as traverse.. I have found that they both work well together.. the Cosmopolitan and the Traditional, without having to exert much effort or thought about it all.. it’s not as complicated a predicament as I thought.


So you have become a "traveler" who has learned how to move adroitly between the psycho-social worlds of your mother and father. What is that like? Can you give me an example of how you make it work?

They are both Eastern/Western-mixed.. from the same place(s), and yet still having some regional differences, so it seems that nurture, and my own personal Dharma, are factors in my traversals.. reading up on both histories is currently proving helpful, and both fascinating and incredulous.. at the same time.

Around my mid-teens, I realised that what worked well for them, wasn’t.. for me, so I would still listen to them and their advice, but seldomly not always take it. :D
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ


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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:09 pm

MagsJ wrote:
felix dakat wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Not so much fill, as traverse.. I have found that they both work well together.. the Cosmopolitan and the Traditional, without having to exert much effort or thought about it all.. it’s not as complicated a predicament as I thought.


So you have become a "traveler" who has learned how to move adroitly between the psycho-social worlds of your mother and father. What is that like? Can you give me an example of how you make it work?

They are both Eastern/Western-mixed.. from the same place(s), and yet still having some regional differences, so it seems that nurture, and my own personal Dharma, are factors in my traversals.. reading up on both histories is currently proving helpful, and both fascinating and incredulous.. at the same time.

Around my mid-teens, I realised that what worked well for them, wasn’t.. for me, so I would still listen to them and their advice, but seldomly not always take it. :D


It sounds like you have a rich background for exploring the meta-myth which is a cross-cultural story embedded in our common humanity. It is , perhaps, mostly unconscious but it comes to light in our dreams, myths and arts and religions. Eastern and western culture reflects it in different ways. The Yin of Chinese culture seems to be an abstracted version of the same structure imaged by the Great Mother of ancient Western mythology for example. They both represent the unknown from which we are born and to which we ultimately return.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:04 am

Sorry I can't keep up. Hopefully I'll make it up. But while it's on my mind :

Reading Jung's Red book, popping right up from my unconscious mind, I suddenly had an epiphany, and busted out laughing.

Jung is always harping on not just believing in Christ, or basically objectifying Christ as outside, not inside, but rather, Jung harps on being Christ, or becoming Christ.

And then later, he says that he reduces a giant -- Izdubar -- down to egg size, and puts him in his pocket. Then later he takes the egg out, cracks it open, and the giant Izdubar pops right back out into his original giant size.

And it hit me. Jung is being Christ, that he often harps on. In fact, he's being a Super Christ, out performing Jesus Christ ; who only performed miracles, like healing the sick, and the blind, etc., walking on water, raising the dead, but not ever shrinking a giant into a pocket sized egg, and later bringing him back into the original giant sized.

Jung is being Christ, even more than the original archetype, Jesus ... being bigger and more miraculous. Here's a possible explanation for these fantastical stories told by Jung :

This tangible and apparent world is one reality, but fantasy is the other reality. So long as we leave the God outside us apparent and tangible, he is unbearable and hopeless. But if we turn the God into fantasy, he is in us and is easy to bear.
~~Jung, C. G.. The Red Book: A Reader's Edition (Philemon) (p. 296). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:08 pm

Aware-ness wrote:Sorry I can't keep up. Hopefully I'll make it up. But while it's on my mind :

Reading Jung's Red book, popping right up from my unconscious mind, I suddenly had an epiphany, and busted out laughing.

Jung is always harping on not just believing in Christ, or basically objectifying Christ as outside, not inside, but rather, Jung harps on being Christ, or becoming Christ.

And then later, he says that he reduces a giant -- Izdubar -- down to egg size, and puts him in his pocket. Then later he takes the egg out, cracks it open, and the giant Izdubar pops right back out into his original giant size.

And it hit me. Jung is being Christ, that he often harps on. In fact, he's being a Super Christ, out performing Jesus Christ ; who only performed miracles, like healing the sick, and the blind, etc., walking on water, raising the dead, but not ever shrinking a giant into a pocket sized egg, and later bringing him back into the original giant sized.

Jung is being Christ, even more than the original archetype, Jesus ... being bigger and more miraculous. Here's a possible explanation for these fantastical stories told by Jung :

This tangible and apparent world is one reality, but fantasy is the other reality. So long as we leave the God outside us apparent and tangible, he is unbearable and hopeless. But if we turn the God into fantasy, he is in us and is easy to bear.
~~Jung, C. G.. The Red Book: A Reader's Edition (Philemon) (p. 296). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.



Like awareness, "fantasy takes up no space."

Over time Jung came to understand Christ as an archetypal image of psychic wholeness.


Psychology and Religion: West and East (The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, Volume 11)

These mythological statements, coming from within the Christian sphere as well as from outside it, adumbrate an archetype that expresses itself in essentially the same symbolism and also occurs in individual dreams or in fantasy-like projections upon living people (transference phenomena, hero-worship, etc.).

The content of all such symbolic products is the idea of an overpowering, all-embracing, complete or perfect being, represented either by a man of heroic proportions, or by an animal with magical attributes, or by a magical vessel or some other “treasure hard to attain,” such as a jewel, ring, crown, or, geometrically, by a mandala This archetypal idea is a reflection of the individual’s wholeness, i.e., of the Self, which is present in him as an unconscious image.

The conscious mind can form absolutely no conception of this totality, because it includes not only the conscious but also the unconscious psyche, which is, as such, inconceivable and irrepresentable.

The archetype of the Self in the soul of every man that responded to the Christian message, with the result that the concrete Rabbi Jesus was rapidly assimilated by the constellated archetype.

In this way Christ realized the idea of the Self.

But as one can never distinguish empirically between a symbol of the Self and a God-image, the two ideas, however much we try to differentiate them, always appear blended together, so that the Self appears synonymous with the inner Christ of the Johannine and Pauline writings, and Christ with God (“of one substance with the Father”), just as the atman appears as the individualized Self and at the same time as the animating principle of the cosmos, and Tao as a condition of mind and at the same time as the correct behaviour of cosmic events.

Psychologically speaking, the domain of “gods” begins where consciousness leaves off, for at that point man is already at the mercy of the natural order, whether he thrive or perish.

To the symbols of wholeness that come to him from there he attaches names which vary according to time and place The Self is defined psychologically as the psychic totality of the individual.

Anything that a man postulates as being a greater totality than himself can become a symbol of the Self.

For this reason the symbol of the Self is not always as total as the definition would require. Even the Christ-figure is not a totality, for it lacks the nocturnal side of the psyche’s nature, the darkness of the spirit, and is also without sin ~Carl Jung, CW 11, Paras 230-232

Carl Jung and Princeton University Press

https://carljungdepthpsychologysite.blo ... uUS_UVKjIU
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby MagsJ » Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:42 pm

felix dakat wrote:It sounds like you have a rich background for exploring the meta-myth which is a cross-cultural story embedded in our common humanity. It is , perhaps, mostly unconscious but it comes to light in our dreams, myths and arts and religions.

Same gods, different names, same myths and legends, of the Euro, Indic, and Iranic cultures.. and to a lesser extent, the Afro-Asiatic and Sinic ones.. whose descendants can all be found in a War Book or two, through surnames or known origins.

So yes.. a shared meta-narrative, that is generally experienced in waking-dreams and daytime visions, and not in the dormant kind of dreams where one should be sleeping, not thinking, at a time such as that/of sleep.

Eastern and western culture reflects it in different ways. The Yin of Chinese culture seems to be an abstracted version of the same structure imaged by the Great Mother of ancient Western mythology for example. They both represent the unknown from which we are born and to which we ultimately return.

I think not so much just the culture of China but of the East in general, as Chinese culture and philosophy are unique only to the Chinese and other Sinic countries.. but the Euro and Indic cultures share the most similarities and even surnames and place names, of which the Afro-Asiatic and Sinic Nations do not seem to.. for instance, Manu, Márya, Man, Mānavá, means the archetypal man or progenitor of humanity, in the Euro, Indic, and Iranic language families.

There is a time-divide between god(s) and man.. the unknown epoch and era.. when god(s) left man, to look after themselves. The un-enabling separation of god(s) from man.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ


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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:44 am

Aware-ness wrote:Jung :
This tangible and apparent world is one reality, but fantasy is the other reality. So long as we leave the God outside us apparent and tangible, he is unbearable and hopeless. But if we turn the God into fantasy, he is in us and is easy to bear.
~~Jung, C. G.. The Red Book: A Reader's Edition (Philemon) (p. 296). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.
felix dakat wrote:Like awareness, "fantasy takes up no space."

Over time Jung came to understand Christ as an archetypal image of psychic wholeness.

Well me thinks, if you will, that fantasy isn't totally disconnected from the material world. It certainly sparks off synapses in the brain. It's not nothing ; not just figments floating in dreamland ; a fiction connected, pressurized, by our nervous system, springing up from biology, blowing off steam in the night ... or in the day, in Jung's case.

And: "Over time Jung came to understand Christ as an archetypal image of psychic wholeness."

"Over time" is important when speaking about Jung. That's perchance why it's hard to put your finger on the "whole" Jung.

I haven't timelined it, but maybe it's in Jung's early days, when he was stressing being Christ, and in later years saw Christ as an archetype. I like Christ as an archetype. That way I don't have to rack my pea brain trying to figure out how in the world I was ever going to be Christ. And being an archetype is out of the question.

Not unless Wholeness is Christ, or myself in its entirety ; seen and unseen, revealed and hidden. Archetype or not I've certainly got that down, without trying. I'm Christ without trying. We all are.

But can we shrink a giant down into a pocket sized egg? and crack the egg and bring him back, like the Christ Jung could do?
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:41 pm

MagsJ wrote:
felix dakat wrote:It sounds like you have a rich background for exploring the meta-myth which is a cross-cultural story embedded in our common humanity. It is , perhaps, mostly unconscious but it comes to light in our dreams, myths and arts and religions.

Same gods, different names, same myths and legends, of the Euro, Indic, and Iranic cultures.. and to a lesser extent, the Afro-Asiatic and Sinic ones.. whose descendants can all be found in a War Book or two, through surnames or known origins.

So yes.. a shared meta-narrative, that is generally experienced in waking-dreams and daytime visions, and not in the dormant kind of dreams where one should be sleeping, not thinking, at a time such as that/of sleep.

Eastern and western culture reflects it in different ways. The Yin of Chinese culture seems to be an abstracted version of the same structure imaged by the Great Mother of ancient Western mythology for example. They both represent the unknown from which we are born and to which we ultimately return.

I think not so much just the culture of China but of the East in general, as Chinese culture and philosophy are unique only to the Chinese and other Sinic countries.. but the Euro and Indic cultures share the most similarities and even surnames and place names, of which the Afro-Asiatic and Sinic Nations do not seem to.. for instance, Manu, Márya, Man, Mānavá, means the archetypal man or progenitor of humanity, in the Euro, Indic, and Iranic language families.

There is a time-divide between god(s) and man.. the unknown epoch and era.. when god(s) left man, to look after themselves. The un-enabling separation of god(s) from man.


Yes. We live in a disenchanted or desacralized world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disenchantment

Jung considered symbols to provide a means for the numinous to return from the unconscious to the desacralized world[11] - a means for the recovery of myth, and the sense of wholeness it once provided, to a disenchanted modernity.


Theologian Paul Tillich had a parallel vision.

The positive side of the mystery—which includes the negative side—becomes manifest in actual revelation. Here the mystery appears as ground and not only as abyss. It appears as the power of being, conquering nonbeing. It appears as our ultimate concern. And it expresses itself in symbols and myths which point to the depth of reason and its mystery.

Tillich, Paul. Systematic Theology, Volume 1 (p. 110). University of Chicago Press. Kindle Edition.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:52 pm

Aware-ness wrote:
Well me thinks, if you will, that fantasy isn't totally disconnected from the material world. It certainly sparks off synapses in the brain. It's not nothing ; not just figments floating in dreamland ; a fiction connected, pressurized, by our nervous system, springing up from biology, blowing off steam in the night ... or in the day, in Jung's case.


I never implied otherwise. It doesn't change the fact that neither awareness nor fantasy take up space.

If you want to discuss how the brain produces the phenomena of experience including a sense of wholeness that's another matter. Of course it's not fully understood.


Aware-ness wrote:"Over time" is important when speaking about Jung. That's perchance why it's hard to put your finger on the "whole" Jung.

I haven't timelined it, but maybe it's in Jung's early days, when he was stressing being Christ, and in later years saw Christ as an archetype. I like Christ as an archetype. That way I don't have to rack my pea brain trying to figure out how in the world I was ever going to be Christ. And being an archetype is out of the question.


Show me a thinker whose thought is not evolving over time, and I’ll show you a thinker who is dead.

Aware-ness wrote:Not unless Wholeness is Christ, or myself in its entirety ; seen and unseen, revealed and hidden. Archetype or not I've certainly got that down, without trying. I'm Christ without trying. We all are.


Sure. No problem. If you don’t mind being crucified.

Aware-ness wrote:But can we shrink a giant down into a pocket sized egg? and crack the egg and bring him back, like the Christ Jung could do?


Yes. Easily. In fantasy, like Jung said.

If you weren't able to shrink a giant down into a pocket-sized egg and crack the egg and bring him back in your imagination, those words would be meaningless to you. You wouldn't even have been able to ask the question.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:26 pm

In a recent dream a red devil dragged me from a schoolyard down to a subterranean space below the floor. Images of ascent and descent recur in dreams, mythology and literature. Literary theorist Northrop Frye has written at length about this archetypal theme as summarized in this book review:

...the idea of the axis mundi -- the vertical line postulated by the ancients as running through the cosmos, connecting heaven to earth and earth to hell -- underlies many of Western literature's central myths, providing writers with a wealth of metaphors and images. Those images, he[Frye] notes, tend to fall into two categories: ascent and descent. Images of ascent, which symbolize man's longing for heavenly perfection, include Jacob's ladder, the purgatorial mountain in Dante's "Divine Comedy," the turning staircase in T. S. Eliot's "Ash Wednesday" and the towers and spirals that recur in Yeats's poetry.

The reverse movement -- downward into death or damnation -- has yielded equally powerful images. Christ's descent to earth echoes Adam's fall from innocence, while Adam's expulsion from the garden is mirrored by the exile of Cain. Whereas Mr. Frye sees downward movements in Dante and Milton as "simply descents to death and hell," he argues that they can take on more creative aspects in other writers's work.

Proserpine's descent every winter into the nether world is a necessary prelude to her ascent in the spring -- and the earth's renewed fertility. Prometheus is punished by Zeus for bringing fire down from heaven but is heralded as the liberator of mankind. Ahab descends into madness as he searches for the great white whale but in doing so becomes a symbol of man's eternal quest for wisdom.

For Mr. Frye, the lower depths represent not only death or hell; they can also stand for "whatever in human nature is subordinated in the traditional structures." In Freud, this comes to signify the unconscious promptings of the id; in Marx, the energetic strivings of the proletariat. For such revolutionary thinkers, Mr. Frye says, "the initiative comes from below" and "the response to it is normally a journey of exploration downward." https://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/04/book ... ature.html


Descent may be related to pathologizing which Hillman defines as the psyche's autonomous ability to create illness, morbidity, disorder, , and suffering in any aspect of its behavior and to experience and imagine life through this deformed and afflicted perspective. (Re-visioning Psychology) It is also related to Peterson's schema of the transition of the knower from the known territory to the unknown territory. (Maps of Meaning).

On the way to wholeness disintegration is no less significant than integration.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:34 pm

felix dakat wrote:
Aware-ness wrote:Well me thinks, if you will, that fantasy isn't totally disconnected from the material world. It certainly sparks off synapses in the brain. It's not nothing ; not just figments floating in dreamland ; a fiction connected, pressurized, by our nervous system, springing up from biology, blowing off steam in the night ... or in the day, in Jung's case.
felix dakat wrote:I never implied otherwise. It doesn't change the fact that neither awareness nor fantasy take up space.

If you want to discuss how the brain produces the phenomena of experience including a sense of wholeness that's another matter. Of course it's not fully understood.

Aligning mind with nature doesn't have to be understood.

And awareness and fantasy take up the space of the whole universe.
Aware-ness wrote:"Over time" is important when speaking about Jung. That's perchance why it's hard to put your finger on the "whole" Jung.

I haven't timelined it, but maybe it's in Jung's early days, when he was stressing being Christ, and in later years saw Christ as an archetype. I like Christ as an archetype. That way I don't have to rack my pea brain trying to figure out how in the world I was ever going to be Christ. And being an archetype is out of the question.

felix dakat wrote:Show me a thinker whose thought is not evolving over time, and I’ll show you a thinker who is dead.

A dead thinker? That's an idea that's been around for a long time. Prolly as long as humans have been dreaming, and having night time visitations from deceased loved ones ... who had to be somewhere in the afterlife.
Aware-ness wrote:Not unless Wholeness is Christ, or myself in its entirety ; seen and unseen, revealed and hidden. Archetype or not I've certainly got that down, without trying. I'm Christ without trying. We all are.[/quote
felix dakat wrote:Sure. No problem. If you don’t mind being crucified.

No fear. There's no cross around here.
Aware-ness wrote:But can we shrink a giant down into a pocket sized egg? and crack the egg and bring him back, like the Christ Jung could do?
felix dakat wrote:Yes. Easily. In fantasy, like Jung said.

If you weren't able to shrink a giant down into a pocket-sized egg and crack the egg and bring him back in your imagination, those words would be meaningless to you. You wouldn't even have been able to ask the question.

Nothing can be actually accomplished in fantasyland. Jung's imagination was his playground.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:21 pm

Aware-ness wrote:Aligning mind with nature doesn't have to be understood.


True. Articulated knowledge is embedded in unarticulated knowledge. One can "align mind with nature" without knowing what either the mind or nature are. Is there is anything to be gained by understanding the neuro-science or psychology that underlies such an alignment? I think so.

Aware-ness wrote:And awareness and fantasy take up the space of the whole universe.


How so?


Aware-ness wrote:Nothing can be actually accomplished in fantasyland.


And if by "fantasyland" you are referring to the imagination, nothing can be accomplished without it.

When our articulated knowledge becomes out of sync with our dream, we become dissociated internally. We think things that we don't act out and we act out things that we don't think. That produces a sickness of the spirit. The cure is an integrated system of belief and representation. But, many settle for a system of dogma or ideology. Others settle for cynicism or nihilism. The way is narrow and few find it.

Aware-ness wrote:No fear. There's no cross around here.


Your response is remarkable for it's literalism. Can one be Christ without "crucifixion" in some sense?

Aware-ness wrote:Jung's imagination was his playground.


It seems to me you're judging Jung solely on the basis of "The Red Book".

Biographers and critics have disagreed whether these years in Jung's life should be seen as "a creative illness", a period of introspection, a psychotic break, or simply madness." Anthony Storr, reflecting on Jung's own judgment that he was "menaced by a psychosis" during this time, concluded that the period represented a psychotic episode. According to Sonu Shamdasani, Storr's opinion is untenable in light of currently available documentation. Jung himself stated that: “To the superficial observer, it will appear like madness.”It appears that Jung has premeditated the arguments of Storr and (Jung biographer) Paul Stern and, in riposte, declares the analyses of Storr and Stern superficial.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Red_Book_(Jung)


Before you pass judgment on Jung, maybe you should read the 10,203 pages of his 20 volume "Collected Works".
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:52 pm

Apparently, the path to wholeness is to live your animal :

He who never lives his animal must treat his brother like an animal. Abase yourself and live your animal so that you will be able to treat your brother correctly. You will thus redeem all those roaming dead who strive to feed on the living. And do not turn anything you do into a law, since that is the hubris of power.
~~Jung, C. G.. The Red Book: A Reader's Edition (Philemon) (pp. 341-342). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.


And even Jesus failed to do that :

In 1918, Jung argued that Christianity had suppressed the animal element (“On the unconscious,” CW 10, §31). He elaborated this theme in his 1923 seminars in Polzeath, Cornwall. In 1939, he argued that the “psychological sin” which Christ committed was that “he did not live the animal side of himself” (Modern Psychology 4, p. 230).
~~Jung, C. G.. The Red Book: A Reader's Edition (Philemon) (p. 457). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:52 pm

Aware-ness wrote:Apparently, the path to wholeness is to live your animal :

He who never lives his animal must treat his brother like an animal. Abase yourself and live your animal so that you will be able to treat your brother correctly. You will thus redeem all those roaming dead who strive to feed on the living. And do not turn anything you do into a law, since that is the hubris of power.
~~Jung, C. G.. The Red Book: A Reader's Edition (Philemon) (pp. 341-342). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.


Without a doubt. The conjunction of the symbolic and the embodied self is critical to wholeness.

And this isn't surprising. The findings of cognitive science tell us that human reason is a form of animal reason, a reason inextricably tied to our bodies and the peculiarities of our brains. These results tell us that our bodies, brains, and interactions with our environment provide the mostly unconscious basis for our everyday sense of what is real.





Aware-ness wrote:And even Jesus failed to do that :

In 1918, Jung argued that Christianity had suppressed the animal element (“On the unconscious,” CW 10, §31). He elaborated this theme in his 1923 seminars in Polzeath, Cornwall. In 1939, he argued that the “psychological sin” which Christ committed was that “he did not live the animal side of himself” (Modern Psychology 4, p. 230).
~~Jung, C. G.. The Red Book: A Reader's Edition (Philemon) (p. 457). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.


The degree to which the historical Jesus did or did not live the animal side of himself is unclear since the New Testament accounts suppress this information. There are legendary and mythological aspects to his canonical "biographies" and a large gap between his childhood and ministry and no statement about whether or not he was married, for instance.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:43 pm



Wholeness, lack of it, causes of this lack, in "white men" -
Jung hearkened back to animism in an abstract way, still a Colonialist of the uncharted mind, rather than a true inhabitant. But, a pioneer, without whom the new Natives of the Psyche would have had a significantly harder time.

Thanks be to Jung. But like Nietzsche, he was a prelude to our own work.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:28 pm

That video is relevant to the White privilege thread.


“Everyone who becomes conscious of even a fraction of his unconscious gets outside his own time and social stratum into a kind of solitude.”

— Carl Gustav Jung, Mysterium Coniunctionis, Par. 258




Jung called us to accept the challenge of what he described as "immediate religious experience" by which he meant religious experience based on a direct encounter with the unconscious. Especially to those whom the rituals of established religion have lost their meaning and efficacy Jung proposed that in the individuation process itself might meet their spiritual needs in a way that the more traditional Western religious practices no longer could. He introduced what in effect was "a new form of religious ritual--a ritual involving the religious like-observation of the contents of the unconscious." [Robert Aziz, CG Jung's psychology of religion and synchronicity, page 221]
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:59 am

Sorry for slow response. I've been caught up in my very own pretty large world of late. But lets carry on. There's tons that can be discussed about Jung, even if we narrow it down to Wholeness. Many links are required to get there, if it's even possible.
Aware-ness wrote:Aligning mind with nature doesn't have to be understood.
felix dakat wrote:True. Articulated knowledge is embedded in unarticulated knowledge. One can "align mind with nature" without knowing what either the mind or nature are. Is there is anything to be gained by understanding the neuro-science or psychology that underlies such an alignment? I think so.

Neuro-science intrigues me. But might just turned out to be the mechanical/electrical mapping our alignings with nature, and, the "All?" I don't know ... and, we don't know ... yet. Stay tuned.
Aware-ness wrote:And awareness and fantasy take up the space of the whole universe.
felix dakat wrote:How so?

Just use your imagination. Everything takes up space, one way or other, down at atomic bottom at least, maybe electrical impulses in the brain, a pixel maybe, or it wouldn't be a thing.
Aware-ness wrote:Nothing can be actually accomplished in fantasyland.

felix dakat wrote:And if by "fantasyland" you are referring to the imagination, nothing can be accomplished without it.

When our articulated knowledge becomes out of sync with our dream, we become dissociated internally. We think things that we don't act out and we act out things that we don't think. That produces a sickness of the spirit. The cure is an integrated system of belief and representation. But, many settle for a system of dogma or ideology. Others settle for cynicism or nihilism. The way is narrow and few find it.

Imagination is fine. But it is just a playground if it, or they, don't produce concrete results. Otherwise imagination can be misleading or completely wrong. I use imagination to fix things. But it often proves not to be helpful. Screw all those systems of belief, and integrations. What about what ever works?
Aware-ness wrote:No fear. There's no cross around here.

felix dakat wrote:Your response is remarkable for it's literalism. Can one be Christ without "crucifixion" in some sense?

Well in the traditional sense, I suppose. I believe in Christ's that don't get crucified : like perchance the twin brother of Jesus.
Aware-ness wrote:Jung's imagination was his playground.

felix dakat wrote:It seems to me you're judging Jung solely on the basis of "The Red Book".

Isn't the read book evidence of Jung's schizophrenia, and his resultant dreams, visions, and the like?
Biographers and critics have disagreed whether these years in Jung's life should be seen as "a creative illness", a period of introspection, a psychotic break, or simply madness." Anthony Storr, reflecting on Jung's own judgment that he was "menaced by a psychosis" during this time, concluded that the period represented a psychotic episode. According to Sonu Shamdasani, Storr's opinion is untenable in light of currently available documentation. Jung himself stated that: “To the superficial observer, it will appear like madness.”It appears that Jung has premeditated the arguments of Storr and (Jung biographer) Paul Stern and, in riposte, declares the analyses of Storr and Stern superficial.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Red_Book_(Jung)

felix dakat wrote:Before you pass judgment on Jung, maybe you should read the 10,203 pages of his 20 volume "Collected Works".

Isn't your field of work is psychology? So have you read all of Jung's Collected Works? Seems to me I wouldn't live long enough to do that. And unless you are a Jung acolyte isn't there better and more important ways of spending your time?

And seems to me, this far into Jung, that, reading the collected works isn't Jung's path to Wholeness.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:34 pm

"The source of things is the boundless. From whence they arise, thence they must also of necessity return. For they do penance and make compensation to one another for their injustice in the order of time."

Anaximander of Meletis

This quotation illustrates the emergence of the meta-myth that became known as philosophy.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:52 pm

Aware-ness wrote: "And seems to me, this far into Jung, that, reading the collected works isn't Jung's path to Wholeness."

Wholeness, the goal of individuation, is, like all ideals, never fully achieved. It is the fully explored territory, the walled garden. But, the territory is never fully explored. There's a serpent in every garden.
Last edited by felix dakat on Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:51 pm

felix dakat wrote:Wholeness, the goal of individuation, is, like all ideals, never fully achieved. It is the fully explored territory, the walled garden. But, the territory is never fully explored. There's a serpent in every garden.

But the serpent is part of you.
You will not be whole until you understand the serpent, where it is coming from, why it exists.

Once you know this, your garden will no long require fencing and you will be whole.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:26 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Wholeness, the goal of individuation, is, like all ideals, never fully achieved. It is the fully explored territory, the walled garden. But, the territory is never fully explored. There's a serpent in every garden.

But the serpent is part of you.
You will not be whole until you understand the serpent, where it is coming from, why it exists.

Once you know this, your garden will no long require fencing and you will be whole.

That's true. But it's true paradoxically. The serpent within you is unknown--the unconscious. The serpent is ultimately the dragon of chaos, the ouroboros the self-consuming serpent who represents the union of matter and spirit, being-in-itself and nothingness, tohu and bohu, the pleroma and the possibility of transformation. It's where everything comes from and where everything returns. To know that is to know the unknowable. Or so it seems to me.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:27 pm

duplicate
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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